Could child abuse claims spread to RL?

[The Daddy]

Are the appropriate safeguards in place to protect our children if we want them to join a club?

[terrywebbisgod]

Are the appropriate safeguards in place to protect our children if we want them to join a club?

Yes.

[Bedford Roughyed]

Could the historical claims spread to RL and all other sports?  Yes, we can't be so naive to think we are somehow immune from society.  

 

Could something happen now?  Yes, again we are not immune.  However there are procedures in place that reduce risk (if followed).  

[Futtocks]

Checks, controls and individual vigilance are all far more stringent these days. 

 

As for what happened in the past, I doubt any sport can assume it is squeaky clean. The Football stories are just the highest-profile ones.

[ckn]

Yes.

See now, that doesn't sit right with me.  The current system only stops those who have already been caught and punished.  It's something that's always annoyed me, you see people proudly stating that they're "safe" because they've passed a CRB check, all it means is that they haven't been caught doing anything.  I have to redo my full enhanced check each year to reassure people that I'm safe to be left alone with their kids when in fact that model of checking is just slightly safer than picking a random stranger off the street and leaving them with your kids.

 

What it also means is that far too many people see that as the benchmark of "safety" and do nothing more then get really confused when someone they "trusted" goes and does something very wrong.  My friend got a new day nanny a couple of years ago and she was proudly talking about how the new one has been CRB checked, I asked if she'd actually seen the certificate and she asked "why should I do that?  Isn't a certificate number proof that she's safe?"

 

The criminal records system should be a basic part of child safety but it shouldn't be the end of it.  What it has done is stop thinking about innovative ways to improve safety while also ensuring that kids keep having fun and the adults don't feel like they're getting accused of things just for wanting to coach them.

[Futtocks]

One positive effect of the blame/claim culture that we have imported from the USA is that people are more alert to anything that'll get 'em a payout, and child abuse is definitely a top headline-maker.

 

No more "keep quiet, repress the shame, don't rock the boat" any more, even from the least responsible parents.

 

The downside, of course, is that false claims can ruin a good person's life.

[Gates1]

At a pro rl club young players in tend not to be involved with the club until they are a bit older (than football clubs) and often less vulnerable. At a pro level this reduces on its own will reduce the risk.

[MidlandsRugbyLeague]

See now, that doesn't sit right with me. The current system only stops those who have already been caught and punished. It's something that's always annoyed me, you see people proudly stating that they're "safe" because they've passed a CRB check, all it means is that they haven't been caught doing anything. I have to redo my full enhanced check each year to reassure people that I'm safe to be left alone with their kids when in fact that model of checking is just slightly safer than picking a random stranger off the street and leaving them with your kids.

What it also means is that far too many people see that as the benchmark of "safety" and do nothing more then get really confused when someone they "trusted" goes and does something very wrong. My friend got a new day nanny a couple of years ago and she was proudly talking about how the new one has been CRB checked, I asked if she'd actually seen the certificate and she asked "why should I do that? Isn't a certificate number proof that she's safe?"

The criminal records system should be a basic part of child safety but it shouldn't be the end of it. What it has done is stop thinking about innovative ways to improve safety while also ensuring that kids keep having fun and the adults don't feel like they're getting accused of things just for wanting to coach them.

The Safeguards in place extend far greater than having a DBS (thats what CRBs are called now). Coaches do Safeguarding as part of their courses and have to do a 3hr workshop on Safeguarding every 3 years to get licenced. Clubs have a Club Welfare Officer and as part of the Clubmark scheme have to prove that they have welfare plans and implemented child protection policies in place. The RFL's safeguarding team also offers very useful advice and materials all year round as well as a very interesting annual conference.

Bad people can and do slip through the net as they can in all sports and of course there will be 'bad practice', but all of the above and more gives the 99.9% of good people involved the tools to be vigilant, recognise what isnt acceptable or 'bad practice' and provides a framework to educate, challenge and where required report bad practice.

You can never be careful enough and you can't rest on your laurels in this area, but there is much more happening than simply DBS checks.

[Lowdesert]

See now, that doesn't sit right with me.  The current system only stops those who have already been caught and punished.  It's something that's always annoyed me, you see people proudly stating that they're "safe" because they've passed a CRB check, all it means is that they haven't been caught doing anything.  I have to redo my full enhanced check each year to reassure people that I'm safe to be left alone with their kids when in fact that model of checking is just slightly safer than picking a random stranger off the street and leaving them with your kids.

 

What it also means is that far too many people see that as the benchmark of "safety" and do nothing more then get really confused when someone they "trusted" goes and does something very wrong.  My friend got a new day nanny a couple of years ago and she was proudly talking about how the new one has been CRB checked, I asked if she'd actually seen the certificate and she asked "why should I do that?  Isn't a certificate number proof that she's safe?"

 

The criminal records system should be a basic part of child safety but it shouldn't be the end of it.  What it has done is stop thinking about innovative ways to improve safety while also ensuring that kids keep having fun and the adults don't feel like they're getting accused of things just for wanting to coach them.

So what happens in between full disclosures?

DBS is an improvement on CRB and further organisational policies can strengthen that but will never prevent a pervert preying if they are of such a mind.

Very difficult question which can border on human rights, privacy etc

[longboard]

Good post MRL

[Lowdesert]

At a pro rl club young players in tend not to be involved with the club until they are a bit older (than football clubs) and often less vulnerable. At a pro level this reduces on its own will reduce the risk.

Unfortunately, we can never be so sure.

[ckn]

The Safeguards in place extend far greater than having a DBS (thats what CRBs are called now). Coaches do Safeguarding as part of their courses and have to do a 3hr workshop on Safeguarding every 3 years to get licenced. Clubs have a Club Welfare Officer and as part of the Clubmark scheme have to prove that they have welfare plans and implemented child protection policies in place. The RFL's safeguarding team also offers very useful advice and materials all year round as well as a very interesting annual conference.

Bad people can and do slip through the net as they can in all sports and of course there will be 'bad practice', but all of the above and more gives the 99.9% of good people involved the tools to be vigilant, recognise what isnt acceptable or 'bad practice' and provides a framework to educate, challenge and where required report bad practice.

You can never be careful enough and you can't rest on your laurels in this area, but there is much more happening than simply DBS checks.

DBS = originally a decent idea crippled at birth by cuts and an unwillingness by the government to be unpopular, it really does not protect kids at sports clubs, for most people involved in it it's no more than CRB with a different name and process.  Most safeguarding plans I've seen are all about protecting an organisation's bum if something goes wrong, that's what CRB was all about "well, we CRB checked him and it came up clean, we're not at fault".  (I have to have DBS checks for two things I do, one standard, one enhanced)

 

As long as you have coaches able to operate on their own you will have risk.  The vast majority of abuse of kids by those in positions of trust comes when they're able to isolate individual kids away from other adults and kids.  The best child protection systems I've seen don't allow kids to be alone with adults, and have safeguards to ensure that happens, yet that comes at a financial and people cost.

 

I wouldn't have anything to do with teaching kids, the paranoia around it adds a level of distrust that I'd find untenable.  I have nothing but admiration for those who will put up with that environment to teach kids.

[ckn]

So what happens in between full disclosures?

There's a DBS update system an employer can subscribe to for certain roles.

[Lowdesert]

There's a DBS update system an employer can subscribe to for certain roles.

Yes, I know that C, but that is if they actually know an 'event' has happened and proved. I doubt offenders would volunteer information.

Education obviously helps, but still, difficult.

[MidlandsRugbyLeague]

DBS = originally a decent idea crippled at birth by cuts and an unwillingness by the government to be unpopular, it really does not protect kids at sports clubs, for most people involved in it it's no more than CRB with a different name and process. Most safeguarding plans I've seen are all about protecting an organisation's bum if something goes wrong, that's what CRB was all about "well, we CRB checked him and it came up clean, we're not at fault". (I have to have DBS checks for two things I do, one standard, one enhanced)

As long as you have coaches able to operate on their own you will have risk. The vast majority of abuse of kids by those in positions of trust comes when they're able to isolate individual kids away from other adults and kids. The best child protection systems I've seen don't allow kids to be alone with adults, and have safeguards to ensure that happens, yet that comes at a financial and people cost.

I wouldn't have anything to do with teaching kids, the paranoia around it adds a level of distrust that I'd find untenable. I have nothing but admiration for those who will put up with that environment to teach kids.

I agree with what you say, but I cant think of an occasion in the last 10 years where Ive been at a junior club (and Ive been to 150+ of them!) where one coach was with the group on their own; because the RFL sets a coaching and supervisory ratio and all the guidance I describe is generally in place through policy, rather than just bum covering as you put it.

Nothings perfect, but I do think the majority of junior RL clubs are getting it right although Im sure all would wish to do better on the limited time and resource they have.

[redjonn]

Of course their is no perfect safe-guarding process for the person that has yet to commit or be found to have committed an offence. Never-the-less their needs to be some safe-guard system in place.

 

The key on top of any safe guarding check is the culture around the organisation, in this case the club. That is a culture or environment where children would be willing to speak out or talk to someone about anything they feel uncomfortable about. That of course includes how it is sensitively handled.  I would imagine that any child would find it very difficult to speak out as cases show that they don't even speak to parents about it, no matter how caring they may be, whom you would have thought it would be easier to take issues to - they seem to bottle it up.

 

If the organisation/club just thinks that the safe-guard checks are sufficient and not working on creating an environment that children will speak up then their are clearly not doing enough.  This would be I would imagine very difficult but certainly should be striven for.

 

I would suggest that many organisations would need to review and improve the environment, especially in a perceived macho environment of the sport, whether that be adults within or peer pressure from other kids.  In fact that would be part of the problem that prevents individuals speaking up and I would wonder if all clubs consider this as much as they could do.  Hopefully all do as much as possible, if not in the past certainly now that the problem has been massively highlighted.

 

If any sporting organisation/club are found to not have a safe-guard focused environment or are not working now to improve that culture within that is part of that safe-guarding environment would deserve severe censure.

[ELBOWSEYE]

Cannot see anything coming out from our sport,at junior level I coached for 15 years and the parents were always involved. I could not see the environment or time were the children under your supervision could be at risk.The environment in football is different with people put at risk in life changing environments.

[Tattersfieldtreiziste]

With football, kids were and are living the dream. Glory, fame, and riches beyond imagination are all there, seemingly within reach. Parents live out their fantasies through their kids. And thereby a conspiracy is formed. And kids keep quiet as complaining ends the dream for all concerned.

RL is much less glamorous, and success would be a part time contract while still working in an ordinary job.

The lure is not there, the money is not there, and the volumes are not there.

But for a clever pervert, a less obvious target can be an appealing one. So I am sure it must have happened.

At which stage, the macho culture helps keep the silence.

And as one poster has already mentioned, having a CRB or DBS means 'not (yet) convicted'.

[Connor mcb]

No recent ones anyway I play I started playing youth rugby this year one on the entrance to every changing room block a poster saying at least two crb checked adults need to be there at once

[The Daddy]

Oh dear

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/13/rfu-141-complaints-adult-midsconduct-2015-16

[The Future is League]

Oh dear

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/dec/13/rfu-141-complaints-adult-midsconduct-2015-16

141 cases in one year. Its not looking good for union at this stage.

[Rach]

141 cases in one year. Its not looking good for union at this stage.

 

I'd actually read the report and say the RFU has come out of this pretty well .

 

Its had the bottle to put its safeguarding processes out in the public domain and crucially produce an exact figure to demonstrate that its processes are effective . ,read beyond sensationalist headlines  and you'll see this 141 is the total number of misconduct cases (poor coaching practice  ,bullying complaints , inappropriate language , racism/sexism all included in these figures ) it has investigated , not 141 instances abuse of a sexual nature of the type that is blighting football as we speak .Don't get me wrong its still 141 too many but as the RFU says out of 100,00 volunteer coaches and half a million kids, its a ridiculously small amount, I wouldn't say on this evidence that things are 'not looking good 'for the RFU at this stage .

 

Maybe time for the RFL to be transparent and produce a similar statement likewise ...

[The Daddy]

I'd actually read the report and say the RFU has come out of this pretty well .

Its had the bottle to put its safeguarding processes out in the public domain and crucially produce an exact figure to demonstrate that its processes are effective . ,read beyond sensationalist headlines and you'll see this 141 is the total number of misconduct cases (poor coaching practice ,bullying complaints , inappropriate language , racism/sexism all included in these figures ) it has investigated , not 141 instances abuse of a sexual nature of the type that is blighting football as we speak .Don't get me wrong its still 141 too many but as the RFU says out of 100,00 volunteer coaches and half a million kids, its a ridiculously small amount, I wouldn't say on this evidence that things are 'not looking good 'for the RFU at this stage .

Maybe time for the RFL to be transparent and produce a similar statement likewise ...

Thanks for the clarification and I take back the 'oh dear'

[Tonka]

See now, that doesn't sit right with me. The current system only stops those who have already been caught and punished. It's something that's always annoyed me, you see people proudly stating that they're "safe" because they've passed a CRB check, all it means is that they haven't been caught doing anything. I have to redo my full enhanced check each year to reassure people that I'm safe to be left alone with their kids when in fact that model of checking is just slightly safer than picking a random stranger off the street and leaving them with your kids.

What it also means is that far too many people see that as the benchmark of "safety" and do nothing more then get really confused when someone they "trusted" goes and does something very wrong. My friend got a new day nanny a couple of years ago and she was proudly talking about how the new one has been CRB checked, I asked if she'd actually seen the certificate and she asked "why should I do that? Isn't a certificate number proof that she's safe?"

The criminal records system should be a basic part of child safety but it shouldn't be the end of it. What it has done is stop thinking about innovative ways to improve safety while also ensuring that kids keep having fun and the adults don't feel like they're getting accused of things just for wanting to coach them.

In fairness you can't have a system that logs people who haven't done anything yet...

But I know what you are saying it doesn't guarantee safety

[Padge]

Publicity encourages vigilance, vigilance discourages the abusers. As with all crimes though as the ability to be caught becomes stronger the ability to avoid being found out becomes cleverer. Vigilance is the key, never let your guard down.