The SNP and immigration

[ckn]

Can you honestly imagine any leading politician giving this speech in Westminster?  If they did, does anyone think they'd get through it without being shouted down by the hecklers?

 

https://www.facebook.com/theSNP/videos/10154390503179078/

[tonyXIII]

She is good!

 

She makes the English mob look like just that; a mob!

 

"Who are we? We are the thousands of Lithuanians, Latvians, Poles". (I've missed a lot out) Why didn't our English Remain lot summon up some of that enthusiasm and positivity?

[Saintslass]

She makes the English mob look like just that; a mob!

Really?  You might have missed it but the PM resigned and there's a leadership election on in the Tory party.  In the Labour party there is a farce going on.  There is no other party in England and Wales worth listening to (because remember, Wales voted to leave the EU as well - this appears to be ignored on a consistent basis).

 

Manipulating events to suit your own political agenda is nothing new or particularly admirable.  Sturgeon is doing that at the moment.  She fired off after the Queen's speech opening Scottish parliament; the Queen who referred to people calming down, taking time to think and reflect, which was a far more honest and appropriate speech than Sturgeon's holier than thou ranting.

[tonyXIII]

Really?  You might have missed it but the PM resigned and there's a leadership election on in the Tory party.  In the Labour party there is a farce going on.  There is no other party in England and Wales worth listening to (because remember, Wales voted to leave the EU as well - this appears to be ignored on a consistent basis).

 

Manipulating events to suit your own political agenda is nothing new or particularly admirable.  Sturgeon is doing that at the moment.  She fired off after the Queen's speech opening Scottish parliament; the Queen who referred to people calming down, taking time to think and reflect, which was a far more honest and appropriate speech than Sturgeon's holier than thou ranting.

 

What are you getting at?

 

I was referring to the content of what she was saying as much as the manner in which she said it. Compared to the lies and accusations of the referendum campaign, she sounded statesmanlike.

 

And she didn't rant!

[Saintslass]

What are you getting at?

 

I was referring to the content of what she was saying as much as the manner in which she said it. Compared to the lies and accusations of the referendum campaign, she sounded statesmanlike.

 

And she didn't rant!

She's also forgotten that over 30% of her electorate voted to leave the EU and that Scotland had the lowest average turnout in the whole of the UK.  She needs to get off her soap box and instead listen to the words of the Queen: calm down, think and reflect.

[tonyXIII]

Oh, I give up with you. You really are impossible!

[Saintslass]

Oh, I give up with you. You really are impossible!

You like Sturgeon and like what she says.  I think she is opportunistic and at present not actually basing herself in reality.  I don't know why you are getting annoyed about that.  I'm not alone in my view and you are not alone in yours.  It's just a difference of opinion. 

[tonyXIII]

You like Sturgeon and like what she says.  I think she is opportunistic and at present not actually basing herself in reality.  I don't know why you are getting annoyed about that.  I'm not alone in my view and you are not alone in yours.  It's just a difference of opinion. 

 

It's more than that, though, as your choice of the word "rant" showed.

 

Her speech was delivered calmly and clearly. It identified all the different nationalities that have come to make up Scotland. Her speech was positive and didn't attack anyone. It was positive and constructive.

 

I contrasted her approach to this speech and its inclusive message with the vicious, mendacious nonsense we were served with during the referendum campaign (NB. I don't differentiate between sides!) and found that the referendum lot were lacking any form of positive message (the Remainers couldn't make a cogent case for staying and the Brexiters couldn't make one for leaving) and both resorted to attacking the other side.

 

You are free to express your view of Sturgeon, but to hijack my comment about the content and manner of delivery of this speech is a bit off.

 

FWIW, I have no strong opinion on Sturgeon either as a person or as a politician.

[Tommygilf]

Sturgeon is an opportunist politician as most of them are.

However on Immigration I hardly feel (as a son of a Scot) that Scotland can even begin to compare its experience of migration with England particularly. Of the 330,000 net migration to the UK last year, only 8000 went to Scotland. Ironically therefore, Scotland has a very modest and even dare I say "sensible" level of migration considering its population size, gdp and govt spending through the fact most people that come to the UK come to England.

The holier than thou approach by the SNP doesn't surprise me Salmond does it and Sturgeon has continued it. Most of it I've noticed has now been aimed at the influence of the Tory government in Westminster over Scottish finances, issues such as declining social mobility from Scotlands poorest areas into their free universities are fudged into the whole "its the tories fault" ideology that seems to be still resolute in Scotland in particular.

[Saintslass]

It's more than that, though, as your choice of the word "rant" showed.

 

Her speech was delivered calmly and clearly. It identified all the different nationalities that have come to make up Scotland. Her speech was positive and didn't attack anyone. It was positive and constructive.

 

I contrasted her approach to this speech and its inclusive message with the vicious, mendacious nonsense we were served with during the referendum campaign (NB. I don't differentiate between sides!) and found that the referendum lot were lacking any form of positive message (the Remainers couldn't make a cogent case for staying and the Brexiters couldn't make one for leaving) and both resorted to attacking the other side.

 

You are free to express your view of Sturgeon, but to hijack my comment about the content and manner of delivery of this speech is a bit off.

 

FWIW, I have no strong opinion on Sturgeon either as a person or as a politician.

Fair comment on the rant.  My bad.  It wasn't a rant.  But the content is Sturgeon opportunism all over.

 

Like I said, she should listen to the Queen, whose advice was very sound.

[GURNER]

ok,  there is a lot I like about ms sturgeon (something about her is hot)  but just to give a bit of balance. I will give a link to just one site  but there are more  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/man-arrested-for-offensive-facebook-posts-about-syrian-refugees-arriving-on-scottish-island-of-bute-a6878981.html

My grandfather was the head gardener for the marquis of bute, so I am familiar with the island. The islanders are not exactly happy with the influx. It impacts on their own housing situation ie: refugees are pushed to the front of the queue.

Most islanders head to the mainland for work, many not to return because there isn't work there.

The chance for the refugees to do similar is small. So they are going to be stuck on the island, with growing local resentment. Is that the plan ms sturgeon?...............take the refugees and place them in areas far removed from the real world just to have the figures or do you have a plan for their future?

[Saint Toppy]

However on Immigration I hardly feel (as a son of a Scot) that Scotland can even begin to compare its experience of migration with England particularly. Of the 330,000 net migration to the UK last year, only 8000 went to Scotland. Ironically therefore, Scotland has a very modest and even dare I say "sensible" level of migration considering its population size, gdp and govt spending through the fact most people that come to the UK come to England.

The holier than thou approach by the SNP doesn't surprise me Salmond does it and Sturgeon has continued it. Most of it I've noticed has now been aimed at the influence of the Tory government in Westminster over Scottish finances, issues such as declining social mobility from Scotlands poorest areas into their free universities are fudged into the whole "its the tories fault" ideology that seems to be still resolute in Scotland in particular.

That's a fair point about the numbers. Scotland makes up around 8% of the population so I wonder how Sturgeon would feel if they took 8% of the immigrants every single year (over 26 1/2 thousand).

Single unskilled immigrants earning minimum wage are calculated to cost the British taxpayer £800 a year while those that bring their families (with school age children) this rises to £29K a year.

 

Around 40% of EU immigrants fall into this category. So even assuming they are all single Scotland only has to fund them to the tune of just over £2.6M extra year. If they took their 8% share of these immigrants it would be costing Scotland over £21M a year extra (minimum) to subsidise them, with the actual cost likely to be far higher given some will have families (even if only say 10% of them have families that brings the state subsidy up to over £90M extra a year).

I doubt Sturgeon would be singing the same tune after years of immigration at these levels into Scotland with the associated strains they put on their local services. She would be the first stomping her feet demanding more money from Westminster to pay for it.

[westhuller]

We're I work we get deliveries from a company based in Scotland on a regular basis. All the drivers are Scotish and from speaking to them there opinion of her is not as popular as it comes across in the media. One lad said " she's self centred and will take the country in into recession then walk away with a golden handshake " None of them wanted to leave the UK saying that having to take on the Euro would be a disaster and that they would turn into another Greece.

[Dave T]

We're I work we get deliveries from a company based in Scotland on a regular basis. All the drivers are Scotish and from speaking to them there opinion of her is not as popular as it comes across in the media. One lad said " she's self centred and will take the country in into recession then walk away with a golden handshake " None of them wanted to leave the UK saying that having to take on the Euro would be a disaster and that they would turn into another Greece.

I'm not Sturgeon's biggest fan, but I must admit, she is possibly the most popular leader I have known in my lifetime, and that is from living in Scotland.

[Tommygilf]

That's a fair point about the numbers. Scotland makes up around 8% of the population so I wonder how Sturgeon would feel if they took 8% of the immigrants every single year (over 26 1/2 thousand).

Single unskilled immigrants earning minimum wage are calculated to cost the British taxpayer £800 a year while those that bring their families (with school age children) this rises to £29K a year.

Around 40% of EU immigrants fall into this category. So even assuming they are all single Scotland only has to fund them to the tune of just over £2.6M extra year. If they took their 8% share of these immigrants it would be costing Scotland over £21M a year extra (minimum) to subsidise them, with the actual cost likely to be far higher given some will have families (even if only say 10% of them have families that brings the state subsidy up to over £90M extra a year).

I doubt Sturgeon would be singing the same tune after years of immigration at these levels into Scotland with the associated strains they put on their local services. She would be the first stomping her feet demanding more money from Westminster to pay for it.

Thats precisely my problem with the SNP at the moment, they've not had to come up against the immigration related issues because they've not had mass migration even on a relative level. So they can be very pro-migration to everyone in Scotland.

[westhuller]

I'm not Sturgeon's biggest fan, but I must admit, she is possibly the most popular leader I have known in my lifetime, and that is from living in Scotland.

I think the problem she will have convincing the good people of Scotland to leave the UK is the fact that they will have to take up the Euro. After seeing the effect of the pound and the stock market after Brexit will Scotland have the financial and economic backbone to withstand a Greece financial situation.

[Griff9of13]

That's a fair point about the numbers. Scotland makes up around 8% of the population so I wonder how Sturgeon would feel if they took 8% of the immigrants every single year (over 26 1/2 thousand).

Single unskilled immigrants earning minimum wage are calculated to cost the British taxpayer £800 a year while those that bring their families (with school age children) this rises to £29K a year.

Around 40% of EU immigrants fall into this category. So even assuming they are all single Scotland only has to fund them to the tune of just over £2.6M extra year. If they took their 8% share of these immigrants it would be costing Scotland over £21M a year extra (minimum) to subsidise them, with the actual cost likely to be far higher given some will have families (even if only say 10% of them have families that brings the state subsidy up to over £90M extra a year).

I doubt Sturgeon would be singing the same tune after years of immigration at these levels into Scotland with the associated strains they put on their local services. She would be the first stomping her feet demanding more money from Westminster to pay for it.

Where is that sourced from? Everything I've ever seen points to EU immigrants being net contributors to the UK.

[Bedford Roughyed]

Where is that sourced from? Everything I've ever seen points to EU immigrants being net contributors to the UK.

 

 

I'd guess its because its unskilled EU immigrants rather than all EU immigrants.

[Saint Toppy]

Where is that sourced from? Everything I've ever seen points to EU immigrants being net contributors to the UK.

I'm trying to find the actual report that I read but it was written by an independent economist Paul Ashton who's a tax & benefits specialist from the Economic Research group at Liverpool University.

 

Overall EU migrants are net contributors because the 60% of skilled migrants contribute enough to cover the costs of the 40% of unskilled migrants.

 

In that 60% of skilled migrants the largest nationality are German, followed by Dutch & French. Of the 40% of unskilled by far and away the largest nationality are Polish. That's why the richer countries like Germany & France aren't overly concerned if we restrict benefits access because it barely affects their citizens just so long as we maintain free movement, and also why Poland is likely to be the biggest stumbling block to any deal where we limit benefits access because it will have a massive impact on their citizens.

 

I cant believe you seriously thought all EU migrants were net contributors ?

Someone working full time on a minimum wage would earn just under £14K a year. They'll only pay income tax on £3K of that and will only pay NI on approx. £6K of that, so in total they would only make tax contributions of just over £1400 a year. Then even assuming they spend every remaining pound they earn on items they pay VAT on that still means their total contribution into the system is less than £4K a year.

[Billypop]

I think the problem she will have convincing the good people of Scotland to leave the UK is the fact that they will have to take up the Euro. After seeing the effect of the pound and the stock market after Brexit will Scotland have the financial and economic backbone to withstand a Greece financial situation.

 

That's not a fact, you must try harder.

[Saint Toppy]

That's not a fact, you must try harder.

The legal requirement to join the Euro comes into force sometime in 2020 I believe, however the EU is insisting that all new countries wanting to join the EU adopt it before they will accept their applications.

So for Scotland, technically they could leave the UK and join the EU without having to adopt the Euro as long as they do it before 2020, but their chances of the EU allowing them to do it are pretty slim. Plus the chances of them having a 2nd referendum, separating from the UK, getting all the required structures in place, making an EU application and being accepted in 3 years are virtually zero.

Sturgeon is living in fantasy land

 

No matter how bad she thinks Britain leaving the EU is, its nothing compared to what Scotland would be like if they left the UK.

They would have to pay the full annual fee to the EU (no rebates)

They would be liable for the other Eurozone country bailouts

They're largely an oil based economy, and the price of oil has dropped through the floor since the last referendum and their figures barely stacked up last time.

Britain may have had its credit rating dropped to AA but Scotland would almost certainly start with one of the lowest ratings, meaning the cost of borrowing would be sky high.

90% of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the UK so they are almost entirely dependant on what agreement the UK reaches with the EU.

[Billypop]

The legal requirement to join the Euro comes into force sometime in 2020 I believe, however the EU is insisting that all new countries wanting to join the EU adopt it before they will accept their applications.

So for Scotland, technically they could leave the UK and join the EU without having to adopt the Euro as long as they do it before 2020, but their chances of the EU allowing them to do it are pretty slim. Plus the chances of them having a 2nd referendum, separating from the UK, getting all the required structures in place, making an EU application and being accepted in 3 years are virtually zero.

Sturgeon is living in fantasy land

 

No matter how bad she thinks Britain leaving the EU is, its nothing compared to what Scotland would be like if they left the UK.

They would have to pay the full annual fee to the EU

They would be liable for the other Eurozone country bailouts

90% of Scotland's trade is with the rest of the UK so they are almost entirely dependant on what agreement the UK reaches with the EU.

 

Correct.

[Dave T]

Yeah but itd be exciting and the sky wouldnt fall in.

[Saint Toppy]

Yeah but itd be exciting and the sky wouldnt fall in.

But the circumstances have changed drastically since the last Scottish referendum.

Last time the SNP built their case on them being able to stand on their own financially, being able to keep the pound (which I doubt they would have got anyway) and still being part of the EU.

They wouldn't have any of those things next time (if there is a next time)

The oil price has dropped massively meaning their projected income is greatly reduced so they wouldn't be able to deliver all their spending promises

They wont keep the pound and will almost certainly be required to adopt the Euro meaning they have no control over their currency and would take on the immediate Eurozone liabilities.

They are almost totally reliant on the rest of the UK getting a good trade deal with the EU otherwise 90% of all their trade is adversely affected

 

She might be popular with the electorate in Scotland but good luck selling all of the above to the people

[Dave T]

But the circumstances have changed drastically since the last Scottish referendum.

Last time the SNP built their case on them being able to stand on their own financially, being able to keep the pound (which I doubt they would have got anyway) and still being part of the EU.

They wouldn't have any of those things next time (if there is a next time)

The oil price has dropped massively meaning their projected income is greatly reduced so they wouldn't be able to deliver all their spending promises

They wont keep the pound and will almost certainly be required to adopt the Euro meaning they have no control over their currency and would take on the immediate Eurozone liabilities.

They are almost totally reliant on the rest of the UK getting a good trade deal with the EU otherwise 90% of all their trade is adversely affected

She might be popular with the electorate in Scotland but good luck selling all of the above to the people

whilst i agree with all that, we could stick our fingers in our ears and compare it to past bad times as we would at least control our borders.

Leave out the #projectfear2