Martyn Sadler - Talking Rugby League

[keighley]

1. No I don't we have discussed this. The best kids who play RL eventually think about playing pro. I can only tell you in running a kids soccer team the kids were scouted at 10 years old and by 11 they were dreaming of being professionals. This was my experience. I can't speak for the 7 year olds but on intake they sported man U, Liverpool, Barcelons and Leeds shirts before they'd kicked a ball.

2. Again I'm sorry but you continue to ignore in big professional RL places like Leeds, Wigan and Hull they produce loads of young players.

In places where Rl is played at a lower level e.g. Doncaster, York, keighley, they produce hardly any professionals.

You say the "think" but i am giving you actual facts and experiences.

3. Yes there's half a dozen Cumbrians playing SL first team, and yes maybe in 10 years time there'll also be half a dozen londoners playing SL first team.

We need more pro players from outside the M62.

London is delivering a professional junior system and it's ludicrous to say that doesn't need a professional club.

It was also silly to say leigh delivered 200 more fans than Broncos on Saturday. This is about producing professional RL players and London produce more than leigh and have only been at it a few years...

 

1. i don't know about soccer, too much of a wendy game for me. I do know I joinde an amateur RL team in Keighley at the age of 15 and i did so because me and all my mates used to play endless touch rugby in the local park and fancied a go at the real thing. We had been mates for years and I know it was not the lure of a pro career in RL that precipitated that. There were about twnety of us and two did become pro with Keighley. The remaindcer went on the various professional and labouring jobs and going pro never was part of the lure.

 

Where I am located now is 3,000 miles from any pro Rl or pro RU team but hordes of kids are joining junior RU programmes, from deprived families to kids of the eilte and it is not the lure of a professional rugby career which is driving them.

 

Buying a replica jersey of your favourite team does not corellate with a desire to play professionally. Kids are not stupid. most of them are aware of their abilities from an early age and the pursuit of a pro career does not come into the equation until their skill levels suggest that it might be an option.

 

2. This is a chicken and egg situation. In other words did Leeds, Wigan et al cause the junior leagues to Be strong or did the presence of strong junior leagues from the dawn of the game in those areas aid in the senior club beoming a power.

 

The fact that many many professionals from Cumbria, Dewsbury/Batley, Leigh and lately the midlands, the north east Wales and London without there being SL clubs in the area, wouls suggest that the latter scenario is the correct hypothesis.

 

3. yes we need more pro players from all areas including outside the M62 and the evidence is that slowly they are emerging thanks to the growth of the amateur game and not due to the presence of a SL club in the area. i am not suggesting that A SL club in the areas cannot be a catylist to growth but i am suggesting that it is not a necessity and certainly not a reason to ring fence the failing SL club that are the Broncos

 

4.London have been a professional RL club since 1980, That's 33 years. Why have they only recently started producing local players.? I'll tell you why. It's because there was no decent amateur presence until the last te years or so. Its the growth of amateur clubs which produces the plares nit the presebce of a senior club.

 

5. Are you sure that, pound for pound, London produces many more pro plares than Leigh. there have been many many top class pro players from the Leigh rangers/Miners/ East clubs. an absolutely prolific reservoir of talent. i am sure any leigh based posters can corroborate such claims. with names.  Right now, Leigh are one investor from being a better SL bet than London. I'm not saying that London dosn't have potential to be bigger, but right now they are a disaster.

[keighley]

True enough, but it's also true to say that Broncos in the Championship would never be able to build a business strong enough to gain entry to SL. The club would be ignored - by the press, sponsors, investors, fans - even more than they are now. They'd also see the best academy players go up north or to union and be left with the middling players, and combining this with the lack of northerners coming down here they'd never be able to build a squad capable of challenging for promotion (assuming it's re-instated) or the title. Result? No chance of a SL presence in London for at least a generation.

 

That's not true. if p and r is reintroduced, all they would need is money. if they had money they could retain local players, sign others and buy their way back to the top. If they can't find investors in a rich cashed up megapolis like London either in the Championship or SL, then why are they still playing.? If Fev can find money in the smallest twon in the league, are you saying lLondon cannot. They did before when they were not in SL, remember the Closes ?

[nadera78]

That's not true. if p and r is reintroduced, all they would need is money. if they had money they could retain local players, sign others and buy their way back to the top. If they can't find investors in a rich cashed up megapolis like London either in the Championship or SL, then why are they still playing.? If Fev can find money in the smallest twon in the league, are you saying lLondon cannot. They did before when they were not in SL, remember the Closes ?

The Closes were before my time, but from what I know if them they were basically just keeping the club afloat.

 

Once the club has dropped down into the Championship they will become completely invisible, just like they were before SL started. The pitiful coverage they get now will disappear at the flick of a switch. Then it will be utterly impossible to find investors because no-one will even know they exist.

[keighley]

The Closes were before my time, but from what I know if them they were basically just keeping the club afloat.

 

Once the club has dropped down into the Championship they will become completely invisible, just like they were before SL started. The pitiful coverage they get now will disappear at the flick of a switch. Then it will be utterly impossible to find investors because no-one will even know they exist.

 

They played in the 2nd division premiership final at Old Trafford in front of Tv cameras. This was more publicity than they get playing once a season on Sky as an also ran SL outfit.

[Padge]

The Closes were before my time, but from what I know if them they were basically just keeping the club afloat.

 

Once the club has dropped down into the Championship they will become completely invisible, just like they were before SL started. The pitiful coverage they get now will disappear at the flick of a switch. Then it will be utterly impossible to find investors because no-one will even know they exist.

The Closes virtually bankrupted themselves to keep the club going, they are heroes for what they did and the commitment they gave. 

 

The idea that London in the championship is good for the club is farcical. That idea won't be popular with some on here that think that all clubs in Lancashire or Yorkshire should get priority over any 1980s out of town upstarts. I would give a London owner free reign to do as he pleases cap wise or other wise. I would also provide a direct subsidy above the usual SL cut.

[Padge]

They played in the 2nd division premiership final at Old Trafford in front of Tv cameras. This was more publicity than they get playing once a season on Sky as an also ran SL outfit.

Got the viewing figures for comparison?

 

One game a season only? I think not. 

 

London's games are also broadcast on the radio by the way.

[Larry the Leit]

The Closes were before my time, but from what I know if them they were basically just keeping the club afloat.

 

Once the club has dropped down into the Championship they will become completely invisible, just like they were before SL started. The pitiful coverage they get now will disappear at the flick of a switch. Then it will be utterly impossible to find investors because no-one will even know they exist.

 

So the coverage they get now is pitiful, so not much to lose then?

 

I don't know what the answer is in regards to London, I hate going to The Stoop, it's actually quite easy for me to get there from where I live but I don't like it's connection with Harlequins and hence I don't like spending money in the ground to finance them.  I've done some very dirty maths on another thread, and until London build their crowds up somehow they're going to bleed money at an alarming rate just to compete in the lower half of the table.

 

My instinct is that it would hurt them enormously to drop from the top flight, but I'm not sure if this would be any worse for them than any other club. 

[Padge]

My instinct is that it would hurt them enormously to drop from the top flight, but I'm not sure if this would be any worse for them than any other club. 

Its not the effect on the club, its the effect on the game.

[Larry the Leit]

Its not the effect on the club, its the effect on the game.

 

Which of course none of us know unless we guess.

 

Like I say, I don't know the best way forward for pro RL in London.

[Padge]

Which of course none of us know unless we guess.

 

Like I say, I don't know the best way forward for pro RL in London.

Lewis seemed to have his finger on the pulse when he put the pressure on to save London as an SL club or he would walk. He obviously knew a lot about the value of London to the game as a whole.

 

I am sure Lewis wasn't guessing.

[Larry the Leit]

Lewis seemed to have his finger on the pulse when he put the pressure on to save London as an SL club or he would walk. He obviously knew a lot about the value of London to the game as a whole.

 

I am sure Lewis wasn't guessing.

 

Hardly the kind of evidence to convince many.  Lewis, finger on the pulse, really?  His guess is no better than yours.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Larry the Leit

[nadera78]

They played in the 2nd division premiership final at Old Trafford in front of Tv cameras. This was more publicity than they get playing once a season on Sky as an also ran SL outfit.

I was around when they made Old Trafford and it was after the Closes had relinquished control. That season the RFL had been running the Crusaders until around Easter time when Brisbane Broncos bought the club. And I remember the game well, one sunday afternoon as a curtain raiser. It still didn't do anything for the club or its profile. Nor did the Brisbane ownership. The club finally started to gain some attention when SL was announced and London were allotted a place. 

 

Go back to the second tier and the club will completely disappear from the public eye. 

[Padge]

Hardly the kind of evidence to convince many.  Lewis, finger on the pulse, really?  His guess is no better than yours.

 

Its post like this that make me despair.

[nadera78]

The Closes virtually bankrupted themselves to keep the club going, they are heroes for what they did and the commitment they gave. 

 

The idea that London in the championship is good for the club is farcical. That idea won't be popular with some on here that think that all clubs in Lancashire or Yorkshire should get priority over any 1980s out of town upstarts. I would give a London owner free reign to do as he pleases cap wise or other wise. I would also provide a direct subsidy above the usual SL cut.

It's what needs to happen if we really do want London to be a realistic player in SL. But it won't, we all know that.

[Padge]

It's what needs to happen if we really do want London to be a realistic player in SL. But it won't, we all know that.

Unfortunately petty club politics, will get in the way. Many clubs don't want what is good for the game's future they want what is good for them today. Trying to be nice to everybody held the game back for 100 years (among other things), 

[Larry the Leit]

Its post like this that make me despair.

Fair enough Padge. I don't rate Lewis, and I dont think that your guesswork is anything but that. I don't have the answer and I make that clear.

I'm willing to be convinced as to what the answer is though.

Edited June 5, 2013 by Larry the Leit

[Larry the Leit]

It's what needs to happen if we really do want London to be a realistic player in SL. But it won't, we all know that.

It depends on what you mean by realistic player. There can only be one winner and thirteen failures, that's the nature of it.

The issue is convincing people that London are a just cause for additional funding, and that realistically they won't implode again. They're down to gates of less than 2000, and that'll cost a fortune to mask.

[Padge]

Fair enough Padge. I don't rate Lewis, and I dont think that your guesswork is anything but that. I don't have the answer and I make that clear.

I'm willing to be convinced as to what the answer is though.

Lewis was an excellent, influential and respected leader of the game . HIs value to the game was immense and to think he didn't know the value of London when he put his job on the line over the issue just smacks of the usual RL pettiness.

[Larry the Leit]

Lewis was an excellent, influential and respected leader of the game . HIs value to the game was immense and to think he didn't know the value of London when he put his job on the line over the issue just smacks of the usual RL pettiness.

 

Again you present opinion as fact.

[The Parksider]

yes we need more pro players from all areas including outside the M62 and the evidence is that slowly they are emerging thanks to the growth of the amateur game and not due to the presence of a SL club in the area.

We started with 8 south wales/London born lads in the first teams of british SL clubs this year.

Outside the M62/Cumbria and imports there were no top players from anywhere else.

The wales and London lads were connected with Crusaders and Broncos and professional RL in south wales and London.

If your not receptive to facts and keep making up fantasy what's the point?

[The Parksider]

Are you sure that, pound for pound, London produces many more pro playes than Leigh.

The odd Leigh born lad is in the first teams of SL clubs and there are several London lads.

The professional conveyor belt in London is reported as growing.

Viking Warrior who is a amateur coach reported Leigh East and Miners are struggling for kids.

Make of that what you will I don't care. Maybe you will extrapolate from that that Leigh should have a SL franchise now and London should be banned from playing RL.

[The Parksider]

Hardly the kind of evidence to convince many.  Lewis, finger on the pulse, really?  His guess is no better than yours.

He ran the game he had the kind of insights to the game I'd die for. To make that statement Larry flies in the face of reality. Lewis had access to all the facts and finances and opinions of the top sports people in general and including all the chairmen of the game itself, SKY and major sponsors.

You have to ask yourself where would this game have gone if say Branson had bankrolled London fully through to today, If the people in Paris who could have made a go of it had decided to do so, and if South Wales investors had got on board with Crusaders.

I'll tell you where, onwards and upwards with new fans in their tens of thousands and new streams of top players and the chance to revive international RL in the northern hemisphere and attract new sponsors.

To hear people on here rail against France, Wales and London and say how Sheffield, leigh and Halifax are "well run" "profitable" and will make great additions to Superleague when in reality they were all "basket cases x 10" is beyond belief.

Maybe RL's worst enemy is some of it's own supporters?

Edited June 6, 2013 by The Parksider

[keighley]

The Closes virtually bankrupted themselves to keep the club going, they are heroes for what they did and the commitment they gave. 

 

The idea that London in the championship is good for the club is farcical. That idea won't be popular with some on here that think that all clubs in Lancashire or Yorkshire should get priority over any 1980s out of town upstarts. I would give a London owner free reign to do as he pleases cap wise or other wise. I would also provide a direct subsidy above the usual SL cut.

 

I will be able to hear the howls of mprotest emanating from Wigan in the farthest corners of the earth if you did any such thing. The track record so far suggests that even if you did, London would still struggle remember Branson and Marantra. How did those investor supports work out in making London the success you think it will become if once again they get more funding.t

[keighley]

Got the viewing figures for comparison?

 

One game a season only? I think not. 

 

London's games are also broadcast on the radio by the way.

 

 l

It used to be a double header with the st div/SL final so the viewing figures would have been quite decent. How many of London s home games do Sky show. If it s more than one or two I ll be amazed and theyt are always on a Saturday with the lowesr viewing figures of the Sky coverage.

[thirteenthman]

I was around when they made Old Trafford and it was after the Closes had relinquished control. That season the RFL had been running the Crusaders until around Easter time when Brisbane Broncos bought the club. And I remember the game well, one sunday afternoon as a curtain raiser. It still didn't do anything for the club or its profile. Nor did the Brisbane ownership. The club finally started to gain some attention when SL was announced and London were allotted a place. 

 

Go back to the second tier and the club will completely disappear from the public eye. 

 

Found this article from just prior to that Old Trafford final:-

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-league-london-lose-their-innocence-on-their-last-crusade-dave-hadfield-on-the-metamorphosis-taking-place-after-tomorrows-second-division-premiership-final-1437378.html

 

Interesting to read the quotes about talk of the Broncos 'investing heavily in top British players', something the club has always struggled to do, and the 'fanciful' talk of playing at Wembley within 5 years. But the article does confirm that the club were as close as they ever got to going out of business.