15 years on

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

In 2009 seven NL1 clubs who have had SL aspirations moved into the new NL season with a sense of being shut out by SL franchising with not a great deal of prospect of ever getting in again.

They were Halifax, Barrow Leigh Fev, Whitehaven, Dewsbury and keighley.

Those clubs averaged gates of 2645 in 1995 before Superleague. Shut out by Superleague today their current average gate is 1712 for 2009. A loss across the seven clubs of 6,531 spectators - you and Terry have a point to be fair.

In contrast the seven clubs whom have been most priveliged by Superleague and Franchising protection are Leeds, Saints, Fartown, Wigan, Bradford, Wire and Hull.

Fully protected by franchising their crowds have gone from an average of 7469 in 1995 to 11400 in 2009 an average increase of fans across the seven clubs of 27,517.

These are the facts from the official stats as presented by the yearbooks, and as best presented in light of the debate's basis. Superleague franchising is unfair, but damn good business with a nett gain in tarditional M62 support of 21,000 fans - where they come from I don't know but the fan who went to his first game in Hull last night, his money is as good as the money I spent when I went all over with Hunslet over many years.

We are owed nothing by the game guys, the game owes it to itself to grow and go forward.....

I'd have thought the bulk of these increases would have already occurred before franchising.

[Hornetto]

So the Balmain/ Western Suburbs merger didnt work did it? The Wests Tigers are one of the best teams in the NRL, great fan base and won the premiership in '05. I think the Cumbrian team and SOuth Yorkshire team would be a success in SL.

Wests Tigers is a JV, not a merger. There's a big difference. And there were rumblings a couple of months ago that Balmain wanted out. And we all know what happened at Northern Eagles.

Illawarra St George Dragons is a top-down, straight-through, bottom-up merger - but you don't see many Steelers shirts there these days...

[Hornetto]

Time now for the lower tier pro sides to secure their own destiny, no more blokes with a pot of gold out there and SL aint going to look after you, merge now (Oldham, Hornets, Swinton) its the only way to get out of the weeds.

We're a supporter-owned co-operative with a community remit. Merging does not work to the benefit of the community we represent. Our rules dictate that we exist to benefit the sporting public and wider community of Rochdale So it's never, ever - ever - going to happen.

The sooner people get their heads round the fact that success doesn't have to = being in superleague, the less complicated life becomes.

You think that life at our level is 'in the weeds'? I don't care - it's not a bad place to be, just a different place to the perfectly manicured perfumed garden of Murdoch-ball. And I - for one - quite like it.

[BringBacktheBiff]

Wests Tigers is a JV, not a merger. There's a big difference. And there were rumblings a couple of months ago that Balmain wanted out. And we all know what happened at Northern Eagles.

Illawarra St George Dragons is a top-down, straight-through, bottom-up merger - but you don't see many Steelers shirts there these days...

I see, could Joint Ventures not work over here with the likes of say Doncaster and Sheffield playing in the Championship as feeder teams to a South Yorkshire Franchise?

[Hornetto]

I see, could Joint Ventures not work over here with the likes of say Doncaster and Sheffield playing in the Championship as feeder teams to a South Yorkshire Franchise?

If the clubs and the fans wanted it, anything's viable. In the NSW Cup, there are hard-core, old-school Balmain and Magpies fans who watch JUST the NSW Cup side. And good on them for that.

[Trojan]

. Exciting times ahead.

2. "Unfair" means nothing, life and business is unfair, the NRL and the USA football leagues aren't doomed at all so stick to that nonsense if you like. As for Wakeys crowds history shows this city club has many more times the potential for big crowds than Fev. Not having a go but Fev have always struggled for crowds even when at the top.

But it does in sport. That's the whole point of "sport" the phrase "sporting chance" means fairness.

[Hornetto]

!

I will wager now that a large slice of "supporters" in Leigh, Oldham, Rochdale, Hunslet etc would declare Jihad at the very mention of a merger ................................... yet have not attended one game in two seasons!

Yes I would - and I've watched us home and away for as long as I can remember. I wouldn't go to Neath to watch a merged entity. But, then again, I wouldn't go to Spotland to watch a merged entity either.

[Sleeper]

Yes I would - and I've watched us home and away for as long as I can remember. I wouldn't go to Neath to watch a merged entity. But, then again, I wouldn't go to Spotland to watch a merged entity either.

You only support my argument! Take what joy you can from the Hornets and er, the acceptance of mediocrity and no, its not meant as a dig.

Edited July 24, 2010 by Sleeper

[Sleeper]

You sort of assume that there is place to be has at the top table for want of a merger.

An entity formed of Oldham, Rochdale and Swinton would be competitive in the co-op championship and that is it. There is a place in SL for a Manchester franchise and Salford have it, so merge away.

The urge for Cas, Wakey and Fev to merge only exists to create an opening in SL. If it happened they would inherit one franchise for now but in the long term that entity would end up where Fev is now and where Cas & Wakey are headed.

Fans think a merger in Cumbria would get a franchise but I personally doubt it.

Merging like voting changes nothing.

I assume nowt!

Oldham, Swinton and Rochdale will not dominate the Championship or Championship 1 as a standalone entity this side of 2015 (probably), Oldham might! As a merged outfit they might and in accord with franchise demands might, just might gain SL status and to be fair ........... the Oldham, Swinton, Hornets thingy was very much by way of example not a recommendation!

[The Parksider]

I'd have thought the bulk of these increases would have already occurred before franchising.

You'd better read your history of RL, you will find such as Paris and Gateshead being parachuted straight into SL taking an NL clubs place quite a number of years ago, you will find that the top clubs were given millions whilst the NL clubs weren't many years ago, the whole process of privelige for the few started in 1996........

I thought someone would come along and try to unpick the simple fact that Superleague has polarised the game, but has attracted a nett increase in fans.

Isn't it time to get off for the golf anyway??

[Red Willow]

Mergers are rarely that, they are a takeove by a stronger club.

RL in England have seem the mergers of Gateshead and Sheffield into new merged clubs. the stronger partner have benefited but the weaker haven't.

Had Oldham and Salford merged there are no guarantees that either club would have survived, much would have depended who ran the company.

[Hornetto]

You only support my argument! Take what joy you can from the Hornets and er, the acceptance of mediocrity and no, its not meant as a dig.

You talk in terms of 'mediocrity', but in any hierarchial system, you need some elements at the top, some in the middle and some at the bottom. However you cook it, not every element involved can be at the top.

Ipso Facto RL, teams find the level at which they can best function at any given time. If we were to be promoted via the playoffs this term, you could patronise some other clubs.

It's always easy for supporters of larger clubs - or those detached from the week to week reality of life in the Championships - to moot mergers, but RL doesn't equal SL and I enjoy the competition of CC1 and the community element of what my club does.

If we existed like this at this level for the next 50 years whilst other clubs gambled on SL success and failed, I'd be happy. And right.

[Keith T]

Mergers are rarely that, they are a takeove by a stronger club.

RL in England have seem the mergers of Gateshead and Sheffield into new merged clubs. the stronger partner have benefited but the weaker haven't.

Had Oldham and Salford merged there are no guarantees that either club would have survived, much would have depended who ran the company.

Why do people always talk about mergers? Workington and Whitehaven are two mediocre teams, both financially stretched with no significant stronger team but both carry too much baggage to merge in to one unit. However, a fresh new club formed, serving both towns (6 miles apart), would certainly have a very good chance of success. It would certainly have more chance of success than the two current clubs.

[nec]

Why do people always talk about mergers? Workington and Whitehaven are two mediocre teams, both financially stretched with no significant stronger team but both carry too much baggage to merge in to one unit. However, a fresh new club formed, serving both towns (6 miles apart), would certainly have a very good chance of success. It would certainly have more chance of success than the two current clubs.

So, a joint venture?

[Sleeper]

You talk in terms of 'mediocrity', but in any hierarchial system, you need some elements at the top, some in the middle and some at the bottom. However you cook it, not every element involved can be at the top.

Ipso Facto RL, teams find the level at which they can best function at any given time. If we were to be promoted via the playoffs this term, you could patronise some other clubs.

It's always easy for supporters of larger clubs - or those detached from the week to week reality of life in the Championships - to moot mergers, but RL doesn't equal SL and I enjoy the competition of CC1 and the community element of what my club does.

If we existed like this at this level for the next 50 years whilst other clubs gambled on SL success and failed, I'd be happy. And right.

Separate the sport and "community element" from business and yeah, I'd be in full agreement but by doing that you accept by aiming for the tree tops you acknowledge you might not even get off the ground, aim for the sky and you might reach the tree tops! First and foremost RL is a business, the community element bit comes a close second.

I suppose its all down to a preference, me as a supporter of a lower tier RL club I'd swop it all for a successful North Manchester Titans .................. or something else.

[Hornetto]

Separate the sport and "community element" from business and yeah, I'd be in full agreement but by doing that you accept by aiming for the tree tops you acknowledge you might not even get off the ground, aim for the sky and you might reach the tree tops! First and foremost RL is a business, the community element bit comes a close second.

I suppose its all down to a preference, me as a supporter of a lower tier RL club I'd swop it all for a successful North Manchester Titans .................. or something else.

Not if you're a not for profit Industrial and Provident society it doesn't. Sustainability, financially viable competitiveness and a community focus take equal precedent.

But then again, we could be a 'aim for the sky' basket case like Blackpool - and we all know where that's heading.

If my club ever merged in any shape, the great likelihood would be that the conference would have a new Rochdale community club within two years. Probably playing at merit level to start with, and I'd be there week in week out and not watching some manufactured merged entity that means nothing to me.

You really do have to stop measuring success by proximity to SL.

[RP London]

Not if you're a not for profit Industrial and Provident society it doesn't. Sustainability, financially viable competitiveness and a community focus take equal precedent.

But then again, we could be a 'aim for the sky' basket case like Blackpool - and we all know where that's heading.

If my club ever merged in any shape, the great likelihood would be that the conference would have a new Rochdale community club within two years. Probably playing at merit level to start with, and I'd be there week in week out and not watching some manufactured merged entity that means nothing to me.

You really do have to stop measuring success by proximity to SL.

but surely the thing is that that is aboslutely fine.. and you may find that Rochdale attracts those p*ssed off fans that a"North Manchester Titans" creates.. however, three will be a good number that feel the same way as Sleeper and would go and watch the NMTs and beyond those already interested in teams a more general North Manchester Titans side may well attract a brand new bread and set of speccies from areas that before hand would not have been interested due to the parochialism of some of the teams and names even.

For all those that are Rochdale through and through how many people int he surrounding area wouold not go and watch Rochdale unless it were on fire? how many dont go to watch their "local" team becuase to them it is not local to them?

This can then be encompassed in these merged entities.

For example: When Sheffield "merged" with Huddersfield and the Sheffield fans pulled away from the game how many went to Doncaster? if it happened again and Sheffield were no more how many would go to Doncaster? how many from DOncaster would go to sheffield? not many i would hazard a guess.. yet a merged entity between the two that didnt have Doncaster or Sheffield in the name necessarily would attract a large number of these speccies for super league, not only that but it would stand a chance of bringng in fans from all over the area, those in Rotherham who may not want to go and watch a "sheffield" side etc..

I dont really know which is right the above is just another way to look at it IMO..

in the same way as you should not measure everything by the SL you should not go ahead with things due to a minority, very vocal that it can be it may well be the minority of that larger area your trying to hit and enourage through the door.

Edited July 27, 2010 by RP London

[Trojan]

For example: When Sheffield "merged" with Huddersfield and the Sheffield fans pulled away from the game how many went to Doncaster? if it happened again and Sheffield were no more how many would go to Doncaster? how many from DOncaster would go to sheffield? not many i would hazard a guess.. yet a merged entity between the two that didnt have Doncaster or Sheffield in the name necessarily would attract a large number of these speccies for super league, not only that but it would stand a chance of bringng in fans from all over the area, those in Rotherham who may not want to go and watch a "sheffield" side etc..

As I've pointed out before, it's a leisure activity. It's not something you have to do. I count myself a Fev fan, but I don't go as often as I ought. If they're playing at a time that's not convenient for me I give it a miss. They're having their most successful season since 1983, but so what? They'll probably finish top of the Championship, but unless they win the playoffs it won't count for anything. And even if they do win it - there's no guarantee they'll get any reward. I'll probably make more effort with the playoff games. But my heart's not in like it used to be. If Fev ceased to exist I wouldn't go to Wakey, or Cas, or the Bulls, or Leeds. I might watch Shaw Cross on a Saturday afternoon and attend GF and the occasional test match. But TBH the ending of P&R has spoiled it a bit for me. As I posted somewhere else, the edge has gone.

[RP London]

As I've pointed out before, it's a leisure activity. It's not something you have to do. I count myself a Fev fan, but I don't go as often as I ought. If they're playing at a time that's not convenient for me I give it a miss. They're having their most successful season since 1983, but so what? They'll probably finish top of the Championship, but unless they win the playoffs it won't count for anything. And even if they do win it - there's no guarantee they'll get any reward. I'll probably make more effort with the playoff games. But my heart's not in like it used to be. If Fev ceased to exist I wouldn't go to Wakey, or Cas, or the Bulls, or Leeds. I might watch Shaw Cross on a Saturday afternoon and attend GF and the occasional test match. But TBH the ending of P&R has spoiled it a bit for me. As I posted somewhere else, the edge has gone.

i dont know what that has to do with the bit of my post you quoted to be honest.. especialy when put in with the rest of the post which said:

but surely the thing is that that is aboslutely fine.. and you may find that Rochdale attracts those p*ssed off fans that a"North Manchester Titans" creates.. however, three will be a good number that feel the same way as Sleeper and would go and watch the NMTs and beyond those already interested in teams a more general North Manchester Titans side may well attract a brand new bread and set of speccies from areas that before hand would not have been interested due to the parochialism of some of the teams and names even.

For all those that are Rochdale through and through how many people int he surrounding area wouold not go and watch Rochdale unless it were on fire? how many dont go to watch their "local" team becuase to them it is not local to them?

so you may be one of those lost.. but how many will be attracted.. if the attracted does not outweigh the lost then fair enough THAT merger is not a goer.. it doesnt mean all arent and if the attracted does outweigh the lost then maybe its worth doing.

[Trojan]

so you may be one of those lost.. but how many will be attracted.. if the attracted does not outweigh the lost then fair enough THAT merger is not a goer.. it doesnt mean all arent and if the attracted does outweigh the lost then maybe its worth doing.

It's a leisure activity. It's not something you have to do. You have to buy food, if Morrisons closes then you have to go to Asda. If Featherstone Rovers closes I can stop at home. Same goes for Sheffield fans too. Or find some other leisure activity. I'm not alone in feeling like this. Look at the posts on the Championship sites if you don't believe me.

[RP London]

It's a leisure activity. It's not something you have to do. You have to buy food, if Morrisons closes then you have to go to Asda. If Featherstone Rovers closes I can stop at home. Same goes for Sheffield fans too. Or find some other leisure activity.

and AS I SAY that is fine.. (i dont understand the relevance of "its a leisure activity").. but how many will be attracted to these new clubs compared to those that are lost.. as long as the numbers new outwiegh the numbers lost then go for it.. if not then dont...

what it is/isnt is irrelevant... wha you go and do afterwards is irrelevant.. the key is.. how many people in the area will stop watching a merged club vs how many people in the area will go to watch a merged club.. if the latter is bigger then it should be a merged club..

I'm not alone in feeling like this. Look at the posts on the Championship sites if you don't believe me.

again as i have said (i really dont think you read any of my posts)

in the same way as you should not measure everything by the SL you should not go ahead with things due to a minority, very vocal that it can be it may well be the minority of that larger area your trying to hit and enourage through the door.

as i say it can be a vocal minority but it can still be a minority...

the point is as i have said that mergers per se are not necessarily a bad thing.

[Trojan]

and AS I SAY that is fine.. (i dont understand the relevance of "its a leisure activity").. but how many will be attracted to these new clubs compared to those that are lost..

And the answer is they won't be. At least not in enough numbers to make the clubs viable. Because fans develop a loyalty over the years. To the club, to your mates who you watch with. Break that link and - there's no reason to go any more. Because you don't have to.

[nec]

And the answer is they won't be. At least not in enough numbers to make the clubs viable. Because fans develop a loyalty over the years. To the club, to your mates who you watch with. Break that link and - there's no reason to go any more. Because you don't have to.

That was said in Inverness prior to the merger there, the mergedclub gets gates many times larger than the combined crowds of the old clubs

[audois]

That was said in Inverness prior to the merger there, the mergedclub gets gates many times larger than the combined crowds of the old clubs

There was no one watching the game in Perpignan before the Dragons. XIII Catalan and St Esteve each averaging may be 5-600. Last season they took 100 coach loads of fans to Barcelona for Wire game. In the last year they've won what two or three home games and sit rock bottom. They'll average this year I reckon not far off 7000.

[RP London]

And the answer is they won't be. At least not in enough numbers to make the clubs viable. Because fans develop a loyalty over the years. To the club, to your mates who you watch with. Break that link and - there's no reason to go any more. Because you don't have to.

what about those without a link to break, what about those who just want to watch top flight rugby league?

what about those that dont go now to some of these clubs becuase they are not linked to them.. give them a club they feel a part of.. ie not Rochdale but north manchester, South Yorkshire not Sheffield.. maybe they will want to be involved then.. with the larger catchment area maybe more will come..

you say all the above and yet it has worked in some places with mergers in football, it has worked in RL in aus, it CAN work.. each merger needs to be taken on its own merits..

you and your mates may not want to go.. but if 3,000 more people do and we lose you and your mates then that is a price that is worth paying..

its about NEW people to the game as well as the old people... it is the old supporters that support the club due to the link and the whole point of mergers is that there are not enough of these old supporters with the link to make the clubs viable entities at the top level.. if there were (ie Saints, Bradford, Leeds, Wigan) the merger talk does not appear (unless we go back to 1995 at which point it was the whole "new era" idea) its only where one, two or three clubs in the same area are struggling that it gets mentioned.. you have a link fantastic, but that link and bond is not enough for enough people to make a viable top 2-3 teams in that one area.. sever the link, new team representing everyone and all of a sudden MAYBE there is a chance of the club being strong enough.

as i say i am not saying that all mergers will work or that all are viable but just becuase some people say "i wont go every again" is not a good enough reason to not do them.. its about long term good and that is about new supporters surely, and so mergers are all about will it attract new supporters and whether looking to the future the clubs as seperate entities will be viable at the top level in the future and if the top level is impotant to them.

Edited July 27, 2010 by RP London