Football

[MattSantos]

1 hour ago, HawkMan said:

On the Gabrielle Marcotti and Julien Laurens podcast, which btw can be accessed by a sky box if you have BT sport, this was discussed. 

The big La liga and serie A clubs are desperate,  and the old saying if you can't beat them join them doesn't apply because they can't join the EPL, or beat it financially,  so the Super league was an idea to derail the Premier League,  simply that.

Why was 6 English teams invited , more than any other big league? Because the likes of Madrid,  Juve etc hoped that they would get big financial rewards for the idea itself but more importantly divert tv monies away from the EPL.

As the comments on the BBC HYS page say, the other leagues need to improve their product to compete.

Gab Marcotti points out that as far as FFP goes, UEFA are investigating a number of clubs , none of them Premier league clubs. The EPL has its money from fair means, ie selling their product and being popular the globe over. Mention of cycles and once again the Spanish or Italian leagues may be top dog as previously may be wrong this time. The EPL seems unstoppable and a situation whereby the relationship between the Premier League and the rest is like today's situation between the NBA and the rest of basketball is a distinct possibility, hence the big Continental clubs are really panicking.

I take umbridge with one point in particular, "the Super league was an idea to derail the Premier League,  simply that"

It wasn't. As you allude to, it was to make money and monopolise those income streams.

Commentary on other European clubs panicking is also purely monetary. On the pitch, English clubs have won 2 of the last 10 Champions Leagues? and 5 this century? Only 3/4 UEFA cups this century?

Lastly, does the EPL have money from fair means? Russian money, leveraged money, Middle Eastern money...

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, MattSantos said:

That's not what you said though, by saying that the ESL failed because it already existed in England doesn't make sense. If that was the case, why would the clubs want to join (and they still do)? 

The root cause of the failure was a furious backlash from the fans and subsequently politicians across Europe. It would have been interesting if they wouldn't have granted the 12/14 clubs entry in perpetuity and expanded/reformatted the Champions League instead. Too greedy, too early. 

I went to one of those protests, told Liverpool exactly what we thought of them!

The main reason is that the (top) Premier League clubs do not need the other European giants to make an absolute monster amount of money. They were the last in, and the first out of the ESL, because ultimately they were half of it - what is the point of that?

You have clubs like Leeds, Wolves, Villa and Leicester who have more financial clout that Serie A champions and most champions league clubs - and they aren't even the big 6! This is what worries most European leagues and their senior clubs above all else. Yet these are also leagues which have become dominated by 1 or maybe 2 or 3 clubs because of their own stupidity.

[HawkMan]

11 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

 

Commentary on other European clubs panicking is also purely monetary. On the pitch, English clubs have won 2 of the last 10 Champions Leagues? and 5 this century? Only 3/4 UEFA cups this century?

Lastly, does the EPL have money from fair means? Russian money, leveraged money, Middle Eastern money...

Yes, as Laurens said on the podcast, only if Premier league clubs start to win everything every year will UEFA do something.

As for fairly gained money, I meant broadcast deals here and abroad,  which media giants pay ,for profit for themselves of course through subscriptions. La liga, serie A et al are struggling to get monies in, interest globally in their product is falling.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, HawkMan said:

On the Gabrielle Marcotti and Julien Laurens podcast, which btw can be accessed by a sky box if you have BT sport, this was discussed. 

The big La liga and serie A clubs are desperate,  and the old saying if you can't beat them join them doesn't apply because they can't join the EPL, or beat it financially,  so the Super league was an idea to derail the Premier League,  simply that.

Why was 6 English teams invited , more than any other big league? Because the likes of Madrid,  Juve etc hoped that they would get big financial rewards for the idea itself but more importantly divert tv monies away from the EPL.

As the comments on the BBC HYS page say, the other leagues need to improve their product to compete.

Gab Marcotti points out that as far as FFP goes, UEFA are investigating a number of clubs , none of them Premier league clubs. The EPL has its money from fair means, ie selling their product and being popular the globe over. Mention of cycles and once again the Spanish or Italian leagues may be top dog as previously may be wrong this time. The EPL seems unstoppable and a situation whereby the relationship between the Premier League and the rest is like today's situation between the NBA and the rest of basketball is a distinct possibility, hence the big Continental clubs are really panicking.

I agree with a lot of that. As I put in an earlier post, its almost not the big 6 that the European teams and Leagues are worried about, but the fact that the likes of Villa, Leeds, West Ham, Everton, Leicester can offer transfers and wages in excess of what 95% of the rest of European football can. You hear it everytime a player signs for X club how "exciting it is to play in the premier league",  its just not the same with La Liga, or Serie A, or the Bundesliga. 

The Championship is already within the top 5 or 6 leagues in Europe financially, at what point does that competition overtake another big league? Because as you say, it feels like its coming.

The problem with all this is that it is through critical financial and commercial mismanagement that has led to this point. Germany is almost anti-competition which has turned the once mighty Bundesliga (and it still produces arguably the best all round footballers in the world), into a one horse race. La Liga's big 3 won't split their TV rights money, and so their league is dire around them. Serie A is a shadow of its former glory. Ligue 1 is only interesting if PSG have a relatively bad season, despite producing a huge amount of talent in France over the past 30 years. Holland, Scotland, Russia, Portugal and the other smaller leagues haven't been able to keep up but at least have the size of their competition as a defence.

[MattSantos]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I agree with a lot of that. As I put in an earlier post, its almost not the big 6 that the European teams and Leagues are worried about, but the fact that the likes of Villa, Leeds, West Ham, Everton, Leicester can offer transfers and wages in excess of what 95% of the rest of European football can. You hear it everytime a player signs for X club how "exciting it is to play in the premier league",  its just not the same with La Liga, or Serie A, or the Bundesliga. 

The Championship is already within the top 5 or 6 leagues in Europe financially, at what point does that competition overtake another big league? Because as you say, it feels like its coming.

The problem with all this is that it is through critical financial and commercial mismanagement that has led to this point. Germany is almost anti-competition which has turned the once mighty Bundesliga (and it still produces arguably the best all round footballers in the world), into a one horse race. La Liga's big 3 won't split their TV rights money, and so their league is dire around them. Serie A is a shadow of its former glory. Ligue 1 is only interesting if PSG have a relatively bad season, despite producing a huge amount of talent in France over the past 30 years. Holland, Scotland, Russia, Portugal and the other smaller leagues haven't been able to keep up but at least have the size of their competition as a defence.

Lots of fair points.

I have a fair few mates who work in football financing, primarily as brokers for sponsorship, rights etc. The feedback is that dealing with the European clubs in particular is almost not worth it, it's like they don't want sponsorship...

Regarding the championship, it depends on what you mean when you say 'financially'. Taking into account revenue etc, i think they're about 10th. Prem, La Liga, Serie A, Lique 1, Bundesliga, Prim Liga (Portugal), & Holland in Europe. Brasil League 1 and MLS will be worth more, too. Esp with MLS exploring new TV deals wi Apple et al. China as well, but that's really iffy...in a lot of ways. 

The once mighty Bundesliga? Dont make me laugh, have a team other than Bryan Munich won it more than 6/7 times? other than Dortmund during that spell, they've won it nearly every year for 25 years i bet!

Portugal - Only 3 clubs have ever won it? Maybe Boavista?

France & Spain - What a mess. Italy - woof.

I'm rambling.

 

[gingerjon]

The Super League was a power grab by some clubs over UEFA. Once they essentially got what they wanted there wasn’t much need to continue.

[MattSantos]

11 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

The Super League was a power grab by some clubs over UEFA. Once they essentially got what they wanted there wasn’t much need to continue.

But yet they still are.. Madrid, Barca and Juve are taking EUFA to court..

Edited February 3, 2023 by MattSantos

[gingerjon]

11 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

But yet they still are.. Madrid, Barca and Juve are taking EUFA to court..

Three very well run clubs there. 

[Gerrumonside ref]

Six big games coming up for Everton in their battle against the drop - you’d think their only chance is Goodison Park.

4 of those 6 are at home: Arsenal, Leeds, Villa and Brentford

They need to get some wins there because after that their run in is tough.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[The Hallucinating Goose]

2 hours ago, MattSantos said:

The once mighty Bundesliga? Dont make me laugh, have a team other than Bryan Munich won it more than 6/7 times? other than Dortmund during that spell, they've won it nearly every year for 25 years i bet!

Portugal - Only 3 clubs have ever won it? Maybe Boavista?

Six teams have won the Bundesliga in the past 25 years. You picked a good time period actually because 25 years ago, in 1998, Kaiserslauturn won the league. We've also seen Bayern, Werder Bremen, Dortmund, Wolfsburg and Stuttgart crowned champions since then. Granted Bayern have won the last 10 in a row and will probably win it this year as well. 

And there's been five champions of Portugal. The big three with Benfica, Porto and Sporting, and a championship each for Belenenses and indeed Boavista. 

[hw88]

3 hours ago, MattSantos said:

Lots of fair points.

I have a fair few mates who work in football financing, primarily as brokers for sponsorship, rights etc. The feedback is that dealing with the European clubs in particular is almost not worth it, it's like they don't want sponsorship...

Regarding the championship, it depends on what you mean when you say 'financially'. Taking into account revenue etc, i think they're about 10th. Prem, La Liga, Serie A, Lique 1, Bundesliga, Prim Liga (Portugal), & Holland in Europe. Brasil League 1 and MLS will be worth more, too. Esp with MLS exploring new TV deals wi Apple et al. China as well, but that's really iffy...in a lot of ways. 

The once mighty Bundesliga? Dont make me laugh, have a team other than Bryan Munich won it more than 6/7 times? other than Dortmund during that spell, they've won it nearly every year for 25 years i bet!

Portugal - Only 3 clubs have ever won it? Maybe Boavista?

France & Spain - What a mess. Italy - woof.

I'm rambling.

 

Bayern have won the Bundesliga 31 times - next nearest is Dortmund with 5. Ironically before the existence of the Bundesliga German titles were widely distributed amongst the clubs.

Portugal - 5 winners - the big 3 plus Belenenses and Boavista (1 apiece)

France have never been a big league with hardly any European wins or finalists.

[The Hallucinating Goose]

42 minutes ago, hw88 said:

Bayern have won the Bundesliga 31 times - next nearest is Dortmund with 5. Ironically before the existence of the Bundesliga German titles were widely distributed amongst the clubs.

Portugal - 5 winners - the big 3 plus Belenenses and Boavista (1 apiece)

France have never been a big league with hardly any European wins or finalists.

Yeah only 1 league title for Bayern before Bundesliga and then you get teams such as Nuremburg who've won 9 titles but only 1 since the Bundesliga came about and Schalke who've won 7 titles but none in the current era. 

[Niels]

4 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Yeah only 1 league title for Bayern before Bundesliga and then you get teams such as Nuremburg who've won 9 titles but only 1 since the Bundesliga came about and Schalke who've won 7 titles but none in the current era. 

That's very interesting. Schalke haven't won since 1957 I think?

In East Germany BFC Dynamo won 10 titles in a row from 1979 but are now in a regional 4th division. 

I recently bought a book about German football which I am looking forward to reading. 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Niels

[The Hallucinating Goose]

5 hours ago, Niels said:

That's very interesting. Schalke haven't won since 1957 I think?

In East Germany BFC Dynamo won 10 titles in a row from 1979 but are now in a regional 4th division. 

I recently bought a book about German football which I am looking forward to reading. 

 

What's even more interesting is Bayern weren't even runners up in the league before Bundesliga. They had literally just won that one title in 1932 (I think?). 

I've been to see a few teams around Germany. My favourite country in the world after our great land and I've spent a lot of time travelling round it. I've got a friend who lives in Essen as well and he's a bit Schalke fan so I've had the opportunity to go see them a couple of times. 

Let me know if that book has got a big section on East German football and if it has, what the book is. East Geman history fascinates me and I've never read too much about its football. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by The Hallucinating Goose

[Sidi Fidi Gold]

10 hours ago, Niels said:

That's very interesting. Schalke haven't won since 1957 I think?

In East Germany BFC Dynamo won 10 titles in a row from 1979 but are now in a regional 4th division. 

I recently bought a book about German football which I am looking forward to reading. 

 

I think that Dynamo Berlin were run by the Stasi and all the top players in E Germany were pressurised into playing for them, hence, 10 titles in a row.

[hw88]

16 minutes ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said:

I think that Dynamo Berlin were run by the Stasi and all the top players in E Germany were pressurised into playing for them, hence, 10 titles in a row.

Quite correct. Only Jurgen Croy, the East German goalkeeper didn't play for Dynamo. He persuaded the authorities to let him stay at Sachsenring Zwickau because he reckoned he'd get more practice there!!

[Gerrumonside ref]

4 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

What's even more interesting is Bayern weren't even runners up in the league before Bundesliga. They had literally just won that one title in 1932 (I think?). 

I've been to see a few teams around Germany. My favourite country in the world after our great land and I've spent a lot of time travelling round it. I've got a friend who lives in Essen as well and he's a bit Schalke fan so I've had the opportunity to go see them a couple of times. 

Let me know if that book has got a big section on East German football and if it has, what the book is. East Geman history fascinates me and I've never read too much about its football. 

Have you read a football book called ‘Tor!’  (German for ‘Goal!’).  I think you would enjoy it if you can get hold of a copy.

I got very interested as a kid in German football and was lucky enough to be taken to a Hamburg SV vs Karlsruhe SC match in the Bundesliga around 1991 by some German friends.

We stood at Volksparkstadion behind the goal and it finished 2-2 in the end.  I didn’t know at the time, but I’d seen a very youthful Oliver Kahn playing in goal for Karlsruhe SC!  It was a really intense atmosphere even then.

One thing that I took away from German football culture was the idea of ‘friendships’ and ‘twinnings’ with other German clubs and so it was my first real encounter of half and half scarfs that weren’t Liverpool-Celtic or Liverpool-Rangers.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Gerrumonside ref

[hw88]

14 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

Yeah only 1 league title for Bayern before Bundesliga and then you get teams such as Nuremburg who've won 9 titles but only 1 since the Bundesliga came about and Schalke who've won 7 titles but none in the current era. 

The following season they were relegated. The manager sold much of the title winning team and decided to rely on youth. They've never been the same since.

It's interesting to see how they decided which teams would be in the very first Bundesliga in 1963-64. They would only allow one team from each city - hence TSV 1860 Munich pipped Bayern to a place. Also 1 FC Saarbrucken shouldn't have been anywhere near a Bundesliga place but because their chairman/president had 'connections' they were awarded a place - they finished bottom in the inaugral season!

[hw88]

5 hours ago, The Hallucinating Goose said:

What's even more interesting is Bayern weren't even runners up in the league before Bundesliga. They had literally just won that one title in 1932 (I think?). 

I've been to see a few teams around Germany. My favourite country in the world after our great land and I've spent a lot of time travelling round it. I've got a friend who lives in Essen as well and he's a bit Schalke fan so I've had the opportunity to go see them a couple of times. 

Let me know if that book has got a big section on East German football and if it has, what the book is. East Geman history fascinates me and I've never read too much about its football. 

Tell him to stop being a glory hunter and support Rot-Weiss Essen!

East German teams were forever changing their names and location. For instance the original 'big team' in Berlin was Vorwearts, but they started life in Leipzig before being moved. Then in 1971 they were moved again, this time to Frankfurt a/d Oder - presumably to clear the field for Dynamo. There were 2 teams in Leipzig - Chemie and Lokomotive. Confusingly Chemie were called Lokomotive between 1954-63 while Lokomotive were called Rotation. Then in 1963-64 Chemie reverted to their original pre-1954 name (Chemie) while Rotation became SC Leipzig before becoming Lokomotive in 1966-67!!

The record for name changes however is Magdaberg who had 5 different names between 1953 and 1991 - Krupp, Stahl, Motor Mitte, Aufbau and Magdeberg!

[BetweenYellowLines]

Football is pathetic

[DavidM]

2 hours ago, BetweenYellowLines said:

Football is pathetic

Usually . Right now today though its very good indeed 

[BetweenYellowLines]

3 hours ago, DavidM said:

Usually . Right now today though its very good indeed 

Nope. A sport full of fairies.

 

Fairies as in that is what they all look like

Edited February 4, 2023 by BetweenYellowLines

[HawkMan]

3 hours ago, BetweenYellowLines said:

Football is pathetic

Pathetic? Too right!

A global game, millions of fans, over 150 professional leagues,pan- continental club tournaments, a 32 team  world Cup  with close matches, over 2 billion aggregated TV viewers , a top tier in this country with half a dozen clubs with above 50,00 average attendance.

Please God Rugby League never gets that pathetic!!

BTW " fairies" is deeply homophobic. Should report your post but can't be bothered to waste time on you.

Edited February 4, 2023 by HawkMan

[BetweenYellowLines]

2 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Pathetic? Too right!

A global game, millions of fans, over 150 professional leagues,pan- continental club tournaments, a 32 team  world Cup  with close matches, over 2 billion aggregated TV viewers , a top tier in this country with half a dozen clubs with above 50,00 average attendance.

Please God Rugby League never gets that pathetic!!

ALL about money, hypocrisy, corruption, followed by knuckle dragging sexist, racist, homphobic, overcompensating ######
I could care less how many people like it, how much TV time it gets, etc, etc.
If a film wins best oscar doesn't mean I should think it was any good.

[HawkMan]

1 hour ago, DavidM said:

Usually . Right now today though its very good indeed 

Well done Everton and Sean Dyche, an appointment that just might save the toffees.

Jordan and Keown actually talking sense?!

Edited February 4, 2023 by HawkMan