The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Padge]

Absolutely and I do enjoy readying the stats you put up, it does read as though the average gate at 2nd tier clubs has dropped since licensing was introduced, but still nowhere near as low as some would suggest.

But what caused the massive downward trend from 1980 to 1987, bigger than anything since SL. [Lobby mode] P&R was obviously killing clubs, dramatic reductions in attendance during P&R prove it.[/Lobby Mode]

[Dave T]

But what caused the massive downward trend from 1980 to 1987, bigger than anything since SL. [Lobby mode] P&R was obviously killing clubs, dramatic reductions in attendance during P&R prove it.[/Lobby Mode]

Was looking at some stats on rlstats the other day and I was actually pretty shocked looking at the figures during the 80's. I only started watching in around '86 and was young so they all seemed like big crowds to me, but the reality is I was usually in a ground holding 3-5k.

 

If we get a crowd like that now in the Cup people are calling to scrap it.

[Lobbygobbler]

Was looking at some stats on rlstats the other day and I was actually pretty shocked looking at the figures during the 80's. I only started watching in around '86 and was young so they all seemed like big crowds to me, but the reality is I was usually in a ground holding 3-5k.

If we get a crowd like that now in the Cup people are calling to scrap it.

Crowds were big in the 80s. Do you really think the stated crowds were accurate though? There was absolutely no reason to state a big crowd due to tax -plus no threat from union.

unless it was a major game for records, eg Wigan v Manly

[Padge]

Crowds were big in the 80s. Do you really think the stated crowds were accurate though? There was absolutely no reason to state a big crowd due to tax -plus no threat from union.

unless it was a major game for records, eg Wigan v Manly

 

Oh FFS, bring me evidence that every crowd every week at every club was deliberately understated so that club officials could deliberately flout tax laws and be allowed to continually get away with it.

 

Has one club official been quoted as saying this is what we did and how we did it and the rest were doing the same, you are brandishing all club officials at all clubs as crooks with these continual unfounded allegations of tax evasion.

 

Either put forward credible proof of this widespread tax evasion or shut up.

[nadera78]

A few years back, Wire were poorly supported, yet now we are strong enough. A few years back, Souths were so weak, they were kicked out.

 

Things change, cutting clubs off and telling them to just worry about youth development would appear harsh, especially when the standard at the bottom end of SL is so poor. Like I said earlier, if the SL clubs were all out of sight of the top Championship clubs, fair enough, but quite simply they aren't.

Well the worst team in SL this year, and possibly the worst London team I've ever seen, comfortably beat the second ranked team in the Championship tonight. And, despite the wailing on the Sheffield-London thread, it was a comfortable victory.

[Terry Mullaney]

Well the worst team in SL this year, and possibly the worst London team I've ever seen, comfortably beat the second ranked team in the Championship tonight. And, despite the wailing on the Sheffield-London thread, it was a comfortable victory.

What about last season's Challenge cup? Who knocked out Cas? What division do they play in?

[Lobbygobbler]

Well the worst team in SL this year, and possibly the worst London team I've ever seen, comfortably beat the second ranked team in the Championship tonight. And, despite the wailing on the Sheffield-London thread, it was a comfortable victory.

How many overseas players do the Broncos have. Sheffield are allowed 1

Soward was brought in after the comp started -is that fair? Sheffield would have exceeded the cap to get him so your argument is complete cack.

[Lobbygobbler]

Oh FFS, bring me evidence that every crowd every week at every club was deliberately understated so that club officials could deliberately flout tax laws and be allowed to continually get away with it.

Has one club official been quoted as saying this is what we did and how we did it and the rest were doing the same, you are brandishing all club officials at all clubs as crooks with these continual unfounded allegations of tax evasion.

Either put forward credible proof of this widespread tax evasion or shut up.

Are you saying crowds were very accurate in the 80s

[nadera78]

How many overseas players do the Broncos have. Sheffield are allowed 1

Soward was brought in after the comp started -is that fair? Sheffield would have exceeded the cap to get him so your argument is complete cack.

Hang on, the suggestion was that there was no significant gap between bottom SL and top Championship. On tonight's evident there clearly is.

[Dave T]

Well the worst team in SL this year, and possibly the worst London team I've ever seen, comfortably beat the second ranked team in the Championship tonight. And, despite the wailing on the Sheffield-London thread, it was a comfortable victory.

as you know we dont use on field criteria to select our teams so tonights match isnt that relevant.

[nadera78]

as you know we dont use on field criteria to select our teams so tonights match isnt that relevant.

 

[Padge]

Are you saying crowds were very accurate in the 80s

I'm saying they were a dammed site more accurate than you make out, The Ibrox disater in 1971, the Bradford City fire in 1985 and finally Hillsborough in 1989 all saw a very much more stringent set of regulations regarding safety, responsibility and accuracy of attendances.

 

Post me the evidence that there was flagrant, at all clubs, flouting of regulations and criminal tax evasion.

[Ackydave]

no they didn't

they had no choice

 

although they did vote for the new system

 

FFS not shafted again.

 

the victim cul;ture seems to have a life of its own.

I'm simply too weary to argue with you. All I can say is Get a reality check. I'm no bloody victim! I'm weary of the attacks you make. I'm weary of the state of the game, a game which is so good it can't even get a main sponsor for it's flagship competition. A game that's so good it can't promote itself. I'm sick to death of the endless facts and figures being produced on here to prove many of the Championship clubs will never, ever make it in the "elite."

I'm weary of people coming on here and banging on about how we shouldn't moan and how we should talk up the game. It gets hard when you're told there's no future for the club you support. I talk up the achievements of my club. I'm proud of my club! I don't need you to keep on telling me that I'm just a fervent traditionalist supporting a team from a pit village with no future. I'm no parochial supporter. I'd love to see the game played at the highest level all over the country. The reality is that we are no NRL. We are no NFL.

[D9000]

Those various attendance stats tell me mostly what small potatoes RL is (Brisbane apart), in a global sporting context. And it does rather back up my fear that Super League just wasn't super enough. Yes indeed, top flight crowds have risen in the SL era, and a good thing too, well done to all concerned, but have they risen enough? The annual SL average is still below 10,000, and no club can pull 20,000 a week. Is that enough to base an elite pro sport on?

 

Cutting salaries was mentioned earlier. I think it might have to come to that: this would mean more British players defecting to NRL (maybe not an entirely bad thing) or, worse, defecting to RU.

 

I'm not sure I buy the case for elite clubs mopping up all the former small-town supporters, either: I don't think our top teams are sufficiently glamorous to tap massive support outside their local area. Even in soccer that really only happens with giants like Juventus or Real Madrid. (Yes, obviously, there will be some who travel from afar - even Torquay United have a London fanclub - but I reckon this is more likely to be hundreds rather than thousands).

 

Now I have to go and lie down to recover from the shock of Parky agreeing with me. That's my street-cred blown.

[The Parksider]

Has anyone actually got the stats that Championship attendances have gone down? Is it not taken into considerartion the promotion of relatively well supported Cas and Widnes in recent years?

 

Rothmans 94/5  Top division 5543  the rest 1368

Gillette      2012 Top division 9431  the rest 943

 

Those figures are surely good enough to accept?

 

When you quote Widnes and Castleford as "championship clubs" don't forget they were also Superleague clubs just before they changed status after relegation and they became Superleague clubs again and are such today.

 

So you can agonise over the details of any stats, but it seems loud and clear that less people are interested in second tier RL and more in Elite by a "mile".

 

Now is that a country mile or a four minute mile??

[bobbruce]

I'm simply too weary to argue with you. All I can say is Get a reality check. I'm no bloody victim! I'm weary of the attacks you make. I'm weary of the state of the game, a game which is so good it can't even get a main sponsor for it's flagship competition. A game that's so good it can't promote itself. I'm sick to death of the endless facts and figures being produced on here to prove many of the Championship clubs will never, ever make it in the "elite."

I'm weary of people coming on here and banging on about how we shouldn't moan and how we should talk up the game. It gets hard when you're told there's no future for the club you support. I talk up the achievements of my club. I'm proud of my club! I don't need you to keep on telling me that I'm just a fervent traditionalist supporting a team from a pit village with no future. I'm no parochial supporter. I'd love to see the game played at the highest level all over the country. The reality is that we are no NRL. We are no NFL.

From what I've seen most reasonable posters havent said anything like that. They have been saying that Fev had done enough to gain themselves a licence. It would of been well earned and would of given them three years security to try to establish themselves in SL. Now as someone else has pointed out the best the can hope for is to win promotion in 2016 or 17. I fear by then all their momentum will have stopped

[The Parksider]

I'm simply too weary to argue with you.  It gets hard when you're told there's no future for the club you support.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "no future". Only Leeds, Wigan Hull and possibly Catalans have a "future" in the sense of being big clubs per se. Anyone can be a big club with a sugar daddy in tow, and Rovers have Mr. Nahaboo in tow.

[Padge]

Those various attendance stats tell me mostly what small potatoes RL is (Brisbane apart), in a global sporting context. And it does rather back up my fear that Super League just wasn't super enough. Yes indeed, top flight crowds have risen in the SL era, and a good thing too, well done to all concerned, but have they risen enough? The annual SL average is still below 10,000, and no club can pull 20,000 a week. Is that enough to base an elite pro sport on?

 

Cutting salaries was mentioned earlier. I think it might have to come to that: this would mean more British players defecting to NRL (maybe not an entirely bad thing) or, worse, defecting to RU.

 

I'm not sure I buy the case for elite clubs mopping up all the former small-town supporters, either: I don't think our top teams are sufficiently glamorous to tap massive support outside their local area. Even in soccer that really only happens with giants like Juventus or Real Madrid. (Yes, obviously, there will be some who travel from afar - even Torquay United have a London fanclub - but I reckon this is more likely to be hundreds rather than thousands).

 

Now I have to go and lie down to recover from the shock of Parky agreeing with me. That's my street-cred blown.

 

But clubs all ready do draw support from outside of their 'area'., to say they don't just isn't accepting the reality. If this isn't tue the Fev had better pack in their SL ambitions because if they don't pull in people from outside they are doomed in SL. 

[The Parksider]

From what I've seen most reasonable posters havent said anything like that.

 

You beat me to it and win a ceegar...

[sweaty craiq]

How many overseas players do the Broncos have. Sheffield are allowed 1

Soward was brought in after the comp started -is that fair? Sheffield would have exceeded the cap to get him so your argument is complete cack.

Sheffield probably have more than London these days, I can think of 5

[D9000]

But clubs all ready do draw support from outside of their 'area'., to say they don't just isn't accepting the reality. If this isn't tue the Fev had better pack in their SL ambitions because if they don't pull in people from outside they are doomed in SL. 

Thousands, though? I'm not getting into the argument as to whether Fev deserve to be in/get the chance to be in SL or not, but I can't believe they would ever pull a weekly crowd big enough to sustain them in a fully pro league.

[The Parksider]

I'm not getting into the argument as to whether Fev deserve to be in/get the chance to be in SL or not, but I can't believe they would ever pull a weekly crowd big enough to sustain them in a fully pro league.

 

Your only 126 posts old, there's been a concensus amongst most on here including Rovers fans that they would probably average 5,000 in Superleague with Widnes being a good guide.

 

But the counter argument to that was that Rovers Faisal Nahaboo has committed to spending up to full cap year on year.

 

In such cases attendances don't really matter much.

[D9000]

I've been reading TRL for a lot longer than that, Parky. Anyway, my point was that Fev are never going to attract the necessary thousands from elsewhere to keep a fully pro club afloat ... of that 5,000 I suspect about 80 per cent of the home support would hail from Featherstone and Pontefract and the villages about. Can't see many making an exodus from Dewsbury or Batley to he bright lights of Post Office Road.

 

Sugar daddies are another thing entirely, but I've already pointed out the transient nature of those.

[jpmc]

Rothmans 94/5  Top division 5543  the rest 1368

Gillette      2012 Top division 9431  the rest 943

 

Those figures are surely good enough to accept?

 

When you quote Widnes and Castleford as "championship clubs" don't forget they were also Superleague clubs just before they changed status after relegation and they became Superleague clubs again and are such today.

 

So you can agonise over the details of any stats, but it seems loud and clear that less people are interested in second tier RL and more in Elite by a "mile".

 

Now is that a country mile or a four minute mile??

Only a 4k increase after 18 years seems very dissapointing considering all the advantages that sky tv have given

[keighley]

Only a 4k increase after 18 years seems very dissapointing considering all the advantages that sky tv have given

And falling like a stone this season.