Championship+1 next season

[Maximus Decimus]

a. Barrow need a ground and a larger yearly investment from their sugar daddy. i.e. Millions of pounds.

b. Halifax need a sugar daddy i.e. someone with a few million pounds to lavish on them.

When was the last post that you didn't mention the words 'sugar daddy?'

This post is the usual nonsense and still people don't quite get that's it's not all about on the pitch any more. If it was we would have a totally different situation. Widnes have played by the rules and are far ahead in all aspects except for on the pitch.

We saved our worst performance in over 4 years for yesterday. That's no reason to say we should suddenly be in Super League.

[eddo]

The original thread has now been bypassed and moved on again to who decides what ? Very unsatisfactory.

Best teams always . All i asked was to how the shoe ins Widnes +Toulouse will perform next season , Toulouse free of relegation have only gone through the motions ,relegated last year this not much. This current crop of Widnes players dont have a chance of super league contracts.

Are virtually 40 games in that league going to be dead rubbers. How good is that ?

[Maximus Decimus]

The original thread has now been bypassed and moved on again to who decides what ? Very unsatisfactory.

Best teams always . All i asked was to how the shoe ins Widnes +Toulouse will perform next season , Toulouse free of relegation have only gone through the motions ,relegated last year this not much. This current crop of Widnes players dont have a chance of super league contracts.

Are virtually 40 games in that league going to be dead rubbers. How good is that ?

It's nonsense that's why.

Toulouse aren't coming up, I'll guarantee you of that. If Widnes get the decision in March then players will be playing for Super League contracts. We have been playing many youngsters throughout the last year, so there will probably be quite a lot getting SL contracts and certainly playing for them. Aside from that the prospect of SL might mean that Widnes find recruitment easier in this off season.

If you look at the season in that way, far more than 40 games are dead rubbers. How about all those games that involve clubs that aren't going to get relegated but aren't in danger of threatening the playoffs?

[shrek]

What would happen if a team was awarded a licence next year but subsequently ended up in the relegation spots, would the 3rd bottom team be relegated?

Not suggesting for one second Widnes would be, its just one of those hypothetical what ifs that isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

[Maximus Decimus]

What would happen if a team was awarded a licence next year but subsequently ended up in the relegation spots, would the 3rd bottom team be relegated?

Not suggesting for one second Widnes would be, its just one of those hypothetical what ifs that isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

I suspect they would a la Toulouse and Leigh last year.

[eddo]

Cheers Shrek that was my original point . Its possible for a team{s} to be relegated from positions above . The red hall ineptitude will unravel itself next march, not a knock on Widnes just the broad picture.

[Big Picture]

Best team top at the end of season are champions in all creditable frontline sports . If i won a euro millions rollover i could buy and build a tidy stadium and apply for a super league position having ticked a box. Absolute nonsense but thats the rl view and must look very strange to the outside sporting world. Promoting teams who lie 5/7th ?

Not in the US they aren't, every pro league in every sport there uses playoffs to crown their champions. Ditto for Canada, Australia and New Zealand. In the English-speaking world, only the UK clings to this notion of giving a championship to the team that finishes first after the regular season. You seem to be unaware that RL used playoffs to determine the championship for decades back there was only one division.

[The Parksider]

When was the last post that you didn't mention the words 'sugar daddy?'

This post is the usual nonsense and still people don't quite get that's it's not all about on the pitch any more. If it was we would have a totally different situation. Widnes have played by the rules and are far ahead in all aspects except for on the pitch.

No need to get annoyed because a phrase repeats, especially as many phrases will repeat in many people's posts, and many people repeat all sorts of things.

I agree it's not all about on the pitch, but it is all about money up to a point. You need it for the ground and you need it for the players, and you need it for the business. The money that paid for the Stadium at Widnes will be followed by the money that will pay for the players. Any money the club are short will be paid for by the "Sugar daddy".

That's not having a go, it's just pointing out that to compete in Superleague money is needed. Where clubs have that money they can compete. The level of money is set higher than many clubs can afford, probably because they feel they have to stop the GP taking players etc.

You see at Harlequins and Wakefield only this week appeals for "new investors" sugar daddies by any other name. They can't compete because they are short of erm....Money.

The "point" beyond which money currently won't take you is if a club gets a "sugar daddy" but chooses a project in an unviable area for development or bang next to an SL club. If Cliff wins the lottery big time will he be allowed to build a ground and take Bramley to SL, will Blackpool be allowed in SL. I don't think so so it's not all about money.

Widnes are of course welcomed with open arms as are HKR because they can compete, albeit not neccessarily from the sort of geographical position that the SL plans and RFL masters originally would have wanted. Had there been a queue of clubs with money and grounds where would Widnes and HKR be with their geographical disadvantage.

If you are looking for the "usual nonsense" then try looking at all the suggestions about how a club can build in the NL's. The NL's are actually a bit of a graveyard for any budding professional club. There's a nonsense for starters. Clubs that "go forward" in the NL's tend to do it because they have the money to invest to go forward. Opening an academy or creating a marketing department costs erm....Money.

Another nonsense that repeats more than the "sugar daddies" is the championing of Halifax and Leigh for SL. These clubs have a rcord of not being able to hack SL in the past and new grounds or not they won't hack it in the future. But would they hack it if Mr. O'Connor had gone there? I suspect so. Money/sugar daddy is what would make these clubs.

At the current level of money you need to compete in SL we have possibly three clubs who can do that from their normal business turnover. The other 11 places are in reality open to clubs who have enough money to make up the salary cap shortfall or where they don't have it, afford a ground. I don't mind anyone dreaming of Superleague, but it is a fact that you can't compete in Superleague without having someone to provide the additional investment. As for "building in the NL's" that's not really true. Getting into SL will make Widnes. hanging around NL would break them.

Good luck next year in Superleague, another competetive club will be great for the competition and of course Superleague may be able to look forward to Salford and Wakefield perhaps getting the grounds and finances (maybe a better word than "money") to deepen the competition just like Widnes.

[Bomb Jack]

Good luck next year in Superleague

I take it you mean the year after ?

Next year we are still in the Championship.

[RP London]

The original thread has now been bypassed and moved on again to who decides what ? Very unsatisfactory.

Best teams always . All i asked was to how the shoe ins Widnes +Toulouse will perform next season , Toulouse free of relegation have only gone through the motions ,relegated last year this not much. This current crop of Widnes players dont have a chance of super league contracts.

Are virtually 40 games in that league going to be dead rubbers. How good is that ?

i answered it but you have ignored it.. c'est la vie..

oh and have you watched tolouse.. they arent "going thourgh the motions" they just arent as good as the other teams..

Widnes team this year has been poor i am sure they would agree and as such they are releasing players and building on the youth who are fighting for places next year for the super league if they get in.

[RP London]

Cheers Shrek that was my original point . Its possible for a team{s} to be relegated from positions above . The red hall ineptitude will unravel itself next march, not a knock on Widnes just the broad picture.

yes in theory widnes could be (tolouse hasnt got a liscence yet and need to be invited to apply) but it is unlikely and it is unimportant becuase the whole franchising set up is about the club not the first team. this announcment on Widnes/Halifax whoever will be made in march so all teams will know that if widnes finnish second to bottom they better not finish 3rd from bottomor they are down.. the teams will know this from the start.. this becomes then a non issue for who gets relegated and goal posts changing etc.. dont see this being an issue or any ineptitude the fact they are making the announcment earlier shows actually IMO a good sense of making sure there is a level playing field and clubs know the situation and the implications of it rather than ineptitude.

[a.n Other]

Halifax and Leigh for SL. These clubs have a rcord of not being able to hack SL in the past

Apart from the seasons When Fax did compete. At that time they didnt have a "sugar daddy" either. Fax have a record of not being able to "hack" it in one season, the one where we were rightly relegated.

[shrek]

yes in theory widnes could be (tolouse hasnt got a liscence yet and need to be invited to apply) but it is unlikely and it is unimportant becuase the whole franchising set up is about the club not the first team. this announcment on Widnes/Halifax whoever will be made in march so all teams will know that if widnes finnish second to bottom they better not finish 3rd from bottomor they are down.. the teams will know this from the start.. this becomes then a non issue for who gets relegated and goal posts changing etc.. dont see this being an issue or any ineptitude the fact they are making the announcment earlier shows actually IMO a good sense of making sure there is a level playing field and clubs know the situation and the implications of it rather than ineptitude.

Please god its not Leigh though or TRL will suffer a meltdown, two pet hates colliding into one for one of our posters!!!

[no13benny]

Toasted with a little onion or just butties?

Ended up having ham sandwiches instead - who saw that coming? Guess I'm not as predictable as this thread after all.

[davo99]

Ended up having ham sandwiches instead - who saw that coming? Guess I'm not as predictable as this thread after all.

Chicken and red onion myself

[bird]

stiil prefer cheese myself

[bowes]

What would happen if a team was awarded a licence next year but subsequently ended up in the relegation spots, would the 3rd bottom team be relegated?

Not suggesting for one second Widnes would be, its just one of those hypothetical what ifs that isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

It's expected there will be Championship licensing from 2012 so not necessarily anyone

[shrek]

It's expected there will be Championship licensing from 2012 so not necessarily anyone

Can't see that playing out well, we're swamped on here that licensing is the work of the devil, can't see Championship clubs voting for it won't there fans be up in arms? (tongue in cheek font required!)

[no13benny]

Chicken and red onion myself

stiil prefer cheese myself

Well today's a new day, so who knows what I may go for!

[RP London]

Please god its not Leigh though or TRL will suffer a meltdown, two pet hates colliding into one for one of our posters!!!

we'd be ok i think he would explode before he got near the keyboard

[mick wilson]

PARKSIDER, good post mate.

[The Parksider]

Apart from the seasons When Fax did compete. At that time they didnt have a "sugar daddy" either. Fax have a record of not being able to "hack" it in one season, the one where we were rightly relegated.

Halifax indeed did compete in the early years. so did Sheffield Eagles and Oldham went well for a couple of seasons. London started top four for the first two seasons, salford and Gateshead got sixth in the early years and castleford were a force.

Like Halifax these clubs competed at a time when they too did not have sugar daddies putting a lot of money in, but in time all these clubs not just Halifax could not hack it anymore in Superleague, and all either dropped out or started to struggle.

Why?

The financial burden became too much, these seven clubs along with Wakefield and Leigh would all have/do have, serious problems competing in Superleague today without a sugar daddy.

Sure London (serious money probs) Wakefield (No investor desperately searching for one) Salford (propped up by Mr. Wilkinson) Castleford (favourites to drop out of SL) are in Superleague now, but they are in the uncompetetive bottom six.

And here's the point - every one of these clubs SL futures has seriously been in doubt in recent years.

A couple of Featherstone fans suggested if Wakefield could do it they could. But the question for them, Halifax, leigh and any NL club is do what??

Struggle annually before the money problems lead to you selling off your ground and begging for investors, and the end up bookies and TRL fans favourites to be booted out. That#s where Wakey have finally gone.

With the utmost respect that's something Leigh, Fev and Halifax can emulate. As for Halifax they pretty much went bust in SL eventually. Didn't they then go bust in the NL's???????

[The Parksider]

PARKSIDER, good post mate.

That's kind of you! It's just a simple fact that if you can't break even on your crowds in Superleague you need a sugar daddy to prop you up.

if you don't get a sugar daddy then you will sink.

Big crowds exist at Leeds, Wigan, Hull and Saints.

The rest of the top eight are serious sugar daddy clubs - Hudgell, Moss, Moran and Davey.

Outside of that there's Mr. Wilkinson RLFC and Mr. Hughes RLFC with club income so far away from a competetive level they need their sugar daddies just to stay afloat.

That leaves Castleford, Bradford and Wakefield.

These are the three clubs along the M62 that have no sugar daddy. Two of these are at the point of being kicked out, The third has dropped like a stone.

Again I'm not having a go but all this talk about having formed an academy, or got a marketing department together, or built a new stand, or even got a new ground (Leigh, Fax) is fine, and of course it meets the thrust of the franchising policy.

But we can't condemn the franchising policy as a sham and a vehicle for the RFL to railroad through who they want in (Crusaders) and out, and then pretend all is well and good because NL clubs are following it and successfully "building" for SL in the future.

Nobody is successfully building anything for the future in the NL's. With respect Mr. O'Connor is a sugar daddy and thank the lord for him and thank the lord Widnes will come in and try to shake up Wigan, Saints and Wire with Salford joining in in a couple of years. It will be highly exciting for that clutch of five cubs in traditional central west Lancashire (when I went to visit Barton I noted the warrington signpost on the road outside the stadium site), and fans looking on. I fear for Yorkshire SL clubs

So the ONLY question at Barrow is just how much is Mr. Johnson prepared to back Barrow to. Any idea??

[RP London]

Halifax indeed did compete in the early years. so did Sheffield Eagles and Oldham went well for a couple of seasons. London started top four for the first two seasons, salford and Gateshead got sixth in the early years and castleford were a force.

Like Halifax these clubs competed at a time when they too did not have sugar daddies putting a lot of money in, but in time all these clubs not just Halifax could not hack it anymore in Superleague, and all either dropped out or started to struggle.

Why?

The financial burden became too much, these seven clubs along with Wakefield and Leigh would all have/do have, serious problems competing in Superleague today without a sugar daddy.

Sure London (serious money probs) Wakefield (No investor desperately searching for one) Salford (propped up by Mr. Wilkinson) Castleford (favourites to drop out of SL) are in Superleague now, but they are in the uncompetetive bottom six.

And here's the point - every one of these clubs SL futures has seriously been in doubt in recent years.

A couple of Featherstone fans suggested if Wakefield could do it they could. But the question for them, Halifax, leigh and any NL club is do what??

Struggle annually before the money problems lead to you selling off your ground and begging for investors, and the end up bookies and TRL fans favourites to be booted out. That#s where Wakey have finally gone.

With the utmost respect that's something Leigh, Fev and Halifax can emulate. As for Halifax they pretty much went bust in SL eventually. Didn't they then go bust in the NL's???????

IIRC Eagles werent doing that badly (the crowd averages printed in RLW this week were quite interesting) until the owner (not really a sugar daddy but he had a bit of cash) was offered silly money for merging with Huddersfield.

[The Parksider]

IIRC Eagles werent doing that badly (the crowd averages printed in RLW this week were quite interesting) until the owner (not really a sugar daddy but he had a bit of cash) was offered silly money for merging with Huddersfield.

The Eagles in Superleague recorded finishes of 7th, 8th, 8th and 10th in Superleague before conceding that they had difficulty in competing against a backdrop of gates dropping from 4,500 to 3,600 by 2000. I don't know much about the hideous merger, but someone may have got their money back that they'd invested in Eagles.

I do know that Hetherington jumped ship from his pet project and went on to headingley where he steered the club to four Superleague wins. I think he is "astute", and knew where the money was, rather than some of the names he's called on here

As for the Eagles I am delighted that they are now playing out of Bramall Lane.

The massive problem RL has in professional expansion is that areas outside the "heartlands" tend to throw up few if any sugar daddies (this is the right term - look it up in the dictionary - "Elderly man who lavishes gifts on Rugby League clubs") . I was in sheffield this week and was told about Wednesdays owner who had shelled out Millions only to end up in the second division with