Maximus Decimus

Is that exactly what he says or just the spin you would like to put on it? He talks about poorly thought through expansion clubs and to be honest just because they are expansion clubs doesn't mean that they weren't poorly thought out. A failing expansion club such as Quins probably does the image of our game more harm than it does good. It certainly does more than anything else to give the impression that RL is simply a northern game as it struggles so badly in the south. Face it, if Quins were a northern RU club we would be laughing at them, claiming it proves that the north doesn't want RU.

I think this is about more than the ditching of one person, it's about the profile of the whole game and it is diminishing. A successful national team is part of the answer but even that is only going to do so much because there is only really 1 maybe 2 international teams that it is worthwhile beating. People would soon see through this.

Wasn't there an 8 page pullout in the People for this?

Where exactly is this said?

In 2004 prominent people were talking about relocating them because crowds had dropped massively. You can't budget for Grand Final success. Heck if Quins had appeared in 4 Grand Finals in a row then I reckon they'd have a pretty decent set up down there.

The difference is that they have the money to do it. Their clubs are also entering a high profile competition that gets regular national media coverage. That said Melbourne aren't a roaring success and without their Grand Final wins, they would have also likely been relocated.

The lack of relegation and promotion is a problem but so was the previous system. A return to promotion and relegation is not a simple answer. Even when we had it there were numerous problems and crowds in the lower divisions had been dropping. Most clubs already didn't see Super League as achievable because they were too small. The game is hard to play and the RFL should run different levels where there are easier versions such as 5m and tag. Working it's way down the country is an ideal but not realistic, you need places to actually want Rugby League and you can only move where they do. A lot of work has been done in schools and I read in a teacher paper last year that RL was actually the fastest growing sport in schools. It is now played in 33% of secondary schools in comparison to 66% for Union, which I didn't think was that bad considering our geographical isolation.

It's been mentioned before and isn't necessarily a terrible idea but an unlikely one. It would have to be much more than a renaming though. It would need to be two divisions of 10 sides with similar level salary caps. They would also need to have similar amounts of TV coverage. The reality is that the lower division would be seen as a lower division. This would still create the same issues with Quins, Cats and Crusaders, and their relegations would put their existence in doubt. The threat would be that we would simply be reducing our pool of strong teams again by dropping it 10.

They'd probably love it and rename the sport or something. 'Australian Rugby Footie'

Yeh I left out Australia because it's a slightly different situation. They do get the media exposure and regular national TV coverage. It's also seen off the threat of Union and Soccer looks like it's going by the wayside too. I worry for the game in the UK. The diehards will never let it die but I think we're fewer in number than we like to think we are. Of the thousands attending Super League I doubt more than 15% would watch it exclusively. We're not finished yet, it gives me some comfort that many many people have before written the sport off but when I look at the facts and try to leave out emotion it looks very difficult to see a way out for the game over here. Despite outwardly appearing stronger than many times in the past if you scratch below the surface the signs are possibly more worrying. The decline of the media presence cannot be underestimated, we have also concentrated our resources on a few bigger clubs which has seen a reduction in our geographical spread. This is one of the reasons I often think we shouldn't write off smaller passionate clubs like Leigh and Halifax. Whilst we obviously need to expand and within Super League, we also need to ensure the retention of as many passionate fans as possible, as this is one of our great strengths. All we can do is keep plugging away and play to our strengths. We need to offer a decent alternative to Football and Union and a sold-out Challenge Cup final is a good start. What I was trying to get at in the above post is that we are starting to look less of a decent alternative in comparison to Union if it carries on growing domestically at its current rate.

In response to the general article, it is correct. Rugby League has shown remarkable resilience over the years against the odds but ironically I think we are in a more precarious position than ever before and I think there is a real chance that within a generation we will be a collection of diehards watching with a few hundred others. It's not particularly anybody's fault and the most worrying thing is that there's possibly very little that anybody can do about it. The world has changed and is global and it is these sports that are swamping everything else. People want to be seen as superstars and get the money and fame associated with it. RL is not in a good position when it comes to this. I've said it before but it's remarkable that we're still here. I know of no other sport in our position, that still survives to a decent size despite little national coverage and no special place within the establishment. The two other localised sports that I can think of; GAA and AFL, are under less threat because they are so big in their respective countries and do hold a special place within the establishments. The biggest problem and it pains me to say this, is Rugby Union. Despite being a poorer version of the sport it has sorted itself out on the professional front and is now a much larger sport especially internationally. Whereas we used to have a bigger domestic game they have overtaken us on this and are continuing to grow. It is this difference in the domestic games that may eventually facilitate this demise. We struggle to hang on to our best players now but it is only going to become more difficult when the gap between the two sports grows. They have the media on their side and as such create genuine national sports stars, some who earn in the millions. They offer a European competition that is genuinely interesting and even now a domestic game with bigger crowds than Super League. If I was a 17/18 year old talented RL player and not so staunch in my RL ways, then I would definitely consider switching. Players are doing as well and at a younger age. Football is of course a massive issue for any heartland club but there is definitely a niche there for other sports, I just hope it isn't Union that eventually fills it. I don't like the above facts and they do worry me but it is what I honestly feel. I used to think the sport was so good that it couldn't die and once it was given exposure it would rapidly expand but it isn't the case. You just have to look at the game in France as to what can happen when Union gets so big in comparison to League. Anybody who is any good is poached. You just have to look at the game in and around Manchester to see how quickly we can become a thing of the past. The most annoying thing in my opinion is that as a sport we are going about things in a generally good way with setting down grassroots and the like. We just aren't expanding fast enough in comparison to another similar sport. We need some sort of a big break, like the game taking off in a couple of other nations. The USA would be one such place but that in reality would be a pipe dream.

They'd hardly be squealing with delight and it's not analogous. I presume they were saying it had done damage losing strong clubs in London whereas we've pretty much never had one. The Capital is of course important but Quins are hardly cracking that nut.

Your joking right? Steve going gives Barrow an extra 10 points. Crowd 9305.

So you're admitting that you've been trying to slag off Widnes all along? So I guess the 'having nothing against Widnes' line that you used to spout before totally losing the plot these past couple of weeks, was in fact also a lie.

Who said it was a conscious decision? We aimed to put out a competitive team this year whilst trying to blood a lot of youth at the same time. We did have a competitive side that haven't performed as well on the pitch as we would have liked admittedly. That said we have had injuries and our head coach has been missing for much of it. We've beaten teams like Barrow, lost by a point to league winners Featherstone and made the Northern Rail final. Our biggest defeat is a whopping 20 points. Hardly a deliberate attempt to present sub standard rugby.

For God's sake Mick are you that stupid. I was advising you against lying when people can easily find out the answer using a simple internet search.

Quality. Nah, you wouldn't even be close to a famous forum win. You're small time.

Ad hominem = no argument.

From some it would be mistake, from you with your record, I'd suggest it was a lie.

This is where the problem is. P & R has gone, but people cannot accept it and take their frustrations out on Widnes for playing the RFL's game. Whether we should have P & R back and whether Widnes deserve Super League are two very different arguments.

So as I suspected, you have no argument. If you can't be bothered to read it, don't make pointless little comments like the one you made. Once again, 'one of your lot,' so people don't have their own opinions any more? I'm sure every fan of your club speaks for you as well. Whether or not a Widnes fan comes in spouting nonsense, it doesn't excuse the lies and further nonsense that comes in reply.

So we shouldn't only have to meet the set RFL criteria on and off the field, we should have to try and satisfy every Championship club's fans as well?

So we didn't meet the minimum criteria then? Also Mick, please stop lying. Especially when it can be easily disproven by a simple internet search, it doesn't make your argument any better. It was 4th.

Did I say that? It's amazing how one person's opinion can stand for thousands of people. Do Widnes not have a better junior set up than Featherstone regardless of their junior set-up? We don't ignore it but the fact is that we have a better one than it. If you had bothered to read the post, you would see that I was addressing somebody who was suggesting that we have to refer to 1990 to try to boost our position, when we don't. He then went on about on the field nonsense again which does show how little he understands. As for the last line, it goes both ways, Widnes have been favourites from day one and as such have been attacked from other fans, looking to trip us up wherever possible and make out like we're not good enough. It all comes from jealousy. Widnes fans of course aren't allowed to point out the obvious flaws in the argument or stick up for their own club. We'll see how much you all love Halifax when they are the favourites for promotion.

So what of the actual post did you disagree with? Emoticons are not an excuse for an argument.