Maximus Decimus Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 2 hours ago, 17 stone giant said: It's only one game. It's a Nations League group game, not a World Cup or European Championship knockout game. If we're not going to try different things during a Nations League game, then when? Well played Greece. You deserved your victory. The difference is that this is like an extended job interview for Carsley. Trying things is one thing but he also needs to impress and this just looked bad. I think he's likely blown it. A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 stone giant Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 7 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said: The difference is that this is like an extended job interview for Carsley. Trying things is one thing but he also needs to impress and this just looked bad. I think he's likely blown it. I'm sorry but I just think that's reactionary nonsense. Are we really going to decide that he's awful and not up to the job, based on one game? I'm not saying he should get the job full time - that will depend also on who else is available and willing to put their hat in the ring (if Guardiola is available, I'm having him as my first choice), when this interim period comes to an end - but to write Carsley off because of one game, just seems ridiculous to me. He's managed England U-21's for three years. Of course that's far less pressure than managing the full team, but you can't be successful at it like he has, if you're completely clueless tactically or can't manage a team. He's earned his chance and I'll judge him over his entire time in charge. What's going to happen if we appoint Guardiola next summer and he has a shocking game, as plenty of England managers have done in the past? It's not as if this is the only poor performance and bad defeat that any of us have ever seen. Are we going to get rid of him too? He obviously wouldn't be up to the job, if we apply the same logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hallucinating Goose Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 28 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said: I'm sorry but I just think that's reactionary nonsense. Are we really going to decide that he's awful and not up to the job, based on one game? I'm not saying he should get the job full time - that will depend also on who else is available and willing to put their hat in the ring (if Guardiola is available, I'm having him as my first choice), when this interim period comes to an end - but to write Carsley off because of one game, just seems ridiculous to me. He's managed England U-21's for three years. Of course that's far less pressure than managing the full team, but you can't be successful at it like he has, if you're completely clueless tactically or can't manage a team. He's earned his chance and I'll judge him over his entire time in charge. What's going to happen if we appoint Guardiola next summer and he has a shocking game, as plenty of England managers have done in the past? It's not as if this is the only poor performance and bad defeat that any of us have ever seen. Are we going to get rid of him too? He obviously wouldn't be up to the job, if we apply the same logic. It's not that England just had a bad game though, it isn't that they just underperformed; it was so visible what the problems were, so obvious even to people who perhaps are less knowledgeable about football tactics and it was clear to see that the mistakes that Carsley had made tactically could have so easily been remedied. It wasn't just the team performing badly, not following the systems they had been taught, it was the systems were so obviously not up to scratch. You can't really use Carsley's experience coaching the U21s as a guide to whether he would be good at coaching the 1st team because competition and quality at the age restricted levels is so much poorer and England produce a lot of talent at those levels, more than a lot of their rivals. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Decimus Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 (edited) 41 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said: I'm sorry but I just think that's reactionary nonsense. Are we really going to decide that he's awful and not up to the job, based on one game? I'm not saying he should get the job full time - that will depend also on who else is available and willing to put their hat in the ring (if Guardiola is available, I'm having him as my first choice), when this interim period comes to an end - but to write Carsley off because of one game, just seems ridiculous to me. He's managed England U-21's for three years. Of course that's far less pressure than managing the full team, but you can't be successful at it like he has, if you're completely clueless tactically or can't manage a team. He's earned his chance and I'll judge him over his entire time in charge. What's going to happen if we appoint Guardiola next summer and he has a shocking game, as plenty of England managers have done in the past? It's not as if this is the only poor performance and bad defeat that any of us have ever seen. Are we going to get rid of him too? He obviously wouldn't be up to the job, if we apply the same logic. I think you're making the mistake that Carsley is the presumptive heir to the England job. He's the interim manager, which carries no expectation that he'll be given the job and is often simply to hold the fort while a new manager is selected. Obviously, it would be naive to think that interim managers never get the job, and often if they impress while being in the interim role they'll get the job. Southgate was seen as having steadied the ship (from a very low ebb) and unlucky not to have beaten Spain. My point about Carsley is simply that he probably won't get the job now because he hasn't impressed in his short time on the job. Whether or not this makes sense long term isn't really the point, because he isn't the full England manager and as such doesn't get the benefit of time to change the system. There's got to be some justification in promoting him from interim manager to full manager, otherwise why not just make him full manager in the first place? Edit: I also meant to say that it's actually his third game and other than a decent start against Ireland, the other performances were underwhelming. Edited October 11 by Maximus Decimus A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 stone giant Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 1 minute ago, The Hallucinating Goose said: it was so visible what the problems were, so obvious even to people who perhaps are less knowledgeable about football tactics and it was clear to see that the mistakes that Carsley had made tactically could have so easily been remedied. Football fans often think they know better than the manager in charge. That's not something unique to watching Carsley's England. How many people (and maybe you can answer whether you yourself did or not) thought that Southgate got it wrong in the summer to keep picking Harry Kane? So, let's break that down - fans watching on tv at home thought that they knew better than an England manager (Southgate) who earns millions of pounds a year to do the job, had reached the World Cup SF and Euro Champs final, etc. You're telling me that I can't use Carsley's experience of managing England U'21's as a guide, but you want to tell me that people watching at home (many of whom probably haven't managed anything except a team on Football Manager) know better than him. All I'm saying is, it's one game. Get a grip people. If we play this badly for the next three or four games, and Carsley continues with the same line up, formation, tactics etc., I'll also decide he's not up to the job. But I just can't believe the reaction to one poor performance. Especially when it's a Nations League game, which to me is the time that we should be experimenting with things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 stone giant Posted October 11 Share Posted October 11 3 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said: There's got to be some justification in promoting him from interim manager to full manager, otherwise why not just make him full manager in the first place? The fact that they've only appointed him interim for now, doesn't necessarily mean they didn't or don't think he could do the job full time. There is the huge shadow of Guardiola looming over this situation, and in my view that is what has made the FA go for an interim manager. If we could get Guardiola next summer, I think pretty much everyone would want that. So why would you appoint anyone full time right now, even if you thought they would do a good job? That applies to Carsley, Potter, Howe, anyone. You're still going to think, yeah but Guardiola would be even better, if we could get him. So it makes perfect sense from their perspective to make Carsley interim manager, because it buys them time (waiting to see if Guardiola is available), because you can easily slot him back into the U21 role. If he performs well and Guardiola doesn't become available, fans will be calling for him to be considered for the job full time - so at that point they have the option to appoint him. Or they could go with a Potter etc. if they choose. But anyway, I just find the pile on of Carsley, a bit ridiculous. Maybe I could understand it more if we'd been watching absolute brilliance from England teams under various managers for 30 years or more. But we haven't. Every one of them has dished up some utter rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hallucinating Goose Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 8 hours ago, 17 stone giant said: Football fans often think they know better than the manager in charge. That's not something unique to watching Carsley's England. How many people (and maybe you can answer whether you yourself did or not) thought that Southgate got it wrong in the summer to keep picking Harry Kane? So, let's break that down - fans watching on tv at home thought that they knew better than an England manager (Southgate) who earns millions of pounds a year to do the job, had reached the World Cup SF and Euro Champs final, etc. You're telling me that I can't use Carsley's experience of managing England U'21's as a guide, but you want to tell me that people watching at home (many of whom probably haven't managed anything except a team on Football Manager) know better than him. All I'm saying is, it's one game. Get a grip people. If we play this badly for the next three or four games, and Carsley continues with the same line up, formation, tactics etc., I'll also decide he's not up to the job. But I just can't believe the reaction to one poor performance. Especially when it's a Nations League game, which to me is the time that we should be experimenting with things. The fact that people sat at home with very little managerial experience could see what was wrong with the systems being played the other day shows just how poor the tactics being deployed were. I am a football fan, I'm even a season ticket holder at my local team, but I don't know masses about management or football tactics but I could see what was wrong with England the other day and that is the problem, that even some randomer could see what was wrong. So here goes: 1. England should have been playing a centre forward. Without a CF, we kept getting the ball out to the wingers but once they were reaching the box there wasn't a team mate in the box for them to cross the ball into, they had to pass the ball back into the middle of the pitch and pass behind them meaning that play was massively slowed down, giving a tight Greek defence time to break out of the box and completely halt England's go forward, something England were stopping themselves by not having that player in the box to continue the go forward. 2. The attack based system meant that the team were pushing far too high up the field and with the wing backs pushing right up into the opposition half it meant that only one single defender was being left back in England's own half, meaning when Greece broke out from defence and stifled that halted England attack, Greece could simply put the ball over the top of a very high pressing England team and easily get round that isolated, lone defender and thus an equally isolated keeper as well. 3. The fact that England were pressing so high meant that Greece didn't have to waste as much effort or energy in breaking out, a simple little dink over the top completely wiped out the England team apart from that one defender I've mentioned. The wing backs pressing so high also meant they were constantly running backwards and forwards up the length of the pitch and thus were wasting so much energy and were incapable of keeping up with the Greek break. 4. So how do you remedy all this? Well your wing backs need to stay back to fill those gaps on the edges to stifle any chance of a break down the wings. With the wing backs indeed back, it means your two centre backs can also sit further back, slowing down a break and allowing your keeper more time to set himself, had this have happened Pickford would have had a much better game cos he was rubbish due to being completely isolated. Having your defenders planted further back means they are wasting anywhere near as much energy and can stop any fast break from the opposition. 5. It is imperative that you have a centre forward placed just a little ahead of the wingers so he is constantly in place for the wingers to send the ball into. Similar to the defence, if he is constantly there then he is not using up energy running backwards and forwards, he just has to stay in line with the defence that indeed can't break out as quickly because they have a defensive line to face if they do. 6. And like I said, if that man is in the middle then the wingers don't have to completely stifle a fast break down the edge, turn back inside and allow time for the opposition defence to set and break out to stop the attack in its place. There's probably more I could think of but that's just the stuff off the top of my head at 8 in the morning when I've just woken up and read your message. It really isn't rocket science what was wrong with England the other day and if a half asleep Goose with no managerial experience can work it out at this time in the morning then that just shows how visibly and how obviously bad Carsley's systems were the other day. *drops the microphone and strides off the stage* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 (edited) Apart from England games on ITV and Wales on Iplayer ( in Welsh), all other games on Viaplay International YouTube. This is because no one has bought the rights off of Viaplay who hold them, and have now left the UK market. Actually this isn't bad at all, because we've got the pick of the games for free on YouTube. Link below to website that I've added to my phone menu, which shows where all games on TV are, which channel, for every competition throughout the season. https://www.live-footballontv.com/uefa-nations-league-on-tv.html Edited October 12 by HawkMan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Decimus Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 10 hours ago, 17 stone giant said: The fact that they've only appointed him interim for now, doesn't necessarily mean they didn't or don't think he could do the job full time. There is the huge shadow of Guardiola looming over this situation, and in my view that is what has made the FA go for an interim manager. If we could get Guardiola next summer, I think pretty much everyone would want that. So why would you appoint anyone full time right now, even if you thought they would do a good job? That applies to Carsley, Potter, Howe, anyone. You're still going to think, yeah but Guardiola would be even better, if we could get him. So it makes perfect sense from their perspective to make Carsley interim manager, because it buys them time (waiting to see if Guardiola is available), because you can easily slot him back into the U21 role. If he performs well and Guardiola doesn't become available, fans will be calling for him to be considered for the job full time - so at that point they have the option to appoint him. Or they could go with a Potter etc. if they choose. But anyway, I just find the pile on of Carsley, a bit ridiculous. Maybe I could understand it more if we'd been watching absolute brilliance from England teams under various managers for 30 years or more. But we haven't. Every one of them has dished up some utter rubbish. I think you've just outlined the whole issue. He's only the interim manager and as such a stop gap. I think your arguments would make sense if he had been made full England manager. If he had I would have agreed it was an overreaction to a friendly and that he needed time to he judged. My point is simply that to make the jump from interim to full manager, you have to impress in the role. Because it is such a limited time, one very poor performance is very damaging to his prospects, and I suspect probably too much. He only has a few games to prove himself, and if one of them is a game where Greece at home got the ball in the net 5 times, you can hardly expect the FA to announce they're giving him the job full time. I can't see Guardiola taking the role, it's one of those too-good-to-be-true things and a huge risk for him. He's only 5th favourite anyway. At this point, it's looking like Tuchel is the front runner. A Widnesian in Ireland blog What is the best system for Super League? An honest appraisal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 32 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said: I can't see Guardiola taking the role, it's one of those too-good-to-be-true things and a huge risk for him. He's only 5th favourite anyway. At this point, it's looking like Tuchel is the front runner. Guardiola is a good (excellent) club manager and his history of how he has managed resources shows that he is likely to be a very good club manager wherever he goes. There is absolutely nothing in his history to show that he would be an effective international manager and I think it would actually be a massive risk for England to appoint him. 1 Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 stone giant Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 10 minutes ago, gingerjon said: There is absolutely nothing in his history to show that he would be an effective international manager What sorts of things do you mean? And if Guardiola doesn't have them, who does have those things in their history? Have all previous England managers had them? Either way, I think we both know that if Guardiola wanted the job, the FA would appoint him, irrespective of any risk that you or anyone else might think exists. They simply couldn't turn him down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted October 12 Share Posted October 12 37 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said: What sorts of things do you mean? The ability to create his own squad, and secondary squad, of players of his own choosing and work with them for weeks, months, and years. Club management is a completely different concept to international management. International management, you're basically working with players who simply may not be anyone you could choose but who are all you have available. That's not to remotely belittle Guardiola, just to observe that there's not much in his history to suggest any interest in that kind of management. Also, being blunt, only a rank fool would ever take the England job anyway. You'll never get thanked. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hallucinating Goose Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 A slightly better performance by England. Still showed some massive defensive frailties and major indecision going forward but all 3 goals were all really good goals I thought so that's something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriginalMrC Posted October 13 Share Posted October 13 Guardiola won't take the England job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattSantos Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 On 11/10/2024 at 23:18, 17 stone giant said: Football fans often think they know better than the manager in charge. That's not something unique to watching Carsley's England. How many people (and maybe you can answer whether you yourself did or not) thought that Southgate got it wrong in the summer to keep picking Harry Kane? So, let's break that down - fans watching on tv at home thought that they knew better than an England manager (Southgate) who earns millions of pounds a year to do the job, had reached the World Cup SF and Euro Champs final, etc. You're telling me that I can't use Carsley's experience of managing England U'21's as a guide, but you want to tell me that people watching at home (many of whom probably haven't managed anything except a team on Football Manager) know better than him. All I'm saying is, it's one game. Get a grip people. If we play this badly for the next three or four games, and Carsley continues with the same line up, formation, tactics etc., I'll also decide he's not up to the job. But I just can't believe the reaction to one poor performance. Especially when it's a Nations League game, which to me is the time that we should be experimenting with things. ROFLCOPTER Was he wrong in picking Harry Kane. Probably. With all the 10s he picked, why play someone who was clearly not 100% who likes to drift into the position he's already saturated. We needed someone to stretch the game. Was he wrong in starting TAA in the defensive pivot in the first 2 games without even trying it in the warm up games. Yes. Was he wrong in picking Gallagher in the next game in a 2. Yes. He was lucky with McGuires injury (he would have deffo played) and then finding Mainoo. We were garbage and lucky to progress against much weaker opposition. We had no left back until the final, which was his first game in months. This shouldn't be happening. Poor squad management that. He then stumbled into a back 3 We have an excellent group of players that through individual moments carried an incohesive team. As a United fan, there are parallels in terms of the lack of patterns we should be expecting. Southgate was absolutely excellent at creating a culture and a team that people could like again. He was just found out tactically when it mattered. That's fine. The new manager needs to make decisions and play players in their best positions. If someone misses out, then tough. The new manager should be English. It won't be Carsley, he doesnt have the experience at this level with the media, never mind the shambles that was the Greece game. Howe is favourite for mine Jeff. Running the Rob Burrow marathon to raise money for the My Name'5 Doddie foundation: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ben-dyas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidi Fidi Gold Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 16 hours ago, OriginalMrC said: Guardiola won't take the England job If Pep did take the job, he'd spend the first 6 months looking for the cheque book and the second 6 months trying to find loop holes in the FFP. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OriginalMrC Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 36 minutes ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said: If Pep did take the job, he'd spend the first 6 months looking for the cheque book and the second 6 months trying to find loop holes in the FFP. He earns 20 million a year at City and for his next job he'll likely get offered more than that. When the charges kick in he'll jump ship but if anyone thinks he'll take a pay cut and take a step down to manage England are in cloud cuckoo land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 2 hours ago, Sidi Fidi Gold said: If Pep did take the job, he'd spend the first 6 months looking for the cheque book and the second 6 months trying to find loop holes in the FFP. On a smaller scale, this is why I always thought people who wanted Allerdyce or (more particularly) Redknapp to manage England were deluded. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 stone giant Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 8 hours ago, MattSantos said: Southgate was absolutely excellent at creating a culture and a team that people could like again. He was just found out tactically when it mattered. That's fine. Is it fine though? Is that what he was paid £5 million pounds a year for (or whatever it was)? To create a 'fun culture' for the players, whilst being tactically less aware than someone like yourself? Anyway, you're kind of making my point for me. Which is that I can't believe the stick that Carsley has received (and I point to people like Phil McNulty on the BBC website) over one game against Greece - his 3rd game in charge - compared to the easy ride that Southgate was given by many, despite him being tactically flawed after being in charge for 8 years! I'm pleased Carsley secured another victory. That takes him to a 75% win ratio, which is not bad from his first four games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, 17 stone giant said: I'm pleased Carsley secured another victory. That takes him to a 75% win ratio, which is not bad from his first four games. ....in league B of the Nations League thanks to the ineptitude of Southgate who got us relegated. Seriously it should be 6 out of 6 wins against this opposition with the talent we have. The FA have a problem if they want an English manager, there's not many in the Premier League, Dyche, O'Neill, Copper, Howe and that's it, Russell Martin is Scottish. None of whom are experienced with trophy winning teams. Personally I'd give it to Tuchel before Man Utd get him. Edited October 14 by HawkMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 stone giant Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 4 minutes ago, HawkMan said: Seriously it should be 6 out of 6 wins against this opposition with the talent we have. But you could have said that about many England matches over the years - that we should be beating such and such a team. Admittedly when we do slip up, it's normally a draw rather than a defeat, but the point still stands. Things often don't go exactly as we might think they should. I just think that we should give Carsley the time to prove that he's a miserable failure (if that's what he is), before we decide to label him as such. It's too early to do that right now, given that we still have the opportunity to top the group and get promote back to League A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted October 14 Share Posted October 14 Guardiola won't and shouldn't take the job. It's a poisoned chalice and in any case, the culture under him at City could not be reproduced in the England set up. It's taken him a good few years of 40/50 games a season to get the team to where it is today. He wouldn't get frequent enough access to the players to mould them into playing his way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattSantos Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 13 hours ago, 17 stone giant said: Is it fine though? Is that what he was paid £5 million pounds a year for (or whatever it was)? To create a 'fun culture' for the players, whilst being tactically less aware than someone like yourself? Anyway, you're kind of making my point for me. Which is that I can't believe the stick that Carsley has received (and I point to people like Phil McNulty on the BBC website) over one game against Greece - his 3rd game in charge - compared to the easy ride that Southgate was given by many, despite him being tactically flawed after being in charge for 8 years! I'm pleased Carsley secured another victory. That takes him to a 75% win ratio, which is not bad from his first four games. It's fine in that it isn't the end of the world. You shouldn't make stuff up to prove a point. It's what thick people do. He played a massive part in people liking the England team again, including the players. You keep mentioning that individuals posting are espousing that we know more, that we're 'more tactically aware'. No. What we're doing, is watching, reading, listening and then forming an opinion. A significant majority of ex players, pundits, journalists called out Southgate's limited tactical nouse during the tournament. - If you're managing England and you lose to Greece at home, whilst picking a mental team, you deserve stick. That's the job. Carsley, whilst supposedly a lovely coach, isn't the right man for the job. He's proving that in his record (75% against that opposition is bad) and the way he's handling the media. 1 Running the Rob Burrow marathon to raise money for the My Name'5 Doddie foundation: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ben-dyas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattSantos Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 12 hours ago, 17 stone giant said: But you could have said that about many England matches over the years - that we should be beating such and such a team. Admittedly when we do slip up, it's normally a draw rather than a defeat, but the point still stands. Things often don't go exactly as we might think they should. I just think that we should give Carsley the time to prove that he's a miserable failure (if that's what he is), before we decide to label him as such. It's too early to do that right now, given that we still have the opportunity to top the group and get promote back to League A. Sport at this level doesn't have time. It's not a rebuild... He's not a failure, just not up to the job and given his TV interviews, he knows it, too. Running the Rob Burrow marathon to raise money for the My Name'5 Doddie foundation: https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ben-dyas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted October 15 Share Posted October 15 Momentum seems to be swinging behind Tuchel. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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