redjonn
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Posts posted by redjonn
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2 hours ago, bobbruce said:
I’m not sure what you mean he can’t play in it he’s banned but the reserve game will clear his ban.
Well yes, but when he is selected for the reserve game does he have to play or can he just be an unused bench interchange...and hence my question still count as done his ban
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As a matter of interest.... does the player have to play a minimum number of minutes in the match to count towards the ban, i.e. French just has to be on the bench or comes on for the first minute and then subbed, etc etc
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56 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:
I will take your word for it Chris, in previous games I have seen Sinfield he didn't look capable if bossing any game.
Well I suppose he will be one half of your great halfback partnership next season, I will reserve judgement till I have seen them perform.
He played well but on the other hand he had plenty of time last night, in that he wasn't put under pressure and was able to show his ability. He was very deliberate in his kicking which actually meant he was somewhat slow in executing the kicks so I wonder how against a more pressing team he would of executed his kicks/passing.
Never-the-less he has only just turned 19, played well and is slowly developing and hopefully the club continue to slowly develop him within a winning team next year...
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4 hours ago, Ullman said:
It was that long ago some of us were still getting to grips with decimalisation.
and some of us still are if we include the corresponding change to metric as part of that process .. e.g. I still can not get to grips with buying petrol with litres, still buy in pounds rather than kilograms, get confused when the Doctor/Nurse discusses my weight in Kilograms and we both get confused in trying to convert to what I understand... and when I'm converting a cookery recipe - is it 450g per pound or 500g and may be why I just can't cook the sunday joint right....
and yeah, i still think you should be able to contest/kick the ball at a PTB....
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13 hours ago, Hopie said:
Look I get it, this is the internet so there has to only 2 sides to any discussion and you are supposed to "pick a side", but the question was why Austin left, not if Leeds are right to do this or not. From a player's perspective his actions seemed logical to me, and for others to suggest he is in the wrong for leaving in this scenario seems to me harsh at best.
Leeds were better with Austin than without him this year, but they can certainly do better in most positions based on their current squad so its arguable either way if they should offer him a deal or not. I think they should have been more open about their positions, but recruitment and retention hasn't been a strong point at Headingley for many years now, there are plenty of reasons for that, and I doubt all of them are public knowledge.
Your right that Austin made a logical choice in that from my understanding he wanted at least a 2 year deal and wanted his contract position sorted sooner than Leeds seemed to want to sort and considering his family needs for some sort of certainty as to going back to Australia or not.
I am not as sure that any logic would suggest that airing his views on Sky/in public would have helped his cause assuming he preferred to stay at Leeds.
I am not as certain as you that Leeds had been better with Austin except for a very few games if we look across the whole season he was playing. Accepting the fact that Leeds recent performances have been particular poor and they lack options for half back through more recent injuries. Austin period in SL has always seemed to me to be a player that one could describe as "flatters to deceive" and despite the occasional good performance which is often not more than a big booming high kick with no end result with regard to consistency. I would have been surprised that Leeds would want to give him a 2 year contract and hence the situation materialised as it did and he took the right option for himself and family.
Anyway apart from Austin situation one can not disagree that Leeds recruitment and retention over recent years has been poor. In particular signing of experienced higher level players needed to complement and carry the developing youngsters.
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The attributes that many would quote from watching a SL game, especially after what are a relatively few nail biting games, are equally applicable to most team sports, whether that be soccer, netball, ice hockey, hockey, etc etc. So lets take away the end-to-end play, intensity, closeness of scores that either side could have won, last minute drama, etc etc as that happens in most team sports. Now tell me what is so it that makes the sport the greatest sport...
It certainly isn't simplicity and hence ease of understanding to the new watching public...
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5 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:
It’s not quite true about the dispensation I believe a club is given £100,000 in total, it’s not on a player by player basis
yes, I believe so, it is a maximum total no matter how many... not a great amount given the resource to develop players.
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2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:
You are aware aren't you that any player that is brought into the first team squad through club development has a dispensation on the Salery cap and his value is much reduced, leaving more cap space to spend on other established player's.
I have had a look at the Rhinos squad, and it totals 38 in number, 10 of which I have not heard of albeit these may be lads coming through from the academy and even in a very ordinary season not many of those 10 have been given an opportunity, whilst and it is my opinion there are others who have been brought in and being selected who are nowhere near the quality that one would expect the biggest and richest club in the NH to have.
There is something so obviously wrong with retention and recruitment at Oeeds Rhinos and as @Chrispmartha says things have not been right since 2015.
don't disagree.... I think both the overly optimistic view of the home grown talent together with what should be the top player recruitment to complement that has been poor. As I said the mismanagement of the salary cap.
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19 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:
The squad has to be taken as a whole imo, although I would accept that through the season it has gotten worse (often through self inflicted measures).
I don't see it as that "inherited" tbh, I think this is an overstated point. 9 players left last season, 9 were brought in, nearly all going into the top 25. More players have gone since.
I get your point but I do think the salary cap, say we say mismanagement, meant little monies for bringing in top talent. Key now that salary cap appears to be in a better position that significant improvements in personal are made to the squad.
I guess you would relieve Smith of his duties today, I'm of the opinion I would give him the pre-season and first six game of next season. Hopefully he has learned his approach to pre-season was a mistake and a key part of where we are now. Having said that if their is a high calibre coach available today I may be persuaded.
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2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:
I think they aren't artificially high. Leeds expect to be challenging for every trophy on offer every year based on the status of the club and resources available (especially in comparison to some others). Having a squad not good enough is a failure to those expectations. FWIW I don't think the squad is that bad, there is some real proven quality in the team, but they are not playing to a level greater than the sum of its parts. To me that is down to a downright negligent coaching approach.
I would reposition your point and say that instead of artificially inflating expectations, the run late last season masked a lot of issues.
Not sure I agree with your comment on the current squad. That is the squad currently available to play (taking account of non availability of players). I think back to the highly successful Leeds team and note what would be considered the work horses of the team, likes of Delaney, Ablett, JJB, etc . All of those "work horses "are better in quality of the best players available to play squad in my opinion.. Anyway thats my gauge the Delaneys/Abletts, the overlooked solid performers of not so long ago .
Other top six squads have significantly improved this year, whilst Leeds have at best stood still. That's the squad Smith has inherited... This includes an overly optimistic assessment by the club of the capabilities of the younger members that have recently come through to be part of the team/squad - its a reoccurring theme that Leeds have a great set of youngsters coming through over the last 10 years.
I agree that Leeds should always be in a much better position but the resources are capped for players, although those resources mean better facilities and coaching staffing levels. I never understand why Leeds isn't also a coach development hot bed, that is a recruitment and production of coaches that regularly move into top teams given the resources the club have.
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4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:
Coaches have come and gone in that time, D of R has been appointed and left, but throughout there has been one common denominator Chris, if Leeds Rhinos was a big business concern I would strongly suggest that the shareholders would be questioning the matter.
Maybe, if you take just the mens first team the last few years. If you take the overall running of the business then one could suggest he has done a reasonable job in the last few years.
The stadium has been rebuilt and is seen as one of the best RL stadium, the commercial and sponsorship side is 2nd to none and it is the primary revenue source and far beyond any other RL club and holds comparison to any other sports, the club have expanded the number of teams - Womens RL, wheelchair, PDRL, LDSL and Netball teams, the facilities proffered to the clubs teams are comparable to any RL club and better than most, the clubs foundation compares with any RL club and arguable the best of the RL lot, the networking with the council and universities are excellent, not forgetting the conferencing and hotel side of the business etc etc. The CEO has and is key to those aspects.
Never-the-less the first team is the primary sports team and this has suffered from poor recruitment over the last 6 to 7 years has not been at the level one would expect for Leeds. That poor player recruitment one would suggest is impacted by selecting the wrong head coaches since McDermott.
Maybe looking in from the outside one may suggest the board needs fresh blood to ensure the focus and accountability is stronger.
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1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:
The point is there is no direct answer, as much as fans want simple answers to more complex situations.
It started by the club mismanaging the succession planning in 2015, along with neglecting the academy side of things.
Disruption of the stand renovations maybe meant eyes were taken off the ball elsewhere.
Poor recruitment on the playing and staff side.
I could probably go on but those that think Rohan Smith is the problem are incorrect IMO he’s the one actually trying to change a lot of the above, that was what he was brought in to do, unfortunately for fans but fortunately for opposition fans and pundits it will take s bit of time.
I think your comments are accurate/correct. Never-the-less I am concerned that some of the players, namely in the forwards, look shadows of themselves.
Leeds couldn't cope with Catalans physicality and the likes of Holroyd & Olenzki as examples seem to me not only performing poorly but physical seem literally shadows of the physicality they once had. They seem in comparison to Catalan lack the strength and power to provide any sort of arm wrestle or defence against Catalans forwards. In fact Catalans wingers looked to be more physical capable when you compare their body shapes. The other prop Sam Lisone seems to have gone the other way carrying too much excess. So I guess I'm questioning the new conditioning team that was been brought in and part of Rohans overhaul.
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29 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:
I think there is a lack of a JP on the field though, and Martin has always struck me as a nice but not intimidating leader.
Was it Holroyd that Newman had a bust up in the tunnel with?
I think that was what was reported in one game.
Mind you I have observed Newman having a go at other players on the pitch when someone has made an error or not been were Newman thinks he should have been when a pass from him goes astray - Handley & Sezer as just an example in the Huddersfield game.... plus most games.
I get the sense he wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea as a team mate.... seems quick to point a finger at someone else and a bit of a gobby bully type.
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14 hours ago, Tommygilf said:
Newman is a classic example of where the squad has been in recent years. There's no-one to take him under their wing, or give him a good talking to that is senior and longstanding in the squad and of that sort of character.
He needs direction, leadership and control, yet he's playing like its under 9s at times.
you may be correct, but how do you know that hasn't and not continues to be done. I would have thought Martin as an international captain was somebody that may do that, as well as others. Plus the club still have JP and JJB around the club whom could and may well be doing what you say.
He may just be someone that listens to himself and others outside of the club... it does happen and I guess we could name a few.
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1 minute ago, Chrispmartha said:
I do agree he’s had a poor year.
We also dismantled Wigan at home this year with 12 players, again with Wigan fans saying Pert wasn’t up to it, what a difference a few months makes!
Just on Gannon playing 6, that was only the first or second game it’s actually happened, and we haven’t got any halfbacks, not sure that was the issue yesterday.
yes, Gannon was far from any reason for the actual game yesterday. I think I gave a long winded view to where the game went away from Leeds to a big defeat in earlier comments in the thread.
As I alluded to Pert was certainly getting bad reviews from some/many Wigan supporters comments, yet now I don't think any of them would put their hands up to their previous observations on him. We are a frickle lot at times, lacking any patience.
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17 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:
What solid facts do we know about weaknesses in the club? Which of the following is good, medium or bad?
Is it finances? /Penny pinching?
Poor youth system ?
Recruitment and man management is poor?
Head coach and training /tactics are poor?
They can't all be good so which ones aren't?
Without being inside the club its hard to answer. Personally observing from outside I get the sense that the whole setup of the club is stale. More or less the same board, senior management/administration of the club seems in aspic to me and new blood has been needed to refresh the whole fabric.
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1 hour ago, rhinos78 said:
Smiths had a shocker this season, anybody saying otherwise is deluded.
His approach to pre-season was a ###### take
He's got a phobia of playing players in their strongest position, Morgan Gannon a prime example, confidence looked shot yesterday at the end of Smiths season long obsession of thinking he can play 6, centre, or whatever else, because he did for siddal u12's or something
Wants to be the smartest person in the room, trying to reinvent the wheel of how the game should be played, often going against the core principals of successful RL, as the table suggests
Now we'r in this constant cycle of the Leeds coach needing time to get ‘their squad‘ and another 'rebuild' that takes years, when coaches at Salford just about yearly and this year Leigh, put squads together on the fly, and have them playing good rugby and finishing above Leeds.
He oversee's error ridden bunch who play some of the dumbest rugby you are likely to see and often dont seem ready for a game against teams in and around them at the bottom of the table. Listening to the players they seem to think its acceptable to scrape into the play offs (even failed with that) which all screams a poor attitude which a coach should be on top of.
All that said, he was a breath of fresh air last season, and he may turn it around next, i really hope he does, but this season, he's got too much wrong. Its the hope that kills you, this year was the first time in a long time i was going into a season thinking we had the right coach at the helm...Then Pre Season started.Hard to disagree with anything of your comments.
Your last paragraph shouldn't be forgotten too easily as the team did well and played very well to get to the grand final and maybe if Sezzer had played, whom was playing very well at the time, they may have had a closer game. Never-the-less did OK in that final.
As such I would give him another season rather than start again. I think he needs to look at his supporting cast of coaches and maybe bring additional support/replace which is a key aspect of being head coach.
My strongest criticism of him would align with your pre-season comments which seemed to be around getting versatility into the team. It back fired in starting the season poorly, resulting in loss of confidence and subsequently have too much to do to get into play-offs which meant having more mental pressure with must win games. That early season start made it so difficult with other teams having improved from previous seasons.
I would hope he has learned but the previous season and turning the team around to produce excellent performances to the play-offs earns him sufficient time of next season for me. Not to forget the complete demolition of Wigan in the play-off last season which led to many disgruntled Wigan supporters suggesting Peet was not up to the job. In other words we as fans often haven't a clue and like to thrash-out without much thought at times.
I think you have hit the spot in your comments.
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12 hours ago, Tommygilf said:
I agree it was symptomatic of everything that has been bad with Leeds this year. Dire execution in pretty good positions. Total lack of direction at key moments.
However, to be nilled, at home, and to concede 50 points in the process, is dreadful, unacceptable even.
Yep, would agree.
Only mitigation was the heat. That is wigan control of game and pinning leeds back had a heavy energy sapping impact. After 25 to 30mins leeds were spent and the tiredness impacted their play.
Yep same conditions for wigan but they through their excellent control and play didn't have the same energy sapping struggle. So I was not surprised by the 50pt margin. It was clear around that 25min stage leeds were shot and staring a big defeat in my observation.
Huge problem was not having the capability of breaking wigan stranglehold on them.
A better kicker with a longer kick range may have helped, maybe hooley should have been used as he has a boomer of a kick.
Again as you say...they were dreadful...
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6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:
Yeah might have to put a dictionary definition up next to the word defend to help them.
That was awful pal. I get that you can be bad and RL is often a momentum game, but to get beat like that at home is dreadful.
It was a poor display from Leeds for sure. The game was lost around the 25min mark with leeds energy levels depleted.
For me wigan had a good game plan and executed it well in those first 25 to 30 mins. Smith had oodles of time for his field kicking. He kicked early in tackle count. The kicks pinned leeds back and they had to kick from deep. Unfortunately the field kicking from both martin or sinfield were poor. With wigan on first tackle hitting close to halfway. Thus leading to attacking kicks and the initial trys. After about 25mins of struggling to make yards and the defensive effort they lacked energy and game was gone.
From then on wigan just picked them off with a very professional rl performance full of confidence. Making easy yards and patiently awaiting the gaps in leeds defence.
Leeds probably only had two moments of attacking play in wigans last 20 in the first half. One of which summed up leeds attacking decision making of the whole season.
That is cam smith receives ball on 5th tackle running across just in front of wigan try line defence... the wigan player moves to the right exposing a big gap between two defending players just in front of try line. Any other play maker in another team would have done a grubber kick to force goal line drop out to build pressure. Smith just passes to player in little space and the wigan defence easily close the play down.
For me that just summed leeds all season decision making.
Sorry to be long winded but just looking for an analysis of why leeds performed so badly whilst accepting they fielded a weakened team.
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54 minutes ago, gingerjon said:
"His feet stay planted"
He literally lifts his feet and moves into the player.
That is VR commentary utterly divorced from what is happening.
yep, would agree it was an incorrect call in my opinion. Their again it wouldn't fit the narrative of Saints always getting the rub of the green from Ref's, and whomever the opposition, in this case Leigh, getting duff calls that caused loss of game.
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4 hours ago, Tommygilf said:
I think there's poor management and recruitment at play clearly.
you could be right and the club have underachieved for a while now. Never-the-less one could look at say Catalan who are losing quite a few players at end of season or even Saints whom lose a lot of youngsters given other comments in this thread have focused on losing players come through the academy. A natural aspect for clubs that produce players but salary cap stops you keeping everyone you may wish. Maybe some of those early career decisions Leeds may of chosen the wrong one's to keep.
My perspective would be that the club have more-or-less had the same people at board and department/administration level for a good while. Sometimes you need new blood to come in. Plus not keeping ex-players around unless specific coaching jobs, all-be-it shows good loyalty.
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On 29/08/2023 at 23:12, bobbruce said:
Football has had at least 7 law changes this season.
well yes, but they are not changing the play on the park... so I don't think that is a comparable example between the codes changes.
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33 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:
Noticed Fax had their LED screen in place when we played Widnes last Sunday. We celebrated seeing that and the extra points it would bring us like we had just won the cup.
30 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:You do realise a 72" 4k TV doesn't count?
How about using the old lights from Blackpool...now they have laser lights...
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58 minutes ago, Derwent Parker said:
results are better than spread sheets
Cant remember ever cheering or getting drunk about a spreadsheet
not been doin any book keeping or accountancy work then.... its fun to manipulate them so you get the answer yer want... and then hit the pub chuckling to yerself...
More disciplinary controversy
in The General Rugby League Forum
Posted
Yep...