SoOGB

[Dave T]

^But if you're gonna do it, you might as well find a reason to split them on either side, to help sell it, and if it is a great contest, with one team or the other having to show their metal to win, people will find affections naturally, for one or the other, and people are loyal next time around, if they are allowed to be (ie. given some consistency to enjoy/support)

So even if it's all England, lets split them somehow, even if it's East and West, City and town, whatever you want, but to do nothing will make this game as worthwhile commercially as a trial behind closed doors.

But everything suggested just sounds fake.

England v Other Nations is probably the best, but then we get 17 English players playing, which is slightly different to my proposal.

Yorks v Lans has failed time and again.

England v France - people don't turn up and complain about it when they do.

The draw is that it is the England team playing.

[Dave T]

You have matter of factly included Widdop, Burgess and Ellis in your selections Dave. I doubt very much that their respective NRL teams would allow them to play in such a match.

If this was as a replacement for the France game, perhaps as a trade off that they wouldn't be selected for that, then it is something that could be worked through.

[Dave T]

i disagree i think it could and would be less than 7k if there was nothing whatsoever riding on it an it was no more than a trial match.. even if th other option is a glorified trial match there is still some glory.. and it could take years for the potnt grow (as origin did) but it is somethign to stick to once decided upon..

Tbf, there is nothng riding on the England v France game apart from will England get 40,50 or 60. BTW there is no bigger fan of the international game than me, so I am not suggesting we sack that off, just that we look at all options.

You know with the England v England A game you are getting the best 34 players available to England on one pitch. If it is split by East v West or Yorks v Lancs, that isn't the case. We could have 4 or 5 options at halves who play for Lancs and none for Yorks.

Personally I'd like to see us stop worrying about emulating Origin, and get some proper Test matches against some of the other teams, PNG, Tonga, Samoa etc.

[HappyDave]

Imagine a game between:

Widdop 1 Wellens

Briscoe 2 Riley

Bridge 3 Gleeson

Shenton 4 Atkins

Hall 5 Fox

Tomkins 6 McGuire

Eastmond 7 Myler

Graham 8 Crabtree

Roby 9 Lunt

Peacock 10 Lynch

Burgess 11 Westwood

Ellis 12 J Tomkins

O'Loughlin 13 Sinfield

Pryce 14 Moore

Morley 15 Carvell

Scruton 16 Fielden

Wilkin 17 Burrow

Surely Sinfield is currently is the first choice Hooker? He definitely should definitely be in the England squad due to his play-maker and kicking abilities (I'd actually like to see him as Captain). I'd go with Morely rather than Peacock. Peacock just doesn't seem to do a lot at International level these days whereas Morley can still drive in the Big Hits.

The only problem is unfortunately England 'A' may not end up with any supporters and they may get beaten by 30-40+ points.

Edited July 8, 2010 by HappyDave

[Dave T]

Surely Sinfield is currently is the first choice Hooker? He definitely should definitely be in the England squad due to his play-maker and kicking abilities (I'd actually like to see him as Captain). I'd go with Morely rather than Peacock. Peacock just doesn't seem to do a lot at International level these days whereas Morley can still drive in the Big Hits.

The only problem is unfortunately England 'A' may not end up with any supporters and they may get beaten by 30-40+ points.

Yep, was just a quick team from the top of my head. TBH I see no reason why there would be such an inbalance. We only beat France by 30odd or whatever it was in the 4N, and that England A team I have named would beat France well.

[HappyDave]

Fair enough. But would anyone support an England 'A'/'potentials' Vs the currently England RL squad? Or would everyone be neutral? Then who would they cheer for? Both teams? If you're jeering the England squad wouldn't that be detrimental to the National game?

[Dave T]

Fair enough. But would anyone support an England 'A'/'potentials' Vs the currently England RL squad? Or would everyone be neutral? Then who would they cheer for? Both teams? If you're jeering the England squad wouldn't that be detrimental to the National game?

Yep, would see them supporting both, in reality I would expect the fans to cheer for the team with their players in!

As I said, I don't see this as a kind of Origin for the fans, they have had chance to support Roses games, or even full blown tests and haven't really got behind them so this is more about exposing more English players to the higher level of intensity that people cry out for.

[bendyas]

Yep, would see them supporting both, in reality I would expect the fans to cheer for the team with their players in!

As I said, I don't see this as a kind of Origin for the fans, they have had chance to support Roses games, or even full blown tests and haven't really got behind them so this is more about exposing more English players to the higher level of intensity that people cry out for.

What were the attendances for the last 20 origin games?

[Gruff]

Personally I think a Yorkshire vs Lancashire would be a fantastic idea, and be based on who players played their first SL game for, which is I believe quite similar to the Aussies (i.e. not the area you were born in)

This will mean everyone apart from those who have only played for Quins/Crusaders will have the chance to participate.

Whilst I am a massive "Expasionista" we cannot forget where the game comes from and its heritage, and we should play on this a bit.

The last "War of the roses" occured for 3 years, with sod all organisation, and at a time when the Rugby League was on its ass, trying to recover from the disasterous WC, mainly under a previous regime (Lewis only got involved with RL after the 2002 series).

We not only need a series of games of higher intensity than normal SL games, but we need our English players getting used to the idea of playing with players from other sides in SL and having to gel instantly if they want results. A SoO idea gives not just 17 players the chance to do this, but a pool of 34, from which a national squad can be devised.

And as for people outside of Yorks/Lancs not caring, I don't see why this would be the case? How many sports fans watch games/teams that aren't "their" team? Were the viewing figures for all non England games in the WC zero? When France/Italy/Ireland play on the BBC/Sky in the six nations are their viewing figures zero? No, because people will watch sport if its on, and will watch a game if they know it is going to be a good one.

If something like this does happen it needs marketing well and being stuck with, not canceled after 3 years. The Aussie SoO crowds weren't that good for the first 10 years or so, on average about half what they have now, even going down to 16k, but they stuck with it and look at them now.

Finally, a "prestigious events" calendar like this would suit me down to the gorund

Feb - Magic weekend to kick the season off in either London/Dublin/Cardiff/Edinburgh

May - 3 series SoO played mid week - same set up as the aussies. One in Lancs (CoM/JJB), one in Yorks (ER/Galph), finale in London (Stoop/AN other)

August - CC Final - London

October - GF, with Wales vs France as curtain raiser (if neither of them are in GF)

Oct/Nov - International window

[Dave T]

What were the attendances for the last 20 origin games?

Buggered if I know. I have seen 7-8k in the JJB and Odsal though after an initially promising 10k at Headingley.

I have in my head that the crowds were very low, although many were played in midweek, so not sure they have been given major prominence.

Edit: found these on wikipedia:

1980 Lancashire 17-9 1,593 Widnes

1981 Yorkshire 21-15 1,222 Castleford

1982 Yorkshire 22-21 1,738 Leigh

1985 Lancashire 26-10 6,743 Wigan

1986 Yorkshire 26-14 5,983 Leeds

1987 Yorkshire 16-10 9,748 Wigan

1988 Yorkshire 24-14 8,244 Leeds

1989 Yorkshire 56-12 10,182 Wigan

2001 Lancashire 36-24 10,253 Leeds

2002 Lancashire 22-18 10,000 Wigan

2002 Lancashire 36-28 9,283 Leeds

2003 Yorkshire 56-6 8,258 Bradford

The 2002 Wigan one was not that high, and was less than 8k IIRC.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Dave T

[Phil]

Sorry but it doesn't matter how you dress it up our players don't seem to have the pride, passion or enthusiasm for this kind of match. We've seen it before and we'd see it again and with it would come fan apathy.

Fact is that Yorkshire and Lancashire don't really hate each other like queensland and NSW do. We have a bit of banter but thats it. We tried to remarket it as "County of Origin" and it was like watching a charity runabout.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Phil

[BringBacktheBiff]

Yup, that'll really grow the sport outside the heartlands. All us folk in Hampshire would really get behind a Yorks / Lancs thing.

Because theres loads of RL fans in Hampshire isnt there. The games would be sell outs in the heartlands, so what if the people outside dont like it. Im all for expansion but seen as though the vast majority of Englands players come from Yorks or Lancs it seems the sensible bridge between SL and test matches. In 10 years time if the game has developed enough in places like hampshire then it could be reviewed and if necessary scrapped.

[no13benny]

Heartland v New Territories Alliance. Some logos for fun.

v

I'd like to see that series, anyway.

Either that or England RL v Barbarians RL

[Bleep1673]

England v Barbarians, great idea, I wonder why no-one else has thought of it (Sarcasm).

Thats what I have been suggesting from the start of the thread,however you call it

England I v Other nationalities/Barbarians/Championship/ England II/Possibles.

We need a more serious challenge than France once a season, with a view to the 4 Nations & a World Cup performance better than 2008, and the wendyballers, and it can be fitted into the season, just extend it by 1 week and play the extra 2 fixtures mid week either side of a blank weekend (Thurs & Tues).

State of Origin is played midweek between two weekends of full fixtures in all 3 SOO games

Edited July 14, 2010 by Bleep1673

[no13benny]

Oh was that sarcasm? (Sarcasm)