Martyn Sadler - Talking Rugby League

[The Parksider]

The 2X12 and 3X8 allows this gap to bridged by both increasing the crowds (due to there being something to play for and adding in 2 ex-SL teams) of the top KPC teams and allowing money men to spend more on players in full time environment.

1. It's a gross assumption that by demoting two SL clubs their crowds will go up, and that crowds will go up across the championship, and that the four SL clubs also demoted will get bigger crowds too.

2. It's also a gross assumption that there will be players for the money men to buy as many decent players go back to Australia and we end up with a shortage. Where are all these players going to come from or are we just going to pay semi pro lads to turn pro?

I'm all for the idea. If it works which is a massive IF then great, if it doesn't then we can try to get back to reality albeit 19 long years after Superleague started.

Edited May 25, 2013 by The Parksider

[sweaty craiq]

You know full well that above and below the split between premiership and championship in soccer are dozens of big clubs with big attendances and wealthy owners who run academies and produce their own players.

Do you really want me to list them to show you how P & R works in soccer because of this?

Do you really want me to go back over the fact SL clubs turn over from £3.2M to £7M. and that even the top championship club can only just manage £1M at a stretch to show P & R doesn't work in RL.

 

I would hazard a guess that the turnover of Hull City is less than a third of QPR this season

Edited May 25, 2013 by sweaty craiq

[The Parksider]

1. For you therefore to dismiss the ambitions of Hemel and Gloucester

2. to pull in our horns and refuse to get on this expansionary model of progress demonstrated by all these various sports will be disastrous in the long term.

1. I don't think you even know what their ambitions are? You assume they have a plan to be Superleague clubs. If so tell me how it will work financially??

2. Set out the way you see the finances working for this "expansionary model of progress" please???

Because yet again you fail to put the pounds to the plan....

[The Parksider]

I would hazard a guess that the turnover of Hull City is less than a third of QPR this season

So what does that mean then???

Is that really an argument for P & R working in Superleague???

Like last time Hull City will have the players, the fans and the money to make a good go of it as they did last time. OK they went down but now they are popping back up again so P & R works in soccer. It doesn't in RL.

The maximum turnover in the Championship is a 1 Million, to just be on the bottom rung of Superleague takes £3.2million. SKY give you £1.2Million

Championship clubs are a £Million short of Superleague and several million short of competing.

Where's the money coming from then? Where's the players coming from, because Hull City will have hundreds to choose from.......

[keighley]

I just cannot believe you have written this.

The NRL has the same teams every year, and the rest are feeders.

The NRL also has loads of money so It can afford to allow another club in who in turn have loads of money and can compete.

I'm all for copying this over here. But I have obvious reservations.

You however never bother to include the obvious - the money.

 

The NRL has gone from a Sydney metropolitan based league to one with teams in Penrith, Newcastle, Brisbane, the Queensland Coast, Canberra and Auckland. They are considering bids from Perth, Gosford and, I think, another Queensland area.

 

They, indeed, are cashed up but now they have an independent governing body who control the money, not the clubs, and are willing to spread it thinner.

 

I would expect any new entrants to the NRL to be financially sound.

 

I would expect any new entrants to SL to be financially sound. Are these new proposals calling for automatic p and r or will any clubs who win promotion have to meet financial guidelines ? I suspect the latter. Similarly if new SL licences are issued in the absence of p and r, the licencees will have to be evaluated for their financial strength 9 properly this time ).

[The Parksider]

1. The NRL has gone from a Sydney metropolitan based league to one with teams in Penrith, Newcastle, Brisbane, the Queensland Coast, Canberra and Auckland. They, indeed, are cashed up

 

2. I would expect any new entrants to SL to be financially sound.

1. Thank you, at last you admit NRL suceeds on money.

2. Well they aren't and several SL incumbents aren't either. Hopefully you also admit we are stuck without growth in the money.

here's the growth I see....

1. Millions of ££'s of gifts from Koukash

2. Bradford rebuilding their big fan base

3. Wakefield getting 10,000 into newmarket

4. Toulouse getting millions from their local sponsors and the maire.

These four clubs must not be allowed to be relegated from Superleague in this new hairbrained plan.

[keighley]

1. I don't think you even know what their ambitions are? You assume they have a plan to be Superleague clubs. If so tell me how it will work financially??

2. Set out the way you see the finances working for this "expansionary model of progress" please???

Because yet again you fail to put the pounds to the plan....

 

1. I don't know what their ambitions are. maybe they only aspire to be feeder clubs like Hunslet. on the other hand......

 

2. It is up to the individual clubs to sort out their finances coupled with any initiatives coming from the RFL. Going by the majority of current SL models, the finances will be heavily dependent on investor input and now the avenue is about to be opened for progression all the way to the top, there is much more likelihood of attracting some.

 

Maybe the progression will be slowly, slowly like Sheffield eagles, from nothing to potential double winners and possible Challenge cup semi finalists by strong administrators, prudent player recruitment and slowly expanding their junior base and with the possibility of a new council built ground on the horizon. They are now on a pole position to find money men and they are in the much desired big city environment.

 

      Always you throw it to me to account for finances when it will be clearly up to the club and league officials. I throw the gauntlet back to you and pose the question that I have asked already. Do you think the RFL are putting forward these suggestions for p and r and league re organisation without considering how any such plans will be financed.?

[keighley]

1. Thank you, at last you admit NRL suceeds on money.

2. Well they aren't and several SL incumbents aren't either. Hopefully you also admit we are stuck without growth in the money.

here's the growth I see....

1. Millions of ££'s of gifts from Koukash

2. Bradford rebuilding their big fan base

3. Wakefield getting 10,000 into newmarket

4. Toulouse getting millions from their local sponsors and the maire.

These four clubs must not be allowed to be relegated from Superleague in this new hairbrained plan.

 

And with all those advantages at their disposal it is unlikely that they will be although Bradford weren't able to hack on big gates alone in their last incarnation.

 

However, it will not be the end if their administration and/or playing strength is so weak that they do get relegated. Like Wigan before them they will have the opportunity to be promoted asap following their relegation.

 

Only last year you were saying that Salford could go and good riddance but along comes Koukash and suddenly they are blue blooded members of the aristocracy. If they get relegated we will see where his heart is. Koukash came out of left field as they say in baseball to rescue the Reds. Good for him, good for them.

 

However, now that p and r is back on the agenda there is more likelihood of Championship teams attracting deepocketed individuals. Nobody should be above the law or exempt from failure just because they are rich and powerful.

[The Parksider]

Only last year you were saying that Salford could go and good riddance but along comes Koukash and suddenly they are blue blooded members of the aristocracy. If they get relegated we will see where his heart is. Koukash came out of left field as they say in baseball to rescue the Reds. Good for him, good for them.

And good for you. You are slowly getting it it's all about money.

But if Salford grow into a big club over the years what return on Koukash's investments in the club do you think he'll get??

I'll tell you. None. He's setting himself up for a mega loss.

Let's go back to how we started this - Oh yes you said that Championship clubs getting £180k a year will allow them to build and compete.

I think you now can understand your wrong it takes millions to create a Superleague club......

[Padge]

To refuse to consider what makes a sport successful and to consider adapting any such successful conditions to our sport is to stick your head in the sand.

 

The most successful RL competition on the planet is the NRL and they are moving towards expansion, albeit by awarding new licences, but expansion nevertheless. In the UK P and r is the way to get to the top tier, but I am open to the argument that they just award more licences and increase the size and scope of the top tier that way.

 

In any event, I think your unchanging static vision of SL is due for a rude shock in the near future and not before time.

The NRL aren't expanding by P&R though are they, they are expanding by having an exclusive top elite who bring an a large amount of money that means they can afford expansion.

 

You want the opposite, which has failed, failed, failed, time and time again.

[Lobbygobbler]

The NRL aren't expanding by P&R though are they, they are expanding by having an exclusive top elite who bring an a large amount of money that means they can afford expansion.

You want the opposite, which has failed, failed, failed, time and time again.

They arent expanding though and only have 15 teams. There are many towns and cities with no NRL club.

By not having P&R they are letting other sports creep in. One example is the advantage AFL have taken in Western Sydney due to the merger of Balmain and Wests

[Padge]

They arent expanding though and only have 15 teams. There are many towns and cities with no NRL club.

By not having P&R they are letting other sports creep in. One example is the advantage AFL have taken in Western Sydney due to the merger of Balmain and Wests

Is that a fact?

Edited May 25, 2013 by Padge

[JohnM]

...and where are the fans to come from in all this? Where is the demand modelling? Despite all the great work being done in places like Hemel, what information is there to indicate significant club revenues.

Sure, there are no easy answers, but I'd love to are some serious evidence-based argument as to how p and r will ensure we beat Australia, increase revenue, profit, crowds, media coverage, expansion, end war and famine and cure all known diseases.

[Padge]

Swinton had over 100 years, to get where, to the top and back. Workington set out almost 70 years ago and have won the challenge Cup, the Champions cup, the Lancashire Cup and have been in SL only to regress. now they are on the move again and with the opportunities made available when p and r is reinstated have the chance, however slight, of regaining past glories.

And what is the legacy of these 'great' wins.

 

Decrepit stadia or even no stadium at all.

 

Crowds that amateurs can better.

 

HIstory tells you that some of the clubs you rhyme off as potential SL clubs will never, ever attract enough people to be able to hack it at what is NOW the top level, not what the top level was 50 years ago.

[keighley]

And good for you. You are slowly getting it it's all about money.

But if Salford grow into a big club over the years what return on Koukash's investments in the club do you think he'll get??

I'll tell you. None. He's setting himself up for a mega loss.

Let's go back to how we started this - Oh yes you said that Championship clubs getting £180k a year will allow them to build and compete.

I think you now can understand your wrong it takes millions to create a Superleague club......

 

 

It's all about the money but an extra 180,000 will not help. Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth at once ? I didn't say such funding would enable a team to enter SL. I said it would help to make them stronger organsations and on the back of success from that strength then gates, revenues and maybe investors will come along and, ultimately, SL  might be a possibility especially if the salary cap for SL is lowered.

 

If Salford suffers mega losses and Koukash bails out where does that leave your vaunted SL elite. Same for Toulouse. If they don't make money they might bail, .

 

You could say the same about any of the investor funded SL teams, which is a majority. All the more reason to lower the salary cap to negate excessive losses

 

i would say these recent re organisation proposals are designed to creaed a raft of solid clubs so that any investor witthdrawal at the top and subsequent failure of the particular club involved will lead the their seamless replacement with a team from the lower division which is more fit to purpose than at present.

[keighley]

...and where are the fans to come from in all this? Where is the demand modelling? Despite all the great work being done in places like Hemel, what information is there to indicate significant club revenues.

Sure, there are no easy answers, but I'd love to are some serious evidence-based argument as to how p and r will ensure we beat Australia, increase revenue, profit, crowds, media coverage, expansion, end war and famine and cure all known diseases.

 

And I'd like to see some serious evidence as to how a small parochial rump SL haemorraging money like a burst artery will do the same. revenues are down, crowds are down, expansion is verboten, Australia are still, overwhelming favourite  Fleet Street needs a GPS to navigate past Watford and delusions of grandeur about SL is a serious Phycological problem.

[keighley]

And what is the legacy of these 'great' wins.

 

Decrepit stadia or even no stadium at all.

 

Crowds that amateurs can better.

 

HIstory tells you that some of the clubs you rhyme off as potential SL clubs will never, ever attract enough people to be able to hack it at what is NOW the top level, not what the top level was 50 years ago.

 

And maybe no avenue to the top is partly responsible for such a state of affairs.

 

But you miss the point. The point I was making is that 50 or more years ago these clubs were the top dogs but things changed.  A cast in stone, unchanging SL will have teams in it that are on their way down to the levels of the Swinton's and Workington's but ring fencing  will keep them slowly fading in the top tier and prevent any newly vibrant clubs from replacing them. Why on earth should the Broncos be kept in  SL at the expense of Fax or Fev or Toulouse ?

 

Look at Huddersfield pre Davy, rotting stadium, crowds in the hundreds and in what is now CC1. If Davy was just taking charge of a Huddersfield in that state now, we would never see them in SL and maybe looking at a double and providing England with numerous international players,

 

Look at Hull KR, same thing. Crowds in the low 1000's, decrepit stadium. In CC1. Now they are in SL, crowds in the 7,000 range, totally revamped stadium. yes they are losing money like most of the rest of SL but look how far they have progressed. If the SL was ring fenced they would not have been there.

 

These new proposals will give lower level teams who are making serious progress a chance of making the top tier and replacing failing clubs who are already there. This, in my opinion, is a good thing.

 

The creation of a larger number of stable teams and an avenue for them to progress and replace stagnant, moribund teams from the top division is a good thing. 

 

Don't give me the "Promotion has never worked guff either ". For Huddersfield, Wakefield, Hull KR, Salford and  Castleford, it has worked just fine. Even Wigan maybe.

[nadera78]

Why on earth should the Broncos be kept in  SL at the expense of Fax or Fev or Toulouse ?

I'm the biggest critic of the way London have been run, the biggest critic. But even at their absolute maximum, if they fulfilled their potential in every single way, Fev and Fax would only just (and I do mean only just) offer more than the currently-shambolic London club. The potential rewards from even a moderately successful London outweigh almost every club in the game, a genuinely successful London would be the most important club in Rugby League. 

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I'm the biggest critic of the way London have been run, the biggest critic. But even at their absolute maximum, if they fulfilled their potential in every single way, Fev and Fax would only just (and I do mean only just) offer more than the currently-shambolic London club. The potential rewards from even a moderately successful London outweigh almost every club in the game, a genuinely successful London would be the most important club in Rugby League. 

agreed

[Maximus Decimus]

I'm the biggest critic of the way London have been run, the biggest critic. But even at their absolute maximum, if they fulfilled their potential in every single way, Fev and Fax would only just (and I do mean only just) offer more than the currently-shambolic London club. The potential rewards from even a moderately successful London outweigh almost every club in the game, a genuinely successful London would be the most important club in Rugby League.

The doubt is of course whether a genuinely successful London club is a possibility.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

The doubt is of course whether a genuinely successful London club is a possibility.

I suppose it depends what you mean by success

you could question the possibility of Fev Fax or any of the other candidates being successful-an equally if not more tenuous possibility.

 

There does need to be a close hard look at the way London operate.

[petesmithfan]

I tell you what is tenuous............. Martin Saddler trying to suggest  that Steve Ganson making his balls up this weekend is a reason not to have the new option 3 structure. 

Edited May 27, 2013 by petesmithfan

[dengol]

I believe that a method of P&R should be found probably on the basis of one up one down.

 

The RL should not take away the requirements of the franchise system including finance and ground condition and a three season protection for the promoted club.

 

.I would also like to see some help for the relegated club!

 

I certainly don't want to see an 8 team P&R battle although I do recognise that Championship clubs/fans would welcome opportunities for  promotion and indeed many would vote for the proposal.

 

I this the brainchild of Woods, Rimmer and the rest of the board or is any honest individual on the board willing to put their name and their future on the line.

 

I was never sure about Lewis but for goodness sake give the existing system a chance with a modification to include P&R! - But not the 8 team proposal and certainly not every year!!! The reasons for all the alternatives have been discussed at length on the boards and I don't want to list them again

 

People are discussing the results of polls but I feel that they do not represent the feelings of the majority of fans.

 

Come on RL, please stop making things up, keep standards rising and find a way of bringing back P&R

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I tell you what is tenuous............. Martin Saddler trying to suggest  that Steve Ganson making his balls up this weekend is a reason not to have the new option 3 structure. 

well thanks for that. , but it isn't such a big deal considering the compelling nature of all the other reasons(qv) not to have that that structure.

[Maximus Decimus]

I suppose it depends what you mean by success

you could question the possibility of Fev Fax or any of the other candidates being successful-an equally if not more tenuous possibility.

 

There does need to be a close hard look at the way London operate.

I think there is a genuine argument to be had about London. I've always been pro-London because of the reasons given but the last few years I have really started to doubt whether they ever can be even a moderate success.

It's all well and good saying that they do a similar job to Fev and Fax but London are a ticking timebomb. There simply isn't the money to sustain them in their current form and within the next few years there will be another crisis there unless things change.

My point is that if the potential for their success isn't there and I'm not sure it is, then their perpetual inclusion ahead of teams such as Fax and Fev is grossly unfair. There is only so long potential can be used as an argument. The potential of the new stadium has arguably kept Salford going for years but the move has done nothing to bring out their apparent potential. It's taken a wealthy backer to get anything going there.