Dave T

Wire have Vestas, who are an international company (although I must admit to never having heard of them when they signed up!!!)

What's your thoughts on the actual topic of the thread, the financial returns, instead of just having another whinge?

You still had ###### teams around when P&R was in. A poor team doesn't always equal a lack of effort.

He has dropped the obsession, remember he said a couple of weeks ago he won't be talking about the refs anymore. -_-

Buggered if I know. I have seen 7-8k in the JJB and Odsal though after an initially promising 10k at Headingley. I have in my head that the crowds were very low, although many were played in midweek, so not sure they have been given major prominence. Edit: found these on wikipedia: 1980 Lancashire 17-9 1,593 Widnes 1981 Yorkshire 21-15 1,222 Castleford 1982 Yorkshire 22-21 1,738 Leigh 1985 Lancashire 26-10 6,743 Wigan 1986 Yorkshire 26-14 5,983 Leeds 1987 Yorkshire 16-10 9,748 Wigan 1988 Yorkshire 24-14 8,244 Leeds 1989 Yorkshire 56-12 10,182 Wigan 2001 Lancashire 36-24 10,253 Leeds 2002 Lancashire 22-18 10,000 Wigan 2002 Lancashire 36-28 9,283 Leeds 2003 Yorkshire 56-6 8,258 Bradford The 2002 Wigan one was not that high, and was less than 8k IIRC.

Yep, would see them supporting both, in reality I would expect the fans to cheer for the team with their players in! As I said, I don't see this as a kind of Origin for the fans, they have had chance to support Roses games, or even full blown tests and haven't really got behind them so this is more about exposing more English players to the higher level of intensity that people cry out for.

Yep, was just a quick team from the top of my head. TBH I see no reason why there would be such an inbalance. We only beat France by 30odd or whatever it was in the 4N, and that England A team I have named would beat France well.

Tbf, there is nothng riding on the England v France game apart from will England get 40,50 or 60. BTW there is no bigger fan of the international game than me, so I am not suggesting we sack that off, just that we look at all options. You know with the England v England A game you are getting the best 34 players available to England on one pitch. If it is split by East v West or Yorks v Lancs, that isn't the case. We could have 4 or 5 options at halves who play for Lancs and none for Yorks. Personally I'd like to see us stop worrying about emulating Origin, and get some proper Test matches against some of the other teams, PNG, Tonga, Samoa etc.

If this was as a replacement for the France game, perhaps as a trade off that they wouldn't be selected for that, then it is something that could be worked through.

But everything suggested just sounds fake. England v Other Nations is probably the best, but then we get 17 English players playing, which is slightly different to my proposal. Yorks v Lans has failed time and again. England v France - people don't turn up and complain about it when they do. The draw is that it is the England team playing.

TBH I'm past caring about wanting to get something to emulate the State of Origin for the fans. The miserable bastards don't want it, as has been seen time and again. People can moan about lack of intesnsity all they want, but that isn't the reason they didn't turn up, it is because fans are so obsessed with their own club and not the actual game that they can't see the past their own town. I do think you would get a crowd of 7-10k and played at Warrington or Widnes would have scope for some growth. I do think it would be an interesting game, and whilst it wouldn't have the passionate rivalry, so what, most fans are only bothered about their local derby anyway. Imagine a game between: Widdop 1 Wellens Briscoe 2 Riley Bridge 3 Gleeson Shenton 4 Atkins Hall 5 Fox Tomkins 6 McGuire Eastmond 7 Myler Graham 8 Crabtree Roby 9 Lunt Peacock 10 Lynch Burgess 11 Westwood Ellis 12 J Tomkins O'Loughlin 13 Sinfield Pryce 14 Moore Morley 15 Carvell Scruton 16 Fielden Wilkin 17 Burrow That for me would be a far better game than against France, or an All Stars team, and would be a meaningful trial, with 34 top English players up against each other. There would be some great battles there and would give the likes of Fielden and Crabtree a real chance to win their place back, or for Carvell to show he deserves a chance. The halves would also be a great battle. In terms of the crowd, we only got 7k against France, so it couldn;t be much lower IMHO.

Some good points, and I suppose the problem is that almost all of the revenue is guaranteed back to the clubs. Much of the revenue is the TV deals and Sport England grants which in effect is mainly directed straight to the clubs. I would expect that the RFL gets money from limited sponsors and a few events (Grand Final and Challenge Cup) which would allow them to run the game. Without a succesful International game, I struggle to see where they could boost their reserves. I would suspect that is where the Union money comes from in the main, through ticket sales and commercial activities. They have at least 6 or 7 full Twickenham events with major corporate activity to bring money in, which League does not have. The international game is crucial for so many reasons.

I agree. For me, the only really worthwhile England trial match is England v England A. That way you have players who already have the shirt, and 17 who want to outplay their opposite numbers. As mentioned elsewhere, the halfback and forward battles could be very very good, as we seem to finally have plenty of options there. Play it somewhere sensible, don't worry about the crowd, use it as a trial to name the squad. I'm sure the likes of Crabtree, Pryce, McGuire etc would love the chance to regain their spot by outplaying their opposite numbers, and it would be interesting to see the hookers head to head, as well as the back rowers where we are spoilt for choice.

Yep, I just don't think people bought into it as an individual event, or as a Test trial. I would like to see the England manager overseeing the whole thing, with some input in selection if required. It also needs to be at least two games. I also think there is more choice in key positions which is worth testing now. In the halves you could have Tomkins and Eastmond vs Pryce and McGuire, and still have Myler and Burrow on the bench. The forwards would also be very interesting, and you could test out the riskier three-quarters who appear to do well at club level, but maybe are a risk at Test level.

Agree with much of it, but sticking to the Origin concept for now. The first game back in the SL era was at Headingley which attracted a 10k crowd and was very enjoyable. Based on that they decided to make it a home and away series the year later. The first game at Wigan was played in front of around 7k, despite the players going at it (including a huge brawl in a scrum). Not sure about the 2nd game can't remember it. The next year they went back to one game, and played it at Odsal. Yorks battered Lancs and they sacked it off. The organisation was poor, and it wasn't given a chance by the RFL. Had they played the Lancs game at Warrington or Widnes for example, a 7-10k crowd would have created a good atmosphere based on the RL that was provided. Doncaster or similar would do the same in Yorks. They made a good start bringing it back, but played it at completely wrong venues before giving it time to grow after a very positive first year.

I'm sensing we aren't going to agree on much on this one mate, as I didn't find that one too bad, with the write up about right. IMO he clearly went for the shoulder charge, the impact was with the shoulder, at high pace and he was gtting stepped. Once the player had beaten him with that step, his lower arm came up, and I don't feel that it was an attept to elbow the ball carrier. I think it looked more spectacular than it actually was, and the actual offence was that the shoulder charge was high, and much of that comes from the difference in size in players (although that doesn't excuse a high tackle). When you look at the speed, and the fact that there was no raised arm, and the fact he was stepped, then I can definitely see why it would be classed as accidental rather than reckless or intentional.

You may see getting beaten by a better team as letting us down, but I have never questioned their effort or commitment. And tbh I was referring to the players as a whole, ie the 34 players involved in the game.

I think that is very harsh. Whilst some of the media comments from people who should know better are poor, the players very rarely let us down on the pitch. The fact that the England games didn't sell out a month before the 4N was a disgrace, those tickets should be like golddust in grounds that size.

I probably would myself, was just stating that if it did come to Brown being there, I would be hopeful that he could do a good job.

On this note, this is one of the reasons II get touchy when a thread becomes a Wire v Wigan thread. I actually have a lot of time for Wigan, they are my favourite rivals, and as a club they are an example for many others. Unfortunately, your opinion can be dismissed simply because of the rivalry (which I appreciate I was guilty of with you - see above). Saints are the ones who get to me!

In that case, I sincerely apologise. It was said in jest, in a 'here we go down the Wire v Wigan route' that many of these threads go down whether we mean them to or not. Didn't mean anything personal, it was purely based on the fact that you were a Wigan fan and I'm a Wire fan.

I'd be happy for the Aussies to have a rest in 2012, it is their choice. It absolutely shouldn't be up to the RLIF to decide whether they play or not. I don't believe other sport's governing bodies arrange the fixtures for their nations, apart from the major tournaments. Everything else is invitational and arranged between countries I believe. If the Aussies don't want to play, we should arrange a tour to New Zealand. We should play PNG to start, play the winners of the Pacific Nations Cup (other than PNG) at their place and three tests in NZ. I'm happy to see the GB team used as a touring team.

Can't Brown cover centre as well? Maybe that will get him in the squad. I think we should stop being worried about putting players in. As we saw last year, Tomkins and Eastmond did a great job, and I'm sure there are a few others out there that would do well given half a chance. I'm not Brown's biggest fan, but I wouldn't be as upset now if he got in as I would have been 12m ago.