Quins..

[bowes]

a few amateur clubs springing up in the east now also (hainault, brentwood, Phantoms RL, essex eels) .. and only a 20min drive from the skolars on the north circular.. close to the motorway for away fans, or central line for anyone coming down on the train.

They folded 4 years ago

[EastLondonMike]

did they?!.. who am i thinking of then?!.. sure there was another essex side.. oh well..

[thirteenthman]

It is interesting to read Stevo's now weekly references to the problems at Quins, as he usually seems to know what's going on there. You'd have to think there'll come a point where David Hughes can take no more propping the club up all by himself. Question is will the RFL stand by and let the club go to the wall? Surely if a new backer was interested they would've come forward by now. If no one wants to come in and Hughes wants out what can the RFL do?

As for the biggest mistake the club made being the move to The Stoop, surely it was ditching the Broncos name in favour of Harlequins. I know why they did it, but I really do think it's working against them. Whatever people thought of the London Broncos name, it was associated with RL - Harlequins isn't. Never has been, never will be.

[skep155]

Just did a google search and as mentioned by another user Hemel Hempstead council are looking into building a 5,000 all seater stadium for the footy team and the stags. Very interesting comments from the Hemel chairman in the article as well, said the RFL really want them to step up to the Championship and the only thing preventing it from happening is the lack of an adequate stadium. A town like Hemel on the outskirts of London would be an ideal place for a London SL team IMO, a decent sized town with no other pro sports in the immediate area.

[THE RED ROOSTER]

A couple of points not mentioned in the thread.

First off Mike Stephenson is not only based in London during the season but played the role of "matchmaker" when Ian Lenargan first joined the Quins board. He is a familiar face at the Stoop and "rumours" reported by him are more credible than internet tittle-tattle...

One of the things I picked up on from David Hughes at the fans forum back in April - and due to a degree of self censorship did not include in the write-up on here, was David's response to a question about the tenancy at the Stoop which was prefaced by "in the medium term" . Now I do not report comments like that on here normally as certain individuals get out the proletarian calculator and make 2 + 2 = 4325 to suit their own fantasy world but I certainly had a sense that the Harlequins experiment is not cast in stone.

NB - The proposed joint London v Leeds double header mentioned at the forum is off as the Union club play Leeds Carnegie on 28 November.. make of that what you will.

The club is undercapitalised we know. Even with David servicing the debt, the size of the losses (

[shrek]

Just did a google search and as mentioned by another user Hemel Hempstead council are looking into building a 5,000 all seater stadium for the footy team and the stags. Very interesting comments from the Hemel chairman in the article as well, said the RFL really want them to step up to the Championship and the only thing preventing it from happening is the lack of an adequate stadium. A town like Hemel on the outskirts of London would be an ideal place for a London SL team IMO, a decent sized town with no other pro sports in the immediate area.

Good for Hemel, but I'd be disappointed personally to see London end up there. Its been a long road for Hemel, I remember watching them in the Alliance many moons ago, be great to see them in the Championship and developing from the roots up instead of the franchised high risk top down approach.

Edited July 20, 2010 by shrek

[bowes]

did they?!.. who am i thinking of then?!.. sure there was another essex side.. oh well..

Eastern Rhinos from Colchester are the only other one. Brentwood Elvers were run by the same people as Essex Eels but when the original reckless owners bailed (who had not only taken them into NL3 but left them there after a year when they were obviously not even close to up to it and moved them from their home base in Basildon to a 5000 capacity ground in Romford) the new more responsible ones realised they had to separate the juniors as that was the part most worth keeping. They tried to save the adults but it was too little too late and with the rise of Hainault Bulldogs the area was well covered

[bowes]

Just did a google search and as mentioned by another user Hemel Hempstead council are looking into building a 5,000 all seater stadium for the footy team and the stags. Very interesting comments from the Hemel chairman in the article as well, said the RFL really want them to step up to the Championship and the only thing preventing it from happening is the lack of an adequate stadium. A town like Hemel on the outskirts of London would be an ideal place for a London SL team IMO, a decent sized town with no other pro sports in the immediate area.

The other problems are finances and playing standardd (you can't just ship in Aussies now), the RFL seem happy with Hemel's junior development work especially that they enter a National Youth League side.

I'd imagine when Championship licensing comes in the standards would be lowered enough for Hemel to slot into whatever replaces C1 (though depends how big the Championship becomes)

[Pottsy]

As for the biggest mistake the club made being the move to The Stoop, surely it was ditching the Broncos name in favour of Harlequins. I know why they did it, but I really do think it's working against them. Whatever people thought of the London Broncos name, it was associated with RL - Harlequins isn't. Never has been, never will be.

True dat

[Jeff Stein]

Eastern Rhinos from Colchester are the only other one. Brentwood Elvers were run by the same people as Essex Eels but when the original reckless owners bailed (who had not only taken them into NL3 but left them there after a year when they were obviously not even close to up to it and moved them from their home base in Basildon to a 5000 capacity ground in Romford) the new more responsible ones realised they had to separate the juniors as that was the part most worth keeping. They tried to save the adults but it was too little too late and with the rise of Hainault Bulldogs the area was well covered

If you must keep up your tedious obsession with the Eels may I suggest that you occasionally print something that is vaguely true. There were no owners. It was an amateur club. There is no 5000 capacity ground for any sport in Romford (not even the dog track holds that many). They played at the end at Romford and Gidea Park RU which has a grand total of zero stands. Try posting something that is not a figment of your imagination.

[RP London]

It is interesting to read Stevo's now weekly references to the problems at Quins, as he usually seems to know what's going on there. You'd have to think there'll come a point where David Hughes can take no more propping the club up all by himself. Question is will the RFL stand by and let the club go to the wall? Surely if a new backer was interested they would've come forward by now. If no one wants to come in and Hughes wants out what can the RFL do?

As for the biggest mistake the club made being the move to The Stoop, surely it was ditching the Broncos name in favour of Harlequins. I know why they did it, but I really do think it's working against them. Whatever people thought of the London Broncos name, it was associated with RL - Harlequins isn't. Never has been, never will be.

bit in bold.

i have another "theory" on that.. yes the debt etc may be putting people off but ifi was looking at it as a serious investor wanting to see it work to turn me a nice tidy sum rather than someone investing in the club becuase i love RL and want to see it work in London becuase its RL then i would be looking at it but doing sweet FAabout it at the moment.. It would cos a lot to buy and to put right.. however, the cost will be coming down the more uncertain things get, with the economy doing what it is doing adn the uncertainty about football clubs being able to pay the bills i would be holidng my horses for 6 months to ayear when a few more clubs get shaky and either invest in those or buy quins for a nock down panic sell fee, have already negotatied with a cash strapped football club near the edge and get it shifted and linked in..

there may be many interested but timing wise keeping well away to keep watching the price and other issues go down and down.. any interest measn the prioce would steady/go up..

on another note if they were to move to Orients ground then why not "Eastern Orient" or "London Orient" play in the quins away shirt from this year which is a fantastic shirt... the Orient name is unique and fantastic in itself .. i am not sure if i would chuck london back in the name as i dont believe it does anything, a smaller catchement ala the sydney names is better IMO. (if they moved to the city i would then have london city but that obviously wont happen).

IF orient ere happy for quins to move in, and were no charging rediculous rent etc then it would have to be looked at as there really arent many options available.. but i do like the idea of trying to buy into something smaller, get funding to build it up and the RFL to give them time on the criteria to get it done right.

[Lobbygobbler]

bit in bold.

i have another "theory" on that.. yes the debt etc may be putting people off but ifi was looking at it as a serious investor wanting to see it work to turn me a nice tidy sum rather than someone investing in the club becuase i love RL and want to see it work in London becuase its RL then i would be looking at it but doing sweet FAabout it at the moment.. It would cos a lot to buy and to put right.. however, the cost will be coming down the more uncertain things get, with the economy doing what it is doing adn the uncertainty about football clubs being able to pay the bills i would be holidng my horses for 6 months to ayear when a few more clubs get shaky and either invest in those or buy quins for a nock down panic sell fee, have already negotatied with a cash strapped football club near the edge and get it shifted and linked in..

there may be many interested but timing wise keeping well away to keep watching the price and other issues go down and down.. any interest measn the prioce would steady/go up..

on another note if they were to move to Orients ground then why not "Eastern Orient" or "London Orient" play in the quins away shirt from this year which is a fantastic shirt... the Orient name is unique and fantastic in itself .. i am not sure if i would chuck london back in the name as i dont believe it does anything, a smaller catchement ala the sydney names is better IMO. (if they moved to the city i would then have london city but that obviously wont happen).

IF orient ere happy for quins to move in, and were no charging rediculous rent etc then it would have to be looked at as there really arent many options available.. but i do like the idea of trying to buy into something smaller, get funding to build it up and the RFL to give them time on the criteria to get it done right.

Even if the rent were higher it might be worth it IF crowds could be bigger, and for me this is absolutely essential. I'm sure they could.

[bowes]

If you must keep up your tedious obsession with the Eels may I suggest that you occasionally print something that is vaguely true. There were no owners. It was an amateur club. There is no 5000 capacity ground for any sport in Romford (not even the dog track holds that many). They played at the end at Romford and Gidea Park RU which has a grand total of zero stands. Try posting something that is not a figment of your imagination.

It got talked up as a big ground, probably more than it was, but yes the capacity of 5000 was Kent Ravens in retrospect (another overambitious club).

Either way Essex Eels did the world of harm to the image of National League 3 as a serious league (they weren't the only side) and putting young players new to the sport against top amateur sides was incredibly reckless at best and the main reason the RFL should have stepped in much earlier than they did. Unfortunately the concept of that big a national spread wasn't workable anyway as can be told by the teams good enough on the pitch that travelling was too much for (Coventry, South London, St Albans)

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

Really?

Players can be replaced more easily than a place to play. If Quins chuck you out or up the rent then suddenly it's much more serious to worry about. Plus crowds are poor and if anything falling and so the chance of somewhere cheaper to rent with bigger crowds is a huge deal

There's no point in having a ground without a club to play on it and without David Hughes' money that's what's going to happen.

[Jeff Stein]

It got talked up as a big ground, probably more than it was, but yes the capacity of 5000 was Kent Ravens in retrospect (another overambitious club).

Either way Essex Eels did the world of harm to the image of National League 3 as a serious league (they weren't the only side) and putting young players new to the sport against top amateur sides was incredibly reckless at best and the main reason the RFL should have stepped in much earlier than they did. Unfortunately the concept of that big a national spread wasn't workable anyway as can be told by the teams good enough on the pitch that travelling was too much for (Coventry, South London, St Albans)

You still have to keep going don't you? You have printed absolutely untrue statements and do not have the guts to admit it. You know absolutely nothing about what happened at the Eels and therefore I suggest you just give it a rest now.

[Spicer]

You still have to keep going don't you? You have printed absolutely untrue statements and do not have the guts to admit it. You know absolutely nothing about what happened at the Eels and therefore I suggest you just give it a rest now.

He cant JS he is totally obsessed by the Eels as his previous ramblings have shown.

[RP London]

You still have to keep going don't you? You have printed absolutely untrue statements and do not have the guts to admit it. You know absolutely nothing about what happened at the Eels and therefore I suggest you just give it a rest now.

hes got a point bowes...

you want the RFL to step in but the RFL encouraged essex in before they wanted to go in from my understanding... there was a lot behind the rise in numbers including birmingham and essex ealrier than the original RFL plan and perhas the plans of the clubs.. its a complicated scenrio but to blame essex and anyone connected with it for all of this is way off the mark. (and off topic for that matter)

[RP London]

Even if the rent were higher it might be worth it IF crowds could be bigger, and for me this is absolutely essential. I'm sure they could.

problem is as always.. its a lot of "coulds" and "i believes" and "i'm sure" with no real basis except what you think/hope could happen.. with money being a major worry can clubs really risk a higher rent for an "i hope" bigger crowd etc? there has to be a lot of things which include the club who owns the ground being actually interested and the exact raise in rent vs rise in crowds vs rise in other income etc.. will more sponsors come on board, will you lose some sponsors becuase of the move, more corporate will any corpoate be lost etc etc.. so much more thanjust crowds have to be thought of in the move.

[Lobbygobbler]

problem is as always.. its a lot of "coulds" and "i believes" and "i'm sure" with no real basis except what you think/hope could happen.. with money being a major worry can clubs really risk a higher rent for an "i hope" bigger crowd etc? there has to be a lot of things which include the club who owns the ground being actually interested and the exact raise in rent vs rise in crowds vs rise in other income etc.. will more sponsors come on board, will you lose some sponsors becuase of the move, more corporate will any corpoate be lost etc etc.. so much more thanjust crowds have to be thought of in the move.

Well for a start, crowds have always been relatively higher away from the Stoop

Now, assuming somewhere like Orient could be found (i.e. around 10k stadium), the club could do well to learn lessons from the past, i.e.

- Play with no americanised nickname, i.e. just as London RLFC (as on the club badge in 2000), or play using a locally affiliated name (like Fulham). It doesn't wash with Londoners

- Open the entire stadium. Closing more than at least one side off looks unambitious and badly affects the atmosphere. The club fecked up here at Griffin Park, and did not persevere with experiments to open more sides up

- Keep the good work with local players and youth (the only good thing happending at the moment)

- Do not use any Australian compere's or spokespeople - It makes RL look foreign

- Choose a decent fixed Kick-Off time (i.e. either 5pm on Saturday, or 3pm on Sunday)

[RP London]

Well for a start, crowds have always been relatively higher away from the Stoop

Now, assuming somewhere like Orient could be found (i.e. around 10k stadium), the club could do well to learn lessons from the past, i.e.

- Play with no americanised nickname, i.e. just as London RLFC (as on the club badge in 2000), or play using a locally affiliated name (like Fulham). It doesn't wash with Londoners

- Open the entire stadium. Closing more than at least one side off looks unambitious and badly affects the atmosphere. The club fecked up here at Griffin Park, and did not persevere with experiments to open more sides up

- Keep the good work with local players and youth (the only good thing happending at the moment)

- Do not use any Australian compere's or spokespeople - It makes RL look foreign

- Choose a decent fixed Kick-Off time (i.e. either 5pm on Saturday, or 3pm on Sunday)

it doesnt matter if they are higher away from the stoop.. its all about relativity.. are they higher so the rent is the same or less.. what about sponsorship etc.. not only that but if we say went to orient it is an area the club hasnever been to before so you have no "always away from the stoop" to go on.

1. i dont think your right "it doesnt wash with londoners" i dont think it matters that much to be honest there is more to the issues of popularity and fans though gates than that IMHO.. however i would still stick with a more localised name

2. depends on the cost of opening the full stadium, staff numbers etc compared to the number thorugh hte gate.. if the cost is not outweighed by the increase in bums on seats then it would be idiotic in the extreme to do this.

3. stupid not to no one would stop this

4. IMHO this is your little pet hate but it bothers no one else and has no effect on anyone.. the kids we took never gave a sh*t

5. depends on what gets most people through the gates but i am sure the club would always pick he best kick off time they can have with regards to what the club whos ground it is is willing for them to have, the police are happy with etc etc..

Edited July 21, 2010 by RP London

[dallymessenger]

toulose should be given a chance if quins fails.

[bowes]

There's no point in having a ground without a club to play on it and without David Hughes' money that's what's going to happen.

Fair point, that's number 1 issue with ground and location 2nd IMO

[bowes]

hes got a point bowes...

you want the RFL to step in but the RFL encouraged essex in before they wanted to go in from my understanding... there was a lot behind the rise in numbers including birmingham and essex ealrier than the original RFL plan and perhas the plans of the clubs.. its a complicated scenrio but to blame essex and anyone connected with it for all of this is way off the mark. (and off topic for that matter)

As far as I know:

For 2004 Essex Eels applied and initially got rejected as did Bramley; Carlisle and Birmingham got promoted. Later on appeal Bramley were let in and they needed a southern side to make up the numbers and Essex were the only ones interested. A few weeks later Teesside folded so the RFL could have got their even balance and 12 teams anyway, but obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing.

By stepping up Essex Eels lost RU players (logically because of the crossover) and were weaker than the side finishing midtable in the East division. After a poor season the RFL tried to drop them to the South Premier and they kicked up a fuss and appealed and around that time South London dropped out so the RFL thought it was easier to let them in.

At the end of the season they still weren't keen on dropping but the RFL stopped all or some of their central handout in part as a fine to cover Warrington Wizards cost when Essex Eels couldn't raise a team at home (away up north they managed with Pennine League players) and they entered financial ruins and new people tried to save them but managed to save the most important part, the juniors.

Either way their open age were always a joke, good juniors doesn't improve the standard of your first team. It was always going to fail miserably putting them in NL3 that early and they represented everything wrong with rushing expansion

[nadera78]

Tooting and Mitcham FC is an interesting idea. The current capacity is 3,500.

There are 600 seats on one touchline, with an impressive fitness club behind it. This stand covers about half the length of the pitch so could theoretically be doubled in capacity. There are covered terraces behind the goals, and behind these are an open area of parkland and a 3G pitch. The touchline opposite the small stand is currently open parkland although the club released plans to build another 600 seat stand with function suites, etc on this area. I don't think anything has actually happened about building this though. There is enough space there to extend the stadium, but I don't think the capacity could ever exceed 10,000 so it would always be below SL standards. There are decent transport links locally though and it is a nice little stadium.

IIRC the football club (and the stadium) are actually owned by the fitness club for some reason or other.

A couple of other local options would be Sutton United and Carshalton Athletic, both of whom have space to extend their grounds considerably and would be areas more conducive to RL teams.

What's becoming increasingly clear in London is that development seems to be going on in two areas; south London and north-east London. There is very little in west, north-west, north or central areas of the city. I think we're moving towards two hubs and the pro club would be better off grabbing one of these and focusing on it.

Edited July 21, 2010 by nadera78

[Essex Man]

where on earth do you get your info from bowes? you seem to know a hell of a lot about the Eels

"What's becoming increasingly clear in London is that development seems to be going on in two areas; south London and north-east London. There is very little in west, north-west, north or central areas of the city. I think we're moving towards two hubs and the pro club would be better off grabbing one of these and focusing on it."

Excuse me??? the development in West London is entirely proffesional by Quin's/RFL staff, it's West London that is the main focus of Quin's activity in the community game, according to the londonrl website, there's 23 of them,the development in Essex, Kent, South East London is done entirely by volunteer's, if any of them get a visit from Quin's at all in a season they're lucky.

Hainault Bulldogs did have an evening training/masterclass session at junior level with half a dozen or so first team Quins players, organised by Danny Orr's wife other than that, no help in the area what so ever.

Should any player from over this side of Londonmanage to get into Quins acadamey, they have to travel to West London to train, ok when they're at school and finish earlyenough to make it round the '25 but once at college or at work, no chance, even on a good day it's an hour and half drive from the Elvers ground, even more so from Colchester,god forbid someone might make the journey out here

Edited July 21, 2010 by Essex Man