Jump to content

Kear sees the light on franchising


Recommended Posts

But then I'm a disgrace and speaking to me is like speaking to a young child.

Thats an insult to a young child. I wouldn't have thought any kid would dream of racking up 26,000 pointless posts on a forum of which the majority lead to threads being locked.

People say Rugby League "is the greatest game" but for a top flight (meaningless) game this is embarrassing to say the least and shows to me the current model of franchises and expansion isn't working.

Edited by PJT
Link to comment
Share on other sites


  • Replies 209
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I must apologise to you mate. When I got into RL (embarassingly it was only 1996) I had no idea how long you had been following RL. If only I had known, I would never have got invovled in your game and left it well alone. Sorry. I will cease following RL immediately and leave it with you real fans who greated the huge game that almost took over the world before 1995.

A fair and honest game for those who really do appreciate it is all I ask. Have we took over the world or do we look remotely to have taken even the smallest step towards doing so since you graced us with your presence in 1996? I have been following the game for a long time, apologies for being born so soon, and it's not my game, just the opposite, which is the crux of all this animosity.

The game belongs to everyone, not just the chosen few in the eyes of Lewis and Wood.

Wedding Films For The Discerning by Picture House

Free Showreel DVD On Request

http://www.picturehouseweddingfilms.co.uk/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everyone? :lol::lol:

You mean, you and all those who meet your approval? :rolleyes:

Repeat! The game belongs to everyone, not just the chosen few in the eyes of Lewis and Wood.

I'm a RL fan with opinions just like everyone else on here. And I pride myself in being able to respect others who may have differing opinions, without having to resort to abrasive arrogance and bad manners.

Wedding Films For The Discerning by Picture House

Free Showreel DVD On Request

http://www.picturehouseweddingfilms.co.uk/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats an insult to a young child. I wouldn't have thought any kid would dream of racking up 26,000 pointless posts on a forum of which the majority lead to threads being locked.

People say Rugby League "is the greatest game" but for a top flight (meaningless) game this is embarrassing to say the least and shows to me the current model of franchises and expansion isn't working.

Ignore him m8, he does his name calling behind backs and in secret.He is the sort of bloke that trawls through internet forums for things that may offend HIM then reports the person or persons in secret i have no time for people like that.

Edited by LOWFIELD
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes of course, all it can take is a rich backer to pull out and several SL clubs could be stuffed in an instance.

If you look at Superleague it's either well off clubs with good turnovers from high attendances or not so well off clubs backed by rich businessmen.

Except for er, Cas and Wakefield, and guess who are most tipped to be out!

To be fair these two clubs manage to stay away from the bottom of the league, which is a good effort, but if say they went to make way for Toulouse - who promise rich backing in SL and Widnes who have a rich backer, then we will finally end up with 14 SL clubs all with money and 22 small NL clubs all with no money.

The gulf between the divisions will then be enormous.

There'll be no practical prospect of P & R and the only way to be promoted will be by default i.e. a rich backer pulling out of an SL club.

Then we may see a small NL club get in- but what chance will they have?

probably the same chance that similar clubs had before SL. Not much of one.

If clubs are ambitious they shouldn't be satisfied with being 'small', they should strive to grow. There are clubs outside SL who are doing this-see previous posts about this.

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The game belongs to everyone

Correct, and large parts of it are doing superbly well.

Summer Conference is taking expansion to parts of the country the sport could only dream of seeing the game played in even 20 years ago. I've not seen a lot of National Conference prior to this year, but I've seen an awful lot in the season thats just gone and what a splendid, passionate and intense competition that is.

I think our biggest problem is the Championship and Championship 1, they fall between two stools, more often than not underfunded clubs who's growth potential is limited due to being on the door step of some of the biggest clubs in the sport. I suspect its not a problem thats going to be fixed without causing more than a bit of hurt. But its the legacy of having a sport that has failed awfully to expand beyond its heartlands for over a century.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think we have pretty much exhausted the rational arguments on here and we are left with entrenched positions where few are willing to accept that there are two sides to every coin.

Personally, I think P&R was not working because the promoted teams could not recruit players of the quality needed in the time they had available. I know that HKR managed it, but the others were just taking it in turns to be promoted/relegated. Licensing offered a different way of organising things, with a chance to build stability. It also alienated some clubs. I think that aspect has been badly handled and the cake is being divided unfairly, but I have no control over that.

Most importantly, licensing has not been given a chance to work yet. We have not even completed one cycle of it. It may turn out to be a flop, but to advocate scrapping it now is nonsense. Instead, we should look more closely at ways to alleviate the problems faced by the non-SL clubs. And, before anybody says "more money", please remember that few clubs have shown any inclination not to squander money in the past.

My point is more about unseen factors associated with this. P & R was far from perfect and I'm still not advocating bringing it back, yet. I agree that licensing should bring more stability but it may be damaging the game in other ways.

I was sat with my brothers last night and we were talking about this and they agreed with me that we haven't been excited about a Widnes game since the Northern Rail last year. 2 out of 3 of us aren't going the final this year, it just isn't a necessity especially when money is tight. Basically there's nothing riding on it and that's how it feels about 99% of games.

Even were we to get promoted in 2012 we would still be playing most of our games with nothing riding on them. In the past much of the excitement has come from the real necessity to get a win otherwise we may be dragged into a relegation battle. This isn't going to be the case and it is really taking away from the excitement of the sport for me and others that I know.

The only way to combat this is for their to be genuine competition to win Super League. I fear for the teams at the bottom end of the league if the same clubs carry on winning every year. The sport itself isn't enough, this has been proved time and time again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My point is more about unseen factors associated with this. P & R was far from perfect and I'm still not advocating bringing it back, yet. I agree that licensing should bring more stability but it may be damaging the game in other ways.

I was sat with my brothers last night and we were talking about this and they agreed with me that we haven't been excited about a Widnes game since the Northern Rail last year. 2 out of 3 of us aren't going the final this year, it just isn't a necessity especially when money is tight. Basically there's nothing riding on it and that's how it feels about 99% of games.

Even were we to get promoted in 2012 we would still be playing most of our games with nothing riding on them. In the past much of the excitement has come from the real necessity to get a win otherwise we may be dragged into a relegation battle. This isn't going to be the case and it is really taking away from the excitement of the sport for me and others that I know.

The only way to combat this is for their to be genuine competition to win Super League. I fear for the teams at the bottom end of the league if the same clubs carry on winning every year. The sport itself isn't enough, this has been proved time and time again.

interesting stuff as ever

for the vast majority of clubs there has hardly ever been anything riding on games, throughout the season for large part of their history, because they have been the perpetual whipping boys of the handful of clubs that have long periods of success. You are a widnes fan and you have been lucky.

' a 'relegation battle' can ammount to one or a handful of games at the most-attendances aren't genrrally boosted by this and the results can be catastrophic for a club.

Of course as you say licensing might be damaging to the game in other ways.

Nothing is ideal, and the challenges that the sport ha had to face throughout its history make the choices and decisions difficult and often divisive. For a progressive sport we also seem to have a vociferous reactionary sub culture.

I blkame the RFL.

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pride & Heritage - I'd have quoted you, but we may run out of space soon! Do fans, in numbers that would make a difference really stop watching the Bulls and drift to the Rhinos? My experience is that in the main once your clubs lost you then the sport on the whole has to.

I'm only going from first hand experience at Batley, I obviously cannot speak for fans at the Bulls etc. but most of the fans we lost after we were denied promotion to SL have been watching the likes of Bradford, Wakefield and Leeds ever since, it would be logical to assume that the new fans gained at a club doing well would not be entirely new/first time viewers to the game either.

I'd say Wigan don't take 5000 fans to Crusaders because we, as many other clubs in our sport tend not to travel in such numbers for regular season games, so I don't see this as lost revenue, so not sure those sums really add up.

Sorry about given example, I have to agree I over simplified it and my figures are based upon all home fans travelling away too. Obviously only a percentage of home fans will travel away too, The point I was making should have read as:-

A bigger percentage of fans would be more likely to travel to away matches if the game was likely to produce a close unpredictable result. The one sided games between the top and bottom clubs are where the revenue is needed most by the game to help reduce the chasm between top and bottom. For instance you will take perhaps 6000 fans to a game against Leeds, where as you may only take 3000 to a game at Salford. It would be better for the game if you took 6000 to Salford who really need the revenue to help in being competitive. The only way of doing that is to make all games close and as attractive to fans as possible.

Wigan Athletics rise to the premiership was a combination of more money at the beginning in League 2, then with each promotion luck, shrewdness and money I'd say play an equal part, Blackpool this year being a case in point. It did teach me though that the journey was the best bit of the trip! And I am fully aware when our time comes to an end and we go down it will result in financial melt down.

That is why the gulf between the divisions needs to be narrowed, it would ensure the survival of clubs that drop out of the top flight as well as the smaller clubs hoping to come up in the future. Surely the financial meltdown by teams dropping down cannot be seen as a good thing.

I see were you going trying to spread the talent about and have a league were anyone can beat anyone, but I just don't see how that can work in a sporting environment, teams just don't get built/evolve like that.

I've said before on here, so forgive me for repeating myself, but I'd scrap the cap, its not transparent there always seems to be an air of suspicion around it, we have many threads on here implying as such. I'd replace it with a clause in the license agreement that would see clubs have to post a profit each year, no matter how small, but what ever they filed with companies house would have to show it, it would be open to all to see. I'd have a limit set on how much could come from one person/company to level out the "sugar daddy" effect.

That would cover off the "saving clubs from themselves" aspect. I wouldn't be adverse to seeing some sort of draft system either on youth or imports, it maybe harder to implement with youth given EU laws etc, along with welfare and consideration for a kid growing up and the dream of playing for "your club" etc. But a draft of some sort of overseas players is the only way to spread the talent, I see little evidence the salary cap has done it and many on here in the past have argued this was never the intention of the salary cap.

I 100% agree about the SC transparency, and in it's current state I also agree that it isn't working, and it should be made completely transparent IMO too. Surely it would make the RFL's job easier in policing the SC if it was transparent? Barrow amongst others have had a lot of specualtion regarding their spending on players this year and have they/not broken the cap, it is also important the rules of the SC have to be tightened up and existing hoop holes need to be tightened up or removed. I'm also sure you right in saying the SC was not designed to spread talent across the game, but it does give the game the easiest and fairest way of governing the spread of talent amongst all of the teams. However I do think you have some excellent ideas, particularly the "sugar daddy" limit and profit publishing. The problem is though it wouldn't help the clubs at the bottom in getting nearer to the teams at the top.

On overseas players, perhaps reducing the quota to just 1 overseas player per team could help in spreading the talent. However a draft system as you mention seems like an excellent idea, but difficult under current E.U legislation to be allowed. A quota reduction however would also help to develop home grown young talent and overcome the reliance of key players in most SL clubs (centres and half backs for example).

In the past, prior to the Bosman ruling, small clubs relied to a degree on fostering and nurturing young talent which ensured there long term survival. The transfer fees involved when those lads made the step up to the big time, kept small clubs afloat, it allowed them to "buy in" future talent to replace the lads they had lost. Since that revenue flow has now gone, smaller teams can no longer replace the lost talent, and as most young lads are signed by the big clubs on good contracts in some cases from an early age these days. The loss of that revenue stream has also taken the glimmer of hope and main route for the small clubs to ever get to the top. That lost income of the past also helped to lower and manage the gulf between the top and bottom clubs. Due to this change in all sports, the game has to find a new way to overcome this issue and to ensure the survival of the smaller clubs and ultimately the survival of the game in general. Controlling the spending of all clubs by way of the SC on players seems to be the fairest and most logical solution to overcome this issue, and to spread the talent around and keeping the game competitive. It should also stop the laughing stock instances that have graced our game like Runcorn and Doncaster before them.

There are problems with it though. This system could be used to prop up totally unsustainable clubs, e.g. Harlequins, Blackpool etc., but that is something for the governing body to decide on an individual basis; they would have to rule on what is in the best interests of the game's long term future. However, with the control and influence placed upon the RFL by the big clubs intent on feathering there own nests at the current time, I would doubt that a balanced or unbiased decision could be made on what is truely right for the game by the RFL.

Edited by Pride & Heritage
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For the vast majority of clubs there has hardly ever been anything riding on games, throughout the season for large part of their history, because they have been the perpetual whipping boys of the handful of clubs that have long periods of success.

A relegation battle' can ammount to one or a handful of games at the most-attendances aren't genrrally boosted by this and the results can be catastrophic for a club.

Having witnessed "one division" of pre 1973 days and spent 45 years watching the game many many games are fairly meaningless. P & R was a help I believe, but those were the days when you could go up, and come down and no damage done go up again. We were yo-yo-s at Hunslet!!!

Today as we know the game has made decisions that have altered things and there's no real prospect of P & R working unless the SKY money was split say 20 ways. Even if it did work it could do the game financial damage. That's another debate.

I think we all have periods where we get fed up of the game, find other thing stimulating and change our habits. Maybe a lack of interest in games is down to many different things and easy to pin on a lack P & R at the moment.

But the bigger factor than P & R for me is a Superleague that after 14 years has not built up what it intended to build up, an Australian style comp where you can be bottom one year and top another. If SKY won't dilute the money to clubs, which I doubt, then it's ever onwards towards a truly competetive competition, at the snails pace we are going.

Fans at smaller clubs have already or will over time decide wether they want to watch RL in the NL's without any prospect of getting into SL. Uncle Mo would probably have no sympathy and tell them "there's an SL club near you mate" and I know that's not good enough for some individuals.

But as long as SL is good enough for the vast bulk of paying fans on TV and at grounds, how can individuals ever win the day on a "principle" of all inclusiveness in the face of economic reality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

interesting stuff as ever

for the vast majority of clubs there has hardly ever been anything riding on games, throughout the season for large part of their history, because they have been the perpetual whipping boys of the handful of clubs that have long periods of success. You are a widnes fan and you have been lucky.

' a 'relegation battle' can ammount to one or a handful of games at the most-attendances aren't genrrally boosted by this and the results can be catastrophic for a club.

Of course as you say licensing might be damaging to the game in other ways.

Nothing is ideal, and the challenges that the sport ha had to face throughout its history make the choices and decisions difficult and often divisive. For a progressive sport we also seem to have a vociferous reactionary sub culture.

I think this was my point. As attendances haven't really been affected (in Super League at least) it's been easy to say that franchising and licensing hasn't had an effect and this is what I had thought for the last couple of seasons.

But I would disagree on your second point. As a Widnes fan who has experienced relegation, promotion, relegation and now licensing I can say that I have seen a change. For the years that we were out of Super League the first time, it was all about getting promoted to be back with the big boys. A few times we were genuine challengers and games were exciting. When we were in Super League we were never so safe that relegation wasn't an issue and I remember even a few games into the season once we had a must win game against Castleford for relegation reasons. As a fan you're looking at the fixture list wondering where you could pick up wins to stay up and then those games become more important. Then of course there was the absolute desolation of being relegated and subsequent failure to get promoted.

I'm not making any protest to the way RL is ran or boycotting top level RL but the fact is that neither I or my 2 brothers are nearly as interested as we used to be. There is a certain amount of waiting for Super League but at the same time the games genuinely lack excitement because they lack meaning. I'm not even going to Blackpool for the Northern Rail and I've only been a handful of games this year. When I do go I go as much out of loyalty as a desire to watch a game. The perfect example was Thursday, one of my brothers hadn't even realised we were on TV and the two of us that had were hardly buzzing with excitement about it.

Basically you have 3 people who were die-hard Widnes fans and would talk nothing else when together. Now you have one who is more interested in his Football and another who is more interested in his U13's RL side. Then there is me, I help out with the U13's and have got more enjoyment out of them than following Widnes in the last 12 months. Just a few years ago I could never have envisioned not following Widnes like a die-hard.

Like I said this is no anti-RL reaction, just a realisation of the effect that taking away true P&R has had on how my family follow their local RL club. Of course the Championship is one thing and is a problem area for RL but I honestly don't think following a low level Super League club would massively change this apathy I have at the moment. After the early season delusions of grandeur, the interest would drop off after it became apparent that we weren't going to challenge and effectively had little resting on the games but pride. Crowds may stay relatively high, largely because of season tickets shifted and local derbies but aside from that real interest may not be there.

For me licensing will only work in Super League if we truly get a system like the NRL where a team can go from bottom to top in a short space of time. The battle for the playoffs could replace this anticipation of a relegation battle but only if it is genuine. Last years poor showing by Wakefield and Huddersfield after what were good years on the pitch damaged the playoff system I thought. It suggested that when it matters the big teams still win and comfortably so despite everything else.

This cannot happen overnight but I think the consequences of it not working could be really bad for RL. If Widnes aren't in SL at the next round of licensing I think that will be it, because I feel like I am witnessing the slow death of a club similar to what fans of many once proud clubs have seen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Repeat! The game belongs to everyone, not just the chosen few in the eyes of Lewis and Wood.

I'm a RL fan with opinions just like everyone else on here. And I pride myself in being able to respect others who may have differing opinions, without having to resort to abrasive arrogance and bad manners.

The abrasive attitude and bad manners I agree about Terry.

I agree the game now belongs to everyone. Young and old and ladies can play, you can play anywhere in the country, you can watch at all levels.

I'm not sure the slogan applies to the professional game. That belongs to the businesses that make it up, and the moneymen who patronise it, and at the end of the day they vote to decide how things are organised.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having witnessed "one division" of pre 1973 days and spent 45 years watching the game many many games are fairly meaningless. P & R was a help I believe, but those were the days when you could go up, and come down and no damage done go up again. We were yo-yo-s at Hunslet!!!

Today as we know the game has made decisions that have altered things and there's no real prospect of P & R working unless the SKY money was split say 20 ways. Even if it did work it could do the game financial damage. That's another debate.

I think we all have periods where we get fed up of the game, find other thing stimulating and change our habits. Maybe a lack of interest in games is down to many different things and easy to pin on a lack P & R at the moment.

But the bigger factor than P & R for me is a Superleague that after 14 years has not built up what it intended to build up, an Australian style comp where you can be bottom one year and top another. If SKY won't dilute the money to clubs, which I doubt, then it's ever onwards towards a truly competetive competition, at the snails pace we are going.

Fans at smaller clubs have already or will over time decide wether they want to watch RL in the NL's without any prospect of getting into SL. Uncle Mo would probably have no sympathy and tell them "there's an SL club near you mate" and I know that's not good enough for some individuals.

But as long as SL is good enough for the vast bulk of paying fans on TV and at grounds, how can individuals ever win the day on a "principle" of all inclusiveness in the face of economic reality.

The problem of this is that you are massively reducing your spread. The phrase, 'putting your eggs in one basket' comes to mind.

What happens if a club like Bradford fails and needs replacing? Who is there to replace them with?

I'd say there are at least 10,000 fans who follow RL in Widnes. I'd be surprised if 1,000 of these started following the Wire, Wigan or Saints if we packed up tomorrow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awwww P & H I wanted Tro to answer that ;)

I've been away in Whitby, and am just catching up. One point I would repeat though is that everyone writes about crowds on here as though they are a static commodity. "The crowd watching team a. can be cajoled in to watching team b." Crowds are not static commodities they are dynamic, their composition changes. I would guess that had Fev beaten Wakefield at Huddersfield in 1998, and gained access to SL many of those who now go to Belle Vue would be coming to PO Road. They wouldn't be deserting Wakey it's just that at the time they were not RL supporters, some of them perhaps weren't even born. The same applies to 'Fax and the Giants and Bulls. Probably to Widnes, Saints and Warrington too. It is the removal of the possibility of one's team being able to compete with the big boys IMO that has depressed the crowds in the Chamionship, and possibly deterred potential supporters from watching Championship rugby, and the absence of anything to play for in the second half of the season has possibly depressed crowds in the lower end of SL. Plus of course taken away the spice, the bite of fear or anticipation.

Edited by Trojan

“Few thought him even a starter.There were many who thought themselves smarter. But he ended PM, CH and OM. An Earl and a Knight of the Garter.”

Clement Attlee.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't read everything on this, so may have missed the point, but my stance on P and R is that it ought to be the aim of the game to get to a position in which we are strong enough to reinstate it, as I believe that we have lost a lot in doing away with it. I can see the logic of having 2 rounds of franchising if the threat of exclusion actually leads to teams getting their act together off the pitch and getting some young players developed and promoted.

I hate the idea of clubs that I have seen winning cups and championships in my brief 30 year period watching the game being excluded from the top tier because at a snap shot moment they were down on their uppers.

I hate the idea of something as arbitrary as the ground in which a team plays determining whether a team can be promoted. Quins play at a union ground (a beautiful one at that) and so score more highly than Cas, simply because no one has made a fortune in over priced sports shoes in that part of the world? At what point did that become sport?

I see franchising as a necessary evil because without it clubs would continue to put bringing in as many kolpaks as they can over improving facilities and developing players. But if it is succeeds it must be shelved.

Finally, when people talk about a gulf between SL and the lower divisions it seems to me that it is entirely within the gift of the game to sort that out. Give NL1 clubs half what SL clubs get and we could enter a golden age in which great traditional and expansion clubs all have a rosy future.

I feel very strongly about this.

Finally well done to any Widnes fan who can still watch the game without feeling sickened by their treatment by it after having brought so much glory to this game in its darkest hours.

Edited by Exiled Wiganer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm only going from first hand experience at Batley, I obviously cannot speak for fans at the Bulls etc. but most of the fans we lost after we were denied promotion to SL have been watching the likes of Bradford, Wakefield and Leeds ever since, it would be logical to assume that the new fans gained at a club doing well would not be entirely new/first time viewers to the game either.

Fair enough, personally I've not encountered to many folk who swap allegiances, people who tend to stop watching there original club of choice tend to be lost to the sport at a club level.

But to take Batley as an example, what, as a fan do you feel the potential of the club is if there was a full P&R system, in conjunction with your 1 million salary cap proposal? For mine the proximity to Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield and Huddersfield would make it nigh on impossible to drop another professional club in there that could pull the crowds required to survive.

A bigger percentage of fans would be more likely to travel to away matches if the game was likely to produce a close unpredictable result. The one sided games between the top and bottom clubs are where the revenue is needed most by the game to help reduce the chasm between top and bottom. For instance you will take perhaps 6000 fans to a game against Leeds, where as you may only take 3000 to a game at Salford. It would be better for the game if you took 6000 to Salford who really need the revenue to help in being competitive. The only way of doing that is to make all games close and as attractive to fans as possible.

I remain unconvinced, we as RL fans really don't travel that well and its not helped by having games on Friday night which will rule out longer trips for most and anyone who doesn't have the stomach for crossing the M62 in the traffic.

That is why the gulf between the divisions needs to be narrowed, it would ensure the survival of clubs that drop out of the top flight as well as the smaller clubs hoping to come up in the future. Surely the financial meltdown by teams dropping down cannot be seen as a good thing.

Agreed but that could be said about a lot of sports in the UK, its not the Sky way, we can kid ourselves we control our own destiny, but we don't. Even if we did I don't see how you close the gap by weakening the top flight without causing irreparable damage to the sport, on closing of the gap has to come by raising standards in the Championship.

but it does give the game the easiest and fairest way of governing the spread of talent amongst all of the teams.

Not sure I see that, as soon as a decent kid appears at say a Salford "bigger" clubs are sniffing around pretty quickly and he's off and I can't recall seeing anyone in there prime thats left a Leeds, Wigan, Saints or Warrington and gone to say a Wakefield, Castleford or Salford thats made me sit up and think "wow, that wouldn't have happened pre-cap".

On overseas players, perhaps reducing the quota to just 1 overseas player per team could help in spreading the talent. However a draft system as you mention seems like an excellent idea, but difficult under current E.U legislation to be allowed. A quota reduction however would also help to develop home grown young talent and overcome the reliance of key players in most SL clubs (centres and half backs for example).

I'd love to see a reduction in the overseas quota, as I want to see us have as a big a pool as possible to choose from at an international level. Not sure it would spread the talent about, I wonder if clubs less likely to win anything would have to pay a premium to sign someone who say previously would have gone to Leeds.

There are problems with it though. This system could be used to prop up totally unsustainable clubs, e.g. Harlequins, Blackpool etc., but that is something for the governing body to decide on an individual basis; they would have to rule on what is in the best interests of the game's long term future. However, with the control and influence placed upon the RFL by the big clubs intent on feathering there own nests at the current time, I would doubt that a balanced or unbiased decision could be made on what is truely right for the game by the RFL.

Do the RFL have any say over a professional club in London or is it a condition imposed by Sky?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem of this is that you are massively reducing your spread. The phrase, 'putting your eggs in one basket' comes to mind.

What happens if a club like Bradford fails and needs replacing? Who is there to replace them with?

I'd say there are at least 10,000 fans who follow RL in Widnes. I'd be surprised if 1,000 of these started following the Wire, Wigan or Saints if we packed up tomorrow.

Well we've managed to get to 14 clubs in SL and I hold out hopes of stadia for Wakey and Cas. With Widnes and Toulouse that could be 16 clubs capable of getting to or near full cap.

Better than the GP. If we lose clubs from that and nobody is big enough to step up then there's options to drop the numbers in the SL.

I'm not advocating excluding any club, the question is how will an NL club compete with such a big gap, OR how would closing the gap by reducing the cap and spreading the money say across 20 clubs (add Leigh, Fax, Fev and sheffield to SL) impact on the game. Those are questions regarding the choice between exclusion and inclusion.

"Your not including us" is the cry, if radical changes were made to address that the cry would be "you are holding us back" from the top end of SL.......

As for fans capabilities of "allegiance transfer" it's probably low with died in the wool fans and high with future fans yet to choose where to watch the RL.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't read everything on this, so may have missed the point, but my stance on P and R is that it ought to be the aim of the game to get to a position in which we are strong enough to reinstate it, as I believe that we have lost a lot in doing away with it. I can see the logic of having 2 rounds of franchising if the threat of exclusion actually leads to teams getting their act together off the pitch and getting some young players developed and promoted.

I hate the idea of clubs that I have seen winning cups and championships in my brief 30 year period watching the game being excluded from the top tier because at a snap shot moment they were down on their uppers.

I hate the idea of something as arbitrary as the ground in which a team plays determining whether a team can be promoted. Quins play at a union ground (a beautiful one at that) and so score more highly than Cas, simply because no one has made a fortune in over priced sports shoes in that part of the world? At what point did that become sport?

I see franchising as a necessary evil because without it clubs would continue to put bringing in as many kolpaks as they can over improving facilities and developing players. But if it is succeeds it must be shelved.

Finally, when people talk about a gulf between SL and the lower divisions it seems to me that it is entirely within the gift of the game to sort that out. Give NL1 clubs half what SL clubs get and we could enter a golden age in which great traditional and expansion clubs all have a rosy future.

I feel very strongly about this.

Finally well done to any Widnes fan who can still watch the game without feeling sickened by their treatment by it after having brought so much glory to this game in its darkest hours.

.

Edited by Terry Mullaney

Wedding Films For The Discerning by Picture House

Free Showreel DVD On Request

http://www.picturehouseweddingfilms.co.uk/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't read everything on this, so may have missed the point, but my stance on P and R is that it ought to be the aim of the game to get to a position in which we are strong enough to reinstate it, as I believe that we have lost a lot in doing away with it.

Finally, when people talk about a gulf between SL and the lower divisions it seems to me that it is entirely within the gift of the game to sort that out. Give NL1 clubs half what SL clubs get and we could enter a golden age in which great traditional and expansion clubs all have a rosy future.

Being strong enough to re-instate P & R needs the elite to be "strong" and clubs outside it to also be "strong".

The current definition of "strong" may be decent attandances in a decent ground to generate revenue, and a decent side being kept rejuvinated by a player development policy to generate competetiveness.

I can only really see half a dozen strong clubs so far.

If you drop the revenue required by dropping the cap say to

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But to take Batley as an example, what, as a fan do you feel the potential of the club is if there was a full P&R system, in conjunction with your 1 million salary cap proposal? For mine the proximity to Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield and Huddersfield would make it nigh on impossible to drop another professional club in there that could pull the crowds required to survive.

It is an excellent point and I do agree that it would be almost impossible to drop a Batley, Hunslet or Dewsbury for example in to the SL at the moment for the examples you rightly point out. It could also be said for the likes of Leigh and Widnes to a degree too, with Wigan, Saints and Warrington who are all in close proximity to them too. At the inception of SL I thought the best thing for the game would be for the traditional clubs to stay as they were playing in the winter. Then have the SL franchises playing in the summer. Emotion should have been totally taken out of the equation and the best thing logically for game would've been to franchise SL teams to large areas across the country and remove all of the historical clubs of the past and put a franchise in all of the big cities, like Leeds, Manchester, Sheffield, Hull, Liverpool, Birmingham, Newcastle, Leicester, Nottingham, Cumbria and London for example would be best candidates IMO, making the game truely national and not just seen around the M62. However, as has been proven in London and Sheffield who both in theory should attract huge gates every week, neither have managed it though, and both have historically struggled to attract fans and in reality you'd have to say catchment area does not/has not guaranteed large attendances, so why would it work in say Birmingham or Newcastle? However, I would love to know what promotion the RFL has done in the likes of Sheffield and London to attract fans and help to grow the game, at a guess I'd say not much, particularly in Sheffield.

Not sure I see that, as soon as a decent kid appears at say a Salford "bigger" clubs are sniffing around pretty quickly and he's off and I can't recall seeing anyone in there prime thats left a Leeds, Wigan, Saints or Warrington and gone to say a Wakefield, Castleford or Salford thats made me sit up and think "wow, that wouldn't have happened pre-cap".

100% agree mate, but that is why I think the salary cap is too high at the moment and needs to be set to a level that can be maxed by all of the competing teams. If the SC was able to be maxed out and afforded by all of the clubs in the SL, then we would see the spread of talent I am advocating. The likes of Richie Myler would still be at Salford for example as they would have as much cash to spend on the squad as Warington who bought him. Or if Warrington did buy him then someone like Monaghan would 've had to have been released to make room under the cap. We would then see a spread of all of the top stars playing the game and top players would be seen at the likes of Salford and Wakey for example, making them a better proposition to fans and help them to be more competitive on the field. At a guess I'd say maybe 4 clubs at the current time are in a position to spend the allowed

Edited by Pride & Heritage
Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, as has been proven in London and Sheffield who both in theory should attract huge gates every week, neither have managed it though, and both have historically struggled to attract fans and in reality you'd have to say catchment area does not/has not guaranteed large attendances, so why would it work in say Birmingham or Newcastle? However, I would love to know what promotion the RFL has done in the likes of Sheffield and London to attract fans and help to grow the game, at a guess I'd say not much, particularly in Sheffield.

I think the salary cap is too high at the moment and needs to be set to a level that can be maxed by all of the competing teams. If the SC was able to be maxed out and afforded by all of the clubs in the SL, then we would see the spread of talent I am advocating.

You always advocate something then try to logically analyse how it will work which is good stuff.

The idea RL is such a great game that if presented to a population at top level they will automatically flood to it has as you say been disproven. many places already have their soccer to watch primarily and secondly they have their beloved Union which is clearly preferred to league in non league areas.

It's too easy to offer this idea that all it takes for a big crowd is marketing. That costs money and the return is limited, even if you gave away unlimited free tickets there would be still the barrier of who wants to watch RL - their time is money and they won't waste that??

We watch RL in the northern towns bacuse its ingrained in the culture. That to me is the answer. If we can build good crowds over several generations by having the game extensively played in an area people will to a point gravitate to it. In short there's no short term fix. If we want crowds to grow in big population areas we have to grow an RL cluture there. Looking at generations here.

As for lowering the salry cap to bring in more clubs to max cap that is great in theory using a calculator and numbers to get to a proposal. Any such proposal means dragging the big six clubs who manage maximum cap right down. Even if they would wear it would it really be as simple as that??

All the fans are in the big clubs - Hull, Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Wire, Fartown can draw 70,000 plus fans because they are who they are. Will dragging them down be such a good idea. I am not sure.......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You always advocate something then try to logically analyse how it will work which is good stuff.

The idea RL is such a great game that if presented to a population at top level they will automatically flood to it has as you say been disproven. many places already have their soccer to watch primarily and secondly they have their beloved Union which is clearly preferred to league in non league areas.

We watch RL in the northern towns bacuse its ingrained in the culture. That to me is the answer. If we can build good crowds over several generations by having the game extensively played in an area people will to a point gravitate to it. In short there's no short term fix. If we want crowds to grow in big population areas we have to grow an RL cluture there. Looking at generations here.

Maybe the solution is to introduce a national junior competition though schools to ensure that all or certainly most kids grow up playing or at least have a good exposure to the game, perhaps we need to add imputous to the existing schemes. I'm sure that is why Union is so strong, even in the area I grew up Union was the only code of rugby we played at school.

As for lowering the salry cap to bring in more clubs to max cap that is great in theory using a calculator and numbers to get to a proposal. Any such proposal means dragging the big six clubs who manage maximum cap right down. Even if they would wear it would it really be as simple as that??

All the fans are in the big clubs - Hull, Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Wire, Fartown can draw 70,000 plus fans because they are who they are. Will dragging them down be such a good idea. I am not sure.......

I think it might bring the gates at the big clubs down a little in the short term, but it should be balanced out by the increase in travelling away support as we would be guaranteeing more close games, which should result in cutting some of the apathy where fans of the big clubs do not see the point in paying to watch their team win easily in games against the bottom clubs.

Fartown is a good case in point, I watched them against Batley for years in the lower divisions with gates no better than Batley's at the time. They are a classic example of how a dead and buried team with no ground and very little support can become a major force in the game. Continued success and competitiveness on the field over the last few years has seen their gates and standing in the game increase to now make them a major club again. For the game to significantly grow over the next few years, and really take off, and to help it get closer to the elusive national sport status it wants to be. I would like to see the same growth achieved at Fartown at clubs like Salford, Wakefield and all of the other clubs that are struggling at the moment. The only way clubs can do this is through money at the moment. A sugar daddy is one avenue to success for them, but it can also lead to disaster in many cases, like at Oldham, Doncaster and more recently at Blackpool. By lowering the cap however, it would reduce the need for a sugar daddy at most clubs to make them competitive, it would ensure the future of the clubs and the game by maintaining a level of spending on players that would be sustainable, and in the future they would hopefully become self funding and profitable entities.

Getting the big clubs to agree is a different matter though. It could be achieved by a totally independent RFL who had the best interests of the whole game as its objective, but at this point in time I am not convinced that it is capable of being independent from the influence of the big teams and acting for the games best interests.

Edited by Pride & Heritage
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having been to watch Dewsbury play Toulouse on Saturday, I think that's the end of my association with Championship football, while franchising promotes the following negatives.

- no atmosphere, 864 fans shouting for 1 side. Why are Toulouse in this league?

- nothing to play for, it was like ground hog day. Only 1 team has any future outside the championship and there wasn't one fan in the ground to celebrate that.

- A disproportionate number of Aussies playing for Toulouse. The price of a future outside the championship (it seems to me).

- A disproportionate access to resources. Toulouse have a whole feeder system with St Gaudens FFS!

- It was like ground hog day. Reminded me of the time Huddersfield were in the NFP. Nailed on for Super League everyone else can go hang.

- It was like ground hog day, poor facilities, same as 1994 when the ground was built. Same old faces, same deluded aspirations, no new blood.

2 quotes.

What have the Romans ever done for us?. errrrr - nothing

The definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result. I am therefore glad to announce I am no longer insane.

So if franchising has done anything, it's made my decision not to renew my season ticket a forgone conclusion. I'm sure I am not the first or the last.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having been to watch Dewsbury play Toulouse on Saturday, I think that's the end of my association with Championship football, while franchising promotes the following negatives.

- no atmosphere, 864 fans shouting for 1 side. Why are Toulouse in this league?

- nothing to play for, it was like ground hog day. Only 1 team has any future outside the championship and there wasn't one fan in the ground to celebrate that.

- A disproportionate number of Aussies playing for Toulouse. The price of a future outside the championship (it seems to me).

- A disproportionate access to resources. Toulouse have a whole feeder system with St Gaudens FFS!

- It was like ground hog day. Reminded me of the time Huddersfield were in the NFP. Nailed on for Super League everyone else can go hang.

- It was like ground hog day, poor facilities, same as 1994 when the ground was built. Same old faces, same deluded aspirations, no new blood.

2 quotes.

What have the Romans ever done for us?. errrrr - nothing

The definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result. I am therefore glad to announce I am no longer insane.

So if franchising has done anything, it's made my decision not to renew my season ticket a forgone conclusion. I'm sure I am not the first or the last.

Sadly Acroman, if we all take that attitude we are playing in to the RFL's hands in killing the game off below SL, as all of the clubs outside of SL will go to the wall. Maybe they will anyway, but I fear it will be the begining of the end for the whole game if it happens.

I too disagree with the Toulouse inclusion, I simply cannot see what they are doing for the game over here. The same goes for Catalan for that matter, they bring nothing to the sport, no fans, too many 2nd or 3rd rate Aussies, and they are taking money out of the game on travelling and hotel expenses every week either by them coming here, or by teams from this country playing them in France. It is money that could be better spent on trying to strengthen the game in this country IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...