Trojan
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Posts posted by Trojan
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Billy Bragg wrote it, but even he says this is a better version
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22 hours ago, Leeds Wire said:
My wife prefers the Animals's version, so do I, I also prefer the Sam Cooke version. The Animals version has this on the B side, on of my favourites of theirs.
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I saw her standing there! Only 55 years old!
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1 hour ago, Phil said:
Thrum Hall? Where’ve you been?
Looking round ASDA by the sound of it. BTW there's still a Gibbet Street in 'Fax.
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The Serpent's Promise (the Bible retold as science) by Professor Steve Jones. A fascinating read by a fascinating man.
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Emmylou Harris singing Chuck Berry's You Never Can Tell. I'm not a country music fan normally, but I must say her version is better than Berry's. Brilliant.
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Since the imposition of "the diet" (I've lost a stone since Xmas) my choices are a bit restricted, but one thing I've come to really like is mackerel fillets, fried in the one cal. spray oil. Really tasty. I'm having them for lunch today.
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6 hours ago, Oxford said:
I love RL's history and heritage but why is there a discussion about a yawn team here? And especially one that has shown itself capable of doing the dirty if they're settling out of court as appears to be the case.
I don't want to debate yoonion or any other sport on here. I certainly don't like them interfering with our TGG legacy, culture, tradition, custom and inheritance. To use a movie metaphor or simile here, in historical importance terms they wouldn't merit a bit part or walk on role in our history they're more of the appearance of Quentin Jerome Tarantino's thumb for film nerds.
And what's more I don't give a monkeys about how hugely chippy this sounds, although you might not believe this I'm not having a go at ru just reminding people this is a TGG forum and who cares where some outpost kfc plays or doesn't play?
Fair comment. But this thread is about the history of the game so given that it grew out of Union you're bound to get some references to it.
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3 hours ago, Padge said:
Just to add to this, the Northern press were writing about the various difficulties the clubs were having with their unions over fixtures and leagues and who controlled what and the thorny subject of professionalism and broken time. Since the professionalism was more of a concern for the RFU the Southern press were reporting on the battles the Northern Clubs were having with the RFU over broken time and since the RFU were not directly involved the Southern press were not reporting about "local" difficulties. This is how I believe the focus of the breakaway became the argument with the RFU over broken-time when really the arguments were over control of competitions in the North. Professionalism wasn't just a concern in Lancashire and Yorkshire but in places like Coventry, Cheletnham and Wales amongst others.
Nevertheless, the extraordinary general meeting in 1893 to discuss broken time, must have taken place. And the fact that the majority of the clubs voted against broken time payments, can't have helped matters. But there must have been some ambivalence to the Northern clubs. After all the England captain was Dickie Lockwood, who played for Heckmondwike and had been accused of professionalism. IN 1890 England even played an international against Wales at Crown Flatt Dewsbury. Presumably there was some sympathy for the problems confronting the Lancashire and Yorkshire clubs. Perhaps they hoped for a compromise, we weren't there, we don't know. But what's happened re Brexit in our own time shows that once the zealots have the bit between their teeth there's no stopping them. They cut off their nose to spite their face, and effectively destroyed England as a force in the game for a generation.
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22 hours ago, Padge said:
They are all still football clubs, the business name is neither here nor there. They play under different rules, hence, rugby union football, association football and Rugby League Football. The you have Australian Rules Football, American Football, Gaelic Football.
They are all the same 'sport' but they are playing under the rules of the organisation they have chosen to be affiliated to.
With the Bradford split both teams can have a claim to the history as both teams have a direct association with the previous club, unique as you say, but unique is not impossible just unusual.
Professor Tony Collins agreed with my view that Bradford et al are the same club and that will do for me.
Funny that, I was watching a video of Fev at Swinton, who play at Sale RU and noticed the signs say Sale FC.
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On 2/24/2017 at 0:37 PM, Mister Ting said:
Nothing pathological about stating Leeds' failings over the decades. Like you, I much prefer other RL over the round ball game.
Forth biggest crowd in the country on Saturday.
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On 2/13/2017 at 9:43 PM, Padge said:
I posted this on the Tony Smith Licensing thread but it is probably better discussed here. It is a look at the events leading up to the split with the RFU, which is nothing to do with broken time. This a version of events from my research into it.
Lancashire and Yorkshire were a pain in the side of the RFU long before 1895. As the story of the eventual split in rugby unfolds you may get confused by all the various meetings taking place. What you need to realise is that there is the governing body, the RFU, there are then two county committees Lancashire and Yorkshire RFU, there are then sub-committees of the county unions representing the senior clubs in each competition. Other meetings were taking place between groups of clubs that had a similar vision for the game.
The first inter county rugby game between the two great Northern rivals was in 1870 and was played in Leeds. At this stage there was no formal County Committees and it was down to the teams in the county to try and organise informaly a county competition. In 1874 Leeds Athletic, Bradford, Huddersfield, Hull and York formed a county committee to oversee the interests of a Yorkshire County team under the banner of The Yorkshire County Club. Other clubs were not content with 5 clubs running county matters which was causing friction between the elite clubs and the rest, eventually the committee of the Yorkshire County Club bowed to the inevitable and became a formal Union of all Yorkshire clubs in 1888.
Form 1870 to 1881 the Manchester Rugby Union club was the equivilant of the Yorkshire County Club and was responsible for county fixtures on behalf of Lancashire. Rugby clubs in West Lancashire wary of the growth of soccer in the area decided to form their own union in November 1881 to look after the interests of all rugby clubs in Lancashire.
In the 1885-86 season 24 clubs took part in the West Lancashire Cup, the cup competition proved popular attracting a crowd as high as 15,000 for a game between Warrington and Runcorn held at Widnes.
By the start of the 1886-87 season membership had increased to fifty clubs and the union introduced a Junior Challenge Cup alongside the Lancashire Cup.
The Lancashire Union at their AGM held on the 31st May 1889 decided to change from knockout cup competitions to leagues. The senior league consisted of eight clubs, Aspull, Warrington, Wigan, Tyldesley, Leigh, Walkden, St.Helens and Widnes.
The league system only lasted for two seasons, squabbling amongst clubs had made the system difficult to manage. The experiment though had sown seeds for the future.
As the Lancashire experiment ended after season 1890-91 the Yorkshire Senior clubs of Batley, Bradford, Brighouse, Dewsbury, Halifax, Huddersfield, Hull, Hunslet, Leeds, Liversedge, Manningham and Wakefield decided that they wanted their own league starting in season 1891-92. The clubs wanted full control of the league. The Yorkshire RFU would not sanction the move as that would mean they were relinquishing control of the sport to the senior clubs.
At a meeting of the Yorkshire R.U. on 15th January 1895 the Yorkshire committe agreed to send a deputation to a meeting with their Lancashire counterparts in Manchester at The Crown Hotel to discuss the propsal of the formulation of a Northern Union.
At the Manchester meeting the decision was made to press ahead with the creation of the a Northern Union and a meeting arranged for 30th January at the George Hotel Huddersfield for all the senior clubs from Lancashire and Yorkshire.
At the meeting on the 30th January attended by Brighouse Rangers, Batley, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Warrington, Swinton, Liversedge, Salford, Hull, Wakefield, Manningham, Wigan, Leigh, Tyldesley, Broughton Rangers, Leeds, Oldham, Rochdale Hornets, Hunslet, Bradford and St. Helens the following resolutions were passed.
1. That the premier clubs of Lancashire and Yorkshire as here represented do form themselves into a union for the purpose of furthering the interests of Rugby football in the two counties.
2. That the union be governed by one representitive from each club, the offucials to consist of president, vice-president, honarary secretaries and treasurer to be selected from such representitives.
3. That the champion club in the first division of the Lancashire Championship and the champion club of the first division of the Yorkshire Senior Competition play a match for the championship of the Union.
4. Any bona-fide playing member of a club shall be eligible to play for any club in the Union, provided he has not already taken part in a match with another club of the Union. If he has so played, permission for his transfer must be obtained from the club for which he has played and he must in addition have obtained the sanction of this competition committee.
Wednesday 23rd January 1895
Yorkshire Senior Competition Committee meet in Leeds discuss a proposal for Northern Rugby Union League. No decision is made about whether to press ahead. It was decided that a meeting should be arranged with Lancashire clubs to see their point of view in Huddersfield on the 8th February.
11th February 1895
Manchester guardian reports that interest in Rugby Football in Lancashire has all but disappeared with the suspension of Salford, Wigan and Leigh and compulsery posponement of fixtures betwee Widness and Aspull, Backley and Ulverston and Walkden and Blackley. The reports also complained about the standard of game in the county matches as being below standard and that the Lancashires match with Cumberland had been scratched as being a pointless excersise due to the weakness inflicted by exclusions.
The rugby union have not yet taken any decisive action in regard to the newley formed Northern Union. It was expectted that the union would receive official sanction at the meeting of the (RFU) committee on Friday night but it was considered suffeciently important to defer the consideration of the question to the next meetig. Presumably this meeting will take place before the Scotland game at Richmond on March 9. It is assumed, of coourse, that the fact of the committee declining for the present to approve the new union is an indication of hostility to it.
At the March 9th meeting the RFU asked the Northern Union clubs to submit its proposed rules for the new union.
The following rules were submitted to the RFU following a meeting of the Senior clubs at the George Hotel on 2nd April 1895.
1. The Union shall be called The Lancashire and Yorkshire R.F.U. of Senior Clubs.
2. That the Union shall be a member of the RFU
3. That it is governed by one representative from each club.
4. The officials to be elected at an A.G.M held alternatively in Lancashire and Yorkshire.
5. Annual subscription 1 guinea
6. Committee of Management to be 4 per County
7. Champion club from each county to play for 'Champion of Union'
The Yorkshire clubs, Leeds, Bradford and Huddersfield declined to sign up due to having large capital debts and felt the Northern Union was to much of a gamble. Lancashire clubs Salford and Swinton also had reservations.
The Lancashire RFU refused to back the senior clubs Northern Union at their meeting on 17th April 1895.
The RFU discussed the proposals from the Lancashire and Yorkshire Senior Clubs at a meeting on the 9th May 1895. The RFU committee passed the following resolution.
"This committee being of the opinion that any such organisation as the proposed Union of Lancashire and Yorkshire Clubs would be prejudicial to the best interests of the game, forbids the formation of such a Union”.
This left the senior clubs of Lancashire and Yorkshire little option but to form their own organisation outside of the RFU.
The whole thing about money is the line-peddled by the RFU, the clubs wanted control of their fixtures and competitions, this was what the Northern clubs were arguing over, broken time was a side-show.
All this is very interesting. And if you say broken time was a red herring introduced by the RFU, I'm prepared to accept it. But it begs the question, why was the RFU so against league and cup comps, when the rest of sport were adopting it. Even cricket, of all sports closest in culture (in a public school kind of way) to Rugby Union had its County Championship and local leagues (the Bradford League dates from 1903) And why the likes of the Rev Frank Marshall went about trying to sniff out professionalism and persecuting those he found guilty of it (Dickie Lockwood say.)
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1 hour ago, Mister Ting said:
Take Revie out of the equation and I doubt they'd be as big as they are now. The support that Leeds now enjoy is largely based on the strong side they had from the mid 1960's through the mid 70's. Great clubs are built on a certain culture. Leeds have lost whatever culture they might have had.
Obviously one of the many pathological Leeds haters. Wait and see. The potential in Leeds is tremendous. They just need someone to push the right buttons. If Leicester had been Leeds I'm sure the revival wouldn't have petered out. BTW I write this as a dyed in the wool RL fan. I watched Leeds a few times in the 70's and it was ok but it doesn't do for me what RL does.
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1 minute ago, Mister Ting said:
That stability is a mixture of the right board and coach/manager, development structures. This should apply to all sports.
Leeds' excuse used to be that the reason they couldn't attract the biggest crowds was that they were from a rugby town. Apart from the Revie era, Leeds United are one of the biggest failures in world soccer.
That's not quite true/ They were the last winners of the Championship and under O'Leary qualified for the Champions League, and in season 2001/2 missed qualification on a disputed penalty call by a ref. They were there or thereabouts. Someone pulled the rug. And O'Leary was sacked followed by any number of managers/coaches of decreasing stature. But even through all the adversity their crowd have by and large stuck with them. Anything like success and Leeds's crowds would be up there with most of the Premiership. But success is not built on permanent change.
The Rhinos have taken advantage of United's dismal performances and increased their crowds through (for Leeds Rugby) an unprecedented run of success. But even back in the Revie days there were plenty of dual fans who followed both teams. I think the team most to suffer from Leeds U's success in the sixties was Hunslet. Championship runners up in 1959 and Challenge Cup runners up in 1965, nowhere near since.
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Do football clubs learn nothing? Look at Man U, they kept the same manager for nearly 30 years and are one of the most successful clubs in the world. Same goes for Arsenal (although there are rumblings)
On the other hand look at Leeds U. The number of managers they've had since O'Leary's demise seems infinite and look where they are. A club from the 3rd biggest city in the land. A club from the biggest city in the land to only have one football club and yet they've been out of the top flight for 12 years. And bankrupt twice. Surely there's a lesson there.
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On 6/30/2010 at 8:53 PM, Jill Halfpenny fan said:
The greyhound stadium was used in the 1970's, they were called New Hunslet at the time if my memory is correct.
They had the gridiron style goalposts, outlawed by the RFL
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19 hours ago, Padge said:
Was it 'advertising' Football, the thing is that League, Union, Association, Australian Rules, etc. are versions of football. Soccer (association) does not have a right to the name.
The thing that distinguished what type of football you were watching, and still does, is the football rules the team played under.
Before the formation of the Football Association (Association, Soccer, rules), the rules used tended to be the rules of the home team and some teams a adopted the rules of others, Winchester Rules, Eton Rules, Sheffield Rules, Cambridge Rules and Rugby Rules where amongst the most common. They all played football, they all still do, they just play the game under a certain set of rules.
I was brought up with if you were going to the football you were going to watch Wigan Rugby and if you were going to the Soccer you were going watching Latics.
Rugby League was certainly referred to as "football" in Wakefield in the 1960's. So asking why the Bullring was chocka with traffic early evening I was told "there's a football match at Belle Vue." Anyone who's seen "This Sporting Life" (1963) will hear the ref. say after the hooker has had his nose broken "they're not fit to be on a football field." And subsequently Arthur Lowe says "that's not what I call football."
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On Look North tonight it showed red kites coming into people's gardens in 3's and 4's taking meat that had been put out for them, in Seacroft (NE Leeds)
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Rosie - The Animals. Extremely rare BBC 1965 live recording
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Snowing in Dewsbury. Keely Donovan says it'll turn to rain, but when?
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Every Time We Say Goodbye, Ella Fitzgerald, pure magic.
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Ronnie Lane and Slim Chance, The Poacher
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I love Rod & The Faces. Proper good time RnR.
Guitar riff on this is priceless. I saw them shortly after they recorded Cindy at the Queens Hall in Leeds, acoustics were terrible, couldn't hear a thing. What can you expect from a former tram shed!
Best cover versions
in Any Other Business / Any Other Sports
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BTW who's the backing singer in the yellow. My last post should be a clue. I didn't know about this until last week.