Sticking at it in wrexham

[dallymessenger]

lets take the case of AFL :

they are expanding to gold coast and western sydney

do they make these teams play in the local VFL first and then only allow them into the AFL if they can match the existing clubs?

thats what proponents of bottom up expansion are asking for.

its mindless.

successful sports use top down expansion backed by cash from the governing body and good marketing.

[Maximus Decimus]

lets take the case of AFL :

they are expanding to gold coast and western sydney

do they make these teams play in the local VFL first and then only allow them into the AFL if they can match the existing clubs?

thats what proponents of bottom up expansion are asking for.

its mindless.

successful sports use top down expansion backed by cash from the governing body and good marketing.

There are 95,000 registered AFL players in NSW and ACT. There are 100,000 registered players in Queensland. Many more are aware of the sport as it is a truly national sport in Australia, probably the largest.

How many people play and are aware of RL in North Wales, Gateshead or Paris?

Edited August 25, 2010 by Maximus Decimus

[sgorpioncaerdyddrob]

I agree with all of the sentiments of Red Rooster. On our supporters trip to Hunslet last Sunday I found out more about Samuel's dodgy dealings and that the demise of the club was inevitable from as early as the beginning of the season. Its infuriating that all of this was going on behind the scenes completely underminning the club . Clearly the people of Bridgend don't trust Leyton Samuel as shown in the crowds as the Jack says and he has now been behind the collapse of the town's two professional Rugby Clubs. It still hurts now that people and their ego's destroyed something potentially big as I really enjoyed following the Celtic Crusaders more so than my other love CCFC. It brought many local people to the sport in general (including rekindling my interest) and thankfully some of them have stuck with the Crusaders up in Wrexham and/or support South Wales Scorpions .We now have a playing foundation here than can compete against established heartland clubs.

Wrexham should undoubtedly be persevered with as should the South. The crowds aren't bad regardless of the drop off from the beginning of the season, atleast they actually had a real budget to promote games and they have the financial backing and suitable people to run a professional club. None of this happened in Bridgend, the crowds were fairly constant around the 3,500 mark. I speak to people here now and more of them know about Crusaders RL than about CC as they get some positive coverage on Welsh TV now. A successful side will always get more fans , and the travelling support is certainly a big factor in the crowds up North. Should that be seen as a problem, no , not yet and not anytime soon. Some big improvments have been made but theres still a long way to go.

If we had the best parts of South (player development,financial potential) and North Wales (crowds, club management,stadium) behind a SL side it could be very very successful!

Edited August 25, 2010 by cardifcrusaderrob

[dallymessenger]

There are 95,000 registered AFL players in NSW and ACT. There are 100,000 registered players in Queensland. Many more are aware of the sport as it is a truly national sport in Australia, probably the largest.

How many people play and are aware of RL in North Wales, Gateshead or Paris?

AFL participation figures are meaningless. if you play 1 hour of AFL all year you are counted as a junior.

the last example of succesful bottom up expansion was Castleford in 1926

its now 2010.

[Maximus Decimus]

PSG worked fairly well in some cases. the problems were the players were also playing for LER clubs, a key aussie official keeping the club going was recalled to australia and the club having no gate money from tickets.

Gatehead also worked very well but the RFL didnt give them a fair share of Sky TV money.

even on your own analysis that wrexham are as strong as celtic crusaders, it still shows that top down wrexham are as good as bottom up CC.

and i think they are far stronger.

There's always excuses as to why these clubs fail, but the problem is that as soon as anything goes wrong the club is built on too shaky foundations to survive.

Gateshead didn't work very well, they were much better on the pitch than CC but their crowds were no better, dropping as low as 1500 at one point.

You haven't addressed the point that CC were not bottom up at all, they were as prepared as Hunslet are now. Do you not forget many, many people suggesting that they weren't ready and were another example of ill thought out top down expansion. You also haven't addressed the fact that Wrexham are reaping some of the benefits of this 'bottom up' expansion.

What makes me laugh most is that anybody who called CC a failure this time last year would have been shouted down and derided as a fervent traditionalist, when now every Tom, Dick and Harry is doing so.

[Maximus Decimus]

AFL participation figures are meaningless. if you play 1 hour of AFL all year you are counted as a junior.

the last example of succesful bottom up expansion was Castleford in 1926

its now 2010.

How many people played 1 hour of RL in North Wales last year?

Has there ever been a successful example of top down expansion in an area that has no RL played there?

[dallymessenger]

There's always excuses as to why these clubs fail, but the problem is that as soon as anything goes wrong the club is built on too shaky foundations to survive.

Gateshead didn't work very well, they were much better on the pitch than CC but their crowds were no better, dropping as low as 1500 at one point.

You haven't addressed the point that CC were not bottom up at all, they were as prepared as Hunslet are now. Do you not forget many, many people suggesting that they weren't ready and were another example of ill thought out top down expansion. You also haven't addressed the fact that Wrexham are reaping some of the benefits of this 'bottom up' expansion.

What makes me laugh most is that anybody who called CC a failure this time last year would have been shouted down and derided as a fervent traditionalist, when now every Tom, Dick and Harry is doing so.

without CC in SL there would be no Wrexham doing well and with an excellent chance of succeeding.

with 2 clubs being admitted into SL bottom up says the teams that finish top two go up

so yeah it was bottom up.

[Maximus Decimus]

without CC in SL there would be no Wrexham doing well and with an excellent chance of succeeding.

with 2 clubs being admitted into SL bottom up says the teams that finish top two go up

so yeah it was bottom up.

How would Hunslet go next year then?

By your reckoning Wrexham aren't top down either as they only have an excellent chance of succeeding because of CC.

I don't even know what that middle line is supposed to mean.

[dallymessenger]

How many people played 1 hour of RL in North Wales last year?

Has there ever been a successful example of top down expansion in an area that has no RL played there?

Australia 1908

PNG

France 1933

[dallymessenger]

How would Hunslet go next year then?

By your reckoning Wrexham aren't top down either as they only have an excellent chance of succeeding because of CC.

I don't even know what that middle line is supposed to mean.

salford finished first, Crusaders 2nd in the NL1 the year franchising was being decided. as two teams were being admitted into SL, the RFL just let in teams 1 and 2.

hunslet arent an expansion club so they arent worth taking a risk on.

as ive said before, you cant compare expansion teams with heartland teams.

[Maximus Decimus]

Australia 1908

PNG

France 1933

Why don't you add 1895 to it while your at it?

Aside from the fact that none of these were 'top down expansion' in anything like the way that we see it today and were in fact more akin to grassroots expansion, especially in the case of France. Amateur clubs springing up all over the place that developed a vibrant local competition.

[Maximus Decimus]

salford finished first, Crusaders 2nd in the NL1 the year franchising was being decided. as two teams were being admitted into SL, the RFL just let in teams 1 and 2.

hunslet arent an expansion club so they arent worth taking a risk on.

as ive said before, you cant compare expansion teams with heartland teams.

What has this got to do with bottom up expansion?

I'm not for one second suggesting Hunslet should be included but your suggesting that Crusaders were given 3 years to prepare for Super League. I've pointed out they are in almost exactly the same situation as Crusaders were in less than a year before the licensing decision. How well do you think you would go, how prepared for Super League are Hunslet right now?

[Mumby Magic]

Is it possible you two can bring this back to being constructive or PM each other with your disagreements?

Edited August 25, 2010 by Mumby Magic

[Bob8]

How many people played 1 hour of RL in North Wales last year?

Has there ever been a successful example of top down expansion in an area that has no RL played there?

I am certainly closer to your way of thinking. Generally, top down can only work with huge financial and media backing, and even then if has to be done very wisely (as we see with the failure of gridiron).

However, bottom-up is not practical either. In the last fifty years, I can think of few examples of that working.

The best examples we do have are of new amateur clubs, but no-one would really have identified Hemel Hempstead or Croydon, it just happened the right people were there at the right time for the right length of time. The expansion of the amateur game has been led by accepting what opportunities arise. This is far from ideal, but with little money and little exposure, there is also little choice. It therefore seems that Wrexham at the moment is the most exciting opportunity, albeit also by default.

Dally, A tour of non-rugby league areas would be an eye opener for you. Few people know rugby league exists and those that do will be stunned to learn that it i played in Australia.

[dallymessenger]

Why don't you add 1895 to it while your at it?

Aside from the fact that none of these were 'top down expansion' in anything like the way that we see it today and were in fact more akin to grassroots expansion, especially in the case of France. Amateur clubs springing up all over the place that developed a vibrant local competition.

so well just have to wait another 85 years for a club to set up grassroots, find backers, start off in division 2, get promoted to the championship win the championship, get crowds of 5000 etc etc etc?

i wish the AFL took your ideas on expansion, theyd be still in melbourne if they did

[dallymessenger]

I am certainly closer to your way of thinking. Generally, top down can only work with huge financial and media backing, and even then if has to be done very wisely (as we see with the failure of gridiron).

thats exactly what the RFl should be doing with its expansion clubs

each expansion club should get an additional 500,000 pounds pa from the TV money to help them financially and the RFL should spend something like 100,000 + pounds on advertising the sport in the expansion clubs country.

if you arent going to back expansion 100% then its not worth doing it

what the RFL has always done in the past re. expansion is to do it half baked and improperly funded, and when it doesnt work everyone just concludes expansion is doomed to failure

there are lots of examples of succesful expansion around the world

Edited August 25, 2010 by dallymessenger

[Bob8]

thats exactly what the RFl should be doing with its expansion clubs

each expansion club should get an additional 500,000 pounds pa from the TV money to help them financially and the RFL should spend something like 100,000 + pounds on advertising the sport in the expansion clubs country.

if you arent going to back expansion 100% then its not worth doing it

what the RFL has always done is do expansion half baked and improperly funded and when it doesnt work everyone just concludes expansion is doomed to failure

there are lots of examples of succesful expansion around the world

There would be the question of where this half million should be taken from. I would also question whether than minor level of investment would make much different. To raise the exposure to approximate rugby union, we would have to spend many 100,000,000's.

There are not the resources for novel top down expansion, but where the opportunity arises (such as with Wrexham) then it does indeed require the political will, which was certainly missing in the case of Gateshead. The example of Gateshead is one where I would certainly agree with you.

[Maximus Decimus]

so well just have to wait another 85 years for a club to set up grassroots, find backers, start off in division 2, get promoted to the championship win the championship, get crowds of 5000 etc etc etc?

i wish the AFL took your ideas on expansion, theyd be still in melbourne if they did

Or we'll carry on with your opinion and await our first success of top down expansion.

I've never said anything like what you're saying at the beginning, that's putting words in my mouth. The RFL are going the right way about it in putting more money into the grassroots, getting people actually playing the game there. Making people aware of the game before you stick a club in at the top level.

Wrexham have done some good things, but they are much better placed for the 4 years that CC had in Bridgend, for instance they can play actual Welsh players, they actually have an Academy team full of young Welsh kids. They are 4 years ahead of where they would have been without CC and their Championship years. When you plonk a team down from nowhere you don't have any of this and have to spend time getting it right which you often don't have.

[Mumby Magic]

Is it possible you two can bring this back to being constructive or PM each other with your disagreements?

[Maximus Decimus]

there are lots of examples of succesful expansion around the world

Care to name an example where a relatively minor sport with little money or exposure has managed to take off and establish itself through top level expansion? The only example I can think of remotely linked to what you're saying is the Belfast Giants Ice Hockey. There are many, many more examples that go the other way.

I'll tell you one, the AFL has managed to get 25,000 people playing the game in SA. Great expansion, but funnily enough there isn't an AFL franchise yet.

Look at the A-League which you probably heavily deride. Awareness of Football is massive in Australia and it is the most played sport. Yet just a few years in of a massive relaunch with many new franchises, it is really struggling with crowds dropping at an alarming rate after initial highs. They plonked a team in the Gold Coast that struggle to get a few thousand to a game.

[Maximus Decimus]

Is it possible you two can bring this back to being constructive or PM each other with your disagreements?

It amazes me what some people expect from a discussion board.

[Cofi]

Maximus Decimus:

Do you honestly want the Crusaders to succeed in Wrexham? Because you disagree with the way the club was allowed into the competition or because you disagree with the way the game has been and is being developed in Wales, you would, in all honesty, prefer that the Crusaders fail. Right?

A Wrexham failure would prove that you were right all along on the way that the game ought to be organised and developed.

I thought that an average attendance of 5000 was really positive news given the circumstances back in January but obviously not!

Have you been to Wrexham to see a game? I know it's not your club but seeing that you have an interest in the club's future and seeing that it isn't far from Widnes, I'd suggest that you come along to the game against Hull KR and see for yourself that there are many fans who share the sentiments of the new supporter quoted by Jannerboyuk in his original post.

[dallymessenger]

There would be the question of where this half million should be taken from. I would also question whether than minor level of investment would make much different. To raise the exposure to approximate rugby union, we would have to spend many 100,000,000's.

There are not the resources for novel top down expansion, but where the opportunity arises (such as with Wrexham) then it does indeed require the political will, which was certainly missing in the case of Gateshead. The example of Gateshead is one where I would certainly agree with you.

take the money from the other clubs, take it from other RFL revenues.

but expansion clubs need preferential financial treatment.

earlier on someone said wrexham had limited funds to spend on marketing games.

give expansion clubs more money, give them 10 years or so to work.

if it fails then at least we know its not through lack of trying

[dallymessenger]

It amazes me what some people expect from a discussion board.

more so that people bother posting in a thread they arent interested in

this is a healthy debate without any personal abuse.

[Mumby Magic]

It amazes me what some people expect from a discussion board.

It's one thing having a discussion and it's another thing going over the same arguement without any progress and appearing to squabble endlessly. Other posters are making points but you two seem to be overlooking most of this to continue your disagreement.