Football

[Gerrumonside ref]

2 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

You ever been? I went to a Ross county Vs Hibs game on an Edinburgh visit once....that was volatile enough 

No, but I know a Celtic season ticket holder and I’ve experienced both their travelling supports before.

There’s a lot of sectarian hatred.

Not sure what will ever change.

[HawkMan]

Everton fans new song;

"Always look on the Brighton side of life,  heigh ho heigh ho, we're going down"

[The Hallucinating Goose]

1 hour ago, HawkMan said:

Everton fans new song;

"Always look on the Brighton side of life,  heigh ho heigh ho, we're going down"

Amazing how quickly football changes isn't it? For years Everton were a stable, top half Premier League side always pushing for Europe. Now they are year on year flirting with relegation while Fulham, Brentford and Brighton push for Europe. Great season so far! 

[HawkMan]

27 minutes ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Amazing how quickly football changes isn't it? For years Everton were a stable, top half Premier League side always pushing for Europe. Now they are year on year flirting with relegation while Fulham, Brentford and Brighton push for Europe. Great season so far! 

Agreed,  I don't want to get all "serious ", but fans love it, the media does too, who'll go down , who'll come up? Do or die relegation battles. IMG want to remove that from RL, to er...grow the game...er..good luck with that.

[hw88]

7 hours ago, HawkMan said:

Agreed,  I don't want to get all "serious ", but fans love it, the media does too, who'll go down , who'll come up? Do or die relegation battles. IMG want to remove that from RL, to er...grow the game...er..good luck with that.

Sadly they will probably get their way.

[JonM]

On 04/01/2023 at 09:40, HawkMan said:

Everton fans new song;

"Always look on the Brighton side of life,  heigh ho heigh ho, we're going down"

Probably an old joke, but one of my Everton supporting acquaintances posted on facebook that he had left at full time, to avoid the traffic.

[Tommygilf]

On 03/01/2023 at 01:22, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Watched the old firm game on Sky ....just out of boredom 

Wow.....some atmosphere they create in Glasgow

Its a special game, everything that is good and everything that is bad about Scottish football crystallised.

The atmosphere is electric, very few if any games in England come close. Add the sectarianism in (which has almost become worse in the past 20 years as the Old Firm is now the primary outlet) and you've got a really crazy environment.

Its glory days as a clash between 2 of the top drawer teams in Europe is over, but as an event it is up there with the best of them. 

[Tommygilf]

On 04/01/2023 at 12:00, HawkMan said:

Agreed,  I don't want to get all "serious ", but fans love it, the media does too, who'll go down , who'll come up? Do or die relegation battles. IMG want to remove that from RL, to er...grow the game...er..good luck with that.

The Premier League can afford to lose an Everton, a West Ham, or a Leeds, they'll be replaced by a Forest, a Derby, or a Wolves etc. They can also afford to throw £150 million or so at them in parachute payments and drop them into what is by some estimates the 6th richest league in Europe. 

RL's comparative situation couldn't be further away. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Its a special game, everything that is good and everything that is bad about Scottish football crystallised.

The atmosphere is electric, very few if any games in England come close. Add the sectarianism in (which has almost become worse in the past 20 years as the Old Firm is now the primary outlet) and you've got a really crazy environment.

Its glory days as a clash between 2 of the top drawer teams in Europe is over, but as an event it is up there with the best of them. 

Yes it come across electric on SKY 

Don't think I'll ever go to one!

 

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Yes it come across electric on SKY 

Don't think I'll ever go to one!

Unless you're in corporate now or know a ST holder who will lend you their seat I doubt you'd get a ticket!

Being the history buff with family on both sides of the peace line I enjoy at least that some aspects of history are in the present with the songs.

Its disappointing that the away capacities have been shrunken in recent years (by both clubs). It used to be a full stand to the away team for the Old Firm, now its less than 1000 tickets. Those were some atmospheres!

[HawkMan]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

The Premier League can afford to lose an Everton, a West Ham, or a Leeds, they'll be replaced by a Forest, a Derby, or a Wolves etc. They can also afford to throw £150 million or so at them in parachute payments and drop them into what is by some estimates the 6th richest league in Europe. 

RL's comparative situation couldn't be further away. 

But fans are fans whatever sport,  love meaningful games,  living the dream etc.  If SL becomes a closed shop ,more or less, or Cat A teams cannot get relegated  expect fans to drift away. Frank Lampard would love that system to be in place.

Interviewer " So Frank , relegation trouble looming, a big worry?"

Frank " gawd bless you no, category A we are cushty, as an impartial ex Chelsea man, have you seen Fulham's stadium,  ramshackle, Category B ha ha ,they may be 7th but going down going down. We're minted at Everton , selling our best players ,don't matter what happens on the pitch, staying up, lovely jubbly"

Edited January 5, 2023 by HawkMan

[Tommygilf]

Just now, HawkMan said:

But fans are fans whatever sport,  love meaningful games,  living the dream etc.  If SL becomes a closed shop ,more or less, or Cat A teams cannot get relegated  expect fans to drift away. Frank Lampard would live that system to be in place.

Interviewer " So Frank , relegation trouble looming, a big worry?"

Frank " gawd bless you no, category A we are cushty, as an impartial ex Chelsea man, have you seen Fulham's stadium,  ramshackle, Category B ha ha ,they may be 7th but going down going down. We're minted at Everton , selling our best players ,don't matter what happens on the pitch, staying up, lovely jubbly"

The main flaw with the Premier League is that winning is essentially up to 3 or so clubs out of 6 (now 7) each season. Partly that is rectified by having 7 spots open for European qualification. Relegation provides some interest for the rest but having first hand experience I can confirm it is not enjoyable at all and a comfortable finish in 9th is better than any relegation scrap season. 

The Premier League would get rid of relegation for its top clubs tomorrow if it meant clubs dropping into, and being replaced by teams from the equivalent of the Vanarama National League North. That is the scale of difference at play here.

[HawkMan]

21 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The main flaw with the Premier League is that winning is essentially up to 3 or so clubs out of 6 (now 7) each season. Partly that is rectified by having 7 spots open for European qualification. Relegation provides some interest for the rest but having first hand experience I can confirm it is not enjoyable at all and a comfortable finish in 9th is better than any relegation scrap season. 

The Premier League would get rid of relegation for its top clubs tomorrow if it meant clubs dropping into, and being replaced by teams from the equivalent of the Vanarama National League North. That is the scale of difference at play here.

Relegation may be not much fun for fans of teams involved,  but for the narrative of the league it's tremendous. Media interest is what's it's all about.

I fully understand Licensing may be the option best for RL, so it should be done completely or not at all,, not some half cocked mishmash.

Either totally closed,  starting in say 2025 with top 12 or 14 as decided by IMG  , the rest  told if they shape up and the game expands and can afford more, then the door is open, or keep relegation potentially for anyone. Some getting exemption and others going down even if they do well on the pitch is a recipe for stagnation.

 

BTW you say Premier is flawed as only 3 out of 6 can win it?

Super League winners-4 Leeds, Wigan, Bradford and St Helen's 

Premier League- 7 Man City Man Utd,  Liverpool, Arsenal,  Leicester, Blackburn and Chelsea 

Edited January 5, 2023 by HawkMan

[Tommygilf]

18 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Relegation may be not much fun for fans of teams involved,  but for the narrative of the league it's tremendous. Media interest is what's it's all about.

I fully understand Licensing may be the option best for RL, so it should be done completely or not at all,, not some half cocked mishmash.

Either totally closed,  starting in say 2025 with top 12 or 14 as decided by IMG  , the rest  told if they shape up and the game expands and can afford more, then the door is open, or keep relegation potentially for anyone. Some getting exemption and others going down even if they do well on the pitch is a recipe for stagnation.

 

BTW you say Premier is flawed as only 3 out of 6 can win it?

Super League winners-4 Leeds, Wigan, Bradford and St Helen's 

Premier League- 7 Man City Man Utd,  Liverpool, Arsenal,  Leicester, Blackburn and Chelsea 

Media interest in the premier league, when you look at the broad sweep, is still generally mostly about Man United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea. The minor issues and goings on at those clubs are treated as bigger stories than the relegation travails of Leeds, Everton, Southampton, Wolves etc.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that RL thinking it can be like football is at the heart of the majority of the major problems the game faces currently.

On the Premier League, the exception that proves the rule no? They have more big clubs. 

[HawkMan]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Media interest in the premier league, when you look at the broad sweep, is still generally mostly about Man United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea. 

Man City and Tottenham fans may be a bit miffed at that assessment.

[gingerjon]

29 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Media interest in the premier league, when you look at the broad sweep, is still generally mostly about Man United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea. The minor issues and goings on at those clubs are treated as bigger stories than the relegation travails of Leeds, Everton, Southampton, Wolves etc.

Indeed. Relegation may, in some seasons, become a story that 'breaks out' but in a lot of years it pretty much passes most people by. The expected teams struggle and then go down with a week of the season left, that sort of thing.

They've got promotion and relegation in the UEFA Nations League - proving that it's not a magic bullet to make a competition interesting.

[Tommygilf]

43 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Man City and Tottenham fans may be a bit miffed at that assessment.

All 12 of them? Relatively. Man City may have bought the league but their lifelong fans know they aren't a massive club with huge global interest. Tottenham fans even more so (granted South Korea love Son).

[HawkMan]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

All 12 of them? Relatively. Man City may have bought the league but their lifelong fans know they aren't a massive club with huge global interest. Tottenham fans even more so (granted South Korea love Son).

Hmm,  Tottenham have 427 official fan clubs worldwide.

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/fans/supporters-clubs/welcome/

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by HawkMan

[The Hallucinating Goose]

Beverley Town 3-0 Shirebrook

Att: 231

Bev have won 4 on the bounce now and moved up to 10th in the table. Shirebrook are the poorest team I've seen so far this year; absolutely non existent defensive line, ball over the top from our own defence so easy to break through it everytime. No pace and no strength from any Shirebrook player. We took all our starting strikers off just after halftime and still managed to score two more. Don't know how it was only 3 quite frankly. 

[JohnM]

On 05/01/2023 at 16:45, Tommygilf said:

All 12 of them? Relatively. Man City may have bought the league but their lifelong fans know they aren't a massive club with huge global interest. Tottenham fans even more so (granted South Korea love Son).

Hmmmm...also. Trafford United.   Vs https://www.cityfootballgroup.com/our-clubs/

I hear also that Trafford United are up for sale but no takers as no one can afford to bring the stadium into the 20th century, never mind the 21st century.

Edited January 8, 2023 by JohnM

[hw88]

On 05/01/2023 at 16:45, Tommygilf said:

All 12 of them? Relatively. Man City may have bought the league but their lifelong fans know they aren't a massive club with huge global interest. Tottenham fans even more so (granted South Korea love Son).

Same with Chelsea,

In a sense all league titles are 'bought' in that the teams with the most cash usually buy the best players and so win the league. In the past though it wasn't so obvious as the best players were spread around and not sat warming the bench as they are these days.

There are a few exceptions - Nottingham Forest and Derby County in the 1970s come to mind. They did have a truely great manager though.

[Gerrumonside ref]

7 minutes ago, hw88 said:

Same with Chelsea,

In a sense all league titles are 'bought' in that the teams with the most cash usually buy the best players and so win the league. In the past though it wasn't so obvious as the best players were spread around and not sat warming the bench as they are these days.

There are a few exceptions - Nottingham Forest and Derby County in the 1970s come to mind. They did have a truely great manager though.

Not sure that Forest didn’t spend a fair bit themselves (relative to the time) to get themselves in that position tbh.

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, hw88 said:

Same with Chelsea,

In a sense all league titles are 'bought' in that the teams with the most cash usually buy the best players and so win the league. In the past though it wasn't so obvious as the best players were spread around and not sat warming the bench as they are these days.

There are a few exceptions - Nottingham Forest and Derby County in the 1970s come to mind. They did have a truely great manager though.

I agree that Chelsea and subsequently Man City, and arguably Newcastle going forward, have changed the game regarding the levels of money in the English top flight however.

[hw88]

9 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Not sure that Forest didn’t spend a fair bit themselves (relative to the time) to get themselves in that position tbh.

They bought good players but not really outstanding ones and they didn't pay over the odds for them like they do today - Withe, Robertson, McGovern, etc. Clough then took those players and coached/made them into European Champions.

Today's top managers only succeed because they have millions to spend. Give Guardiola Accrington's squad, let's see how he gets on then!

[Gerrumonside ref]

10 minutes ago, hw88 said:

They bought good players but not really outstanding ones and they didn't pay over the odds for them like they do today - Withe, Robertson, McGovern, etc. Clough then took those players and coached/made them into European Champions.

Today's top managers only succeed because they have millions to spend. Give Guardiola Accrington's squad, let's see how he gets on then!

They spent a lot on Trevor Francis and I think the level of investment to get promoted and then win the league wasn’t insubstantial though.

My own view on Brian Clough is he was a great man-manager, motivator and self-publicist!

His assistant Peter Taylor should get as much of the plaudits for the actual coaching, tactics and the identification of key players.  I believe this is borne out by the success they had together at other clubs and not when apart.

This is no slight on Clough as all the great managers like Busby, Shankly, Paisley and Ferguson relied on their coaching teams and he was no different.