The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Lobbygobbler]

The introduction of a second and third tier in 2003, providing promotion and relegation in the championship divisions devastated crowds why wasn't there a massive surge in interest in the championship with this extra dimension of P&R being introduced.

There was no change to the promotion to SL:

-1 up 1 down is more restrictive and offers less hope,, 2 up and down is better

-the large parachute payment meant that the relegated team had a big advantage especially with 1up and 1down. For example Huddersfield retained a full team squad. This caused resentment and needs amending this time around. A fairer system would be that any contracts are null or transferred (to avoid financial problems), and the relegated team is at the same level as other clubs (this will be needed anyhow if the second tier now has a salary cap).

-most clubs had poor stadia. Not the case now

-no tv contract

I think things can really improve. Even going to third tier games will become more attractive psycologically as you know your team does not have a locked trapdoor above it after promotion to the second tier

Edited July 13, 2013 by Lobbygobbler

[Dave T]

Can you lot not keep it down, the Rugby's on!

[Ponterover]

I doubt that will happen. The top Championship clubs might get an extra 1,500 through the gates but that is hardly a game changer. Also those 1,500 people would already be rugby league diehards. That is not growing the game.

 

So a 50% uplift in crowds is not growing the game.

 

How can they be die hards?  If they were die hards, they'd already be there, by definition.

 

A paying customer is a paying customer, whether they be new to the game or a returning "lapsed" supporter.

 

I'm not sure that you thought that statement through

[Duff Duff]

Attracting a few thousand people to watch the Championship in Leigh, Halifax and Featherstone is not growing the game. Establishing competitive and viable Super League teams in Wales, London and Toulouse is. 

 

There is a World of difference. The top Championship clubs that would be line to be promoted are in geographical places which are already in the catchment areas of current Super League clubs. 

[Ian (Pencil) Elliott]

You can continue to make things up if you like, or you can read what's been said by BlaKe Solly. Both the RFL and clubs admit licencing is better than the previous system. You can ignore that all you like but it's a fact, straight from the horses mouth.

 

Now, what was that about living in cloud cuckoo land?

The RFL are hardly going to turn around and say when we introduced licencing we dropped one mighty clanger are they.

Licencing didn't work, if it did then it would still be here. Back to the cuckoo's nest you go.

[Ian (Pencil) Elliott]

I have no problem with subjectivity, provided it is logically thought out and the conclusion that some one comes to is offered as opinion and not, as often happens on here, as fact.

 

You also have the other problem of people quoting top of the head stats as facts and then when they are shown to be completely wrong with factual based evidence refuse to accept it and declare that the figures have been falsified in the past and so are not valid.

Padge the big thing with stats for attendances is that they can easily be manipulated. For example my brother sometimes watches Wakefield and he can't see where they get the crowd figures from. He thinks there is probably only a slight improvement yet the gates announced have another 3k on top.

Even the crowds announced at our games sometimes amaze me. Hard to judge because of the ground developments but sometimes it does not feel like a 2k± crowd is there.

One more example is the massive attendance a few years back by Halifax when they played Batley, I think it was up 70℅. So my opinion is that in the world of licencing clubs are better announcing good crowds. In the 80's it did not matter what was announced.

[Padge]

There was no change to the promotion to SL:

-1 up 1 down is more restrictive and offers less hope,, 2 up and down is better

-the large parachute payment meant that the relegated team had a big advantage especially with 1up and 1down. For example Huddersfield retained a full team squad. This caused resentment and needs amending this time around. A fairer system would be that any contracts are null or transferred (to avoid financial problems), and the relegated team is at the same level as other clubs (this will be needed anyhow if the second tier now has a salary cap).

-most clubs had poor stadia. Not the case now

-no tv contract

I think things can really improve. Even going to third tier games will become more attractive psycologically as you know your team does not have a locked trapdoor above it after promotion to the second tier

Your theory is that promotion and relegation increases crowds, promotion and relegation was introduced in the championship in 2003 and it has been a disaster for championship clubs. Look at the charts I posted, every time P&R is introduced by having three divisions it decimates attendances at the lower levels. Nowhere do those charts show a change in P&R depressing attendances.

[gingerjon]

The RFL are hardly going to turn around and say when we introduced licencing we dropped one mighty clanger are they.

Licencing didn't work, if it did then it would still be here. Back to the cuckoo's nest you go.

 

So the RFL are admitting that the system doesn't work?

 

We can therefore also assume that dropping P&R was an admission that that wasn't working.

[YCKonstantine]

Bbc just mentioned 2up 2 down as an option. Awesome - that would take the sting out of relegation compared to 1up 1down.

I really do think/hope crowds in the championship could improve massively. Also that tv contact for the lower tiers should be worth much more

I believe the line was "2 teams promoted and relegated." As in 1 up 1 down. 1+1=2

[oldrover]

So the RFL are admitting that the system doesn't work?

 

We can therefore also assume that dropping P&R was an admission that that wasn't working.

the difference being, they have now had chance to compare the two, and seem to be leaning towards p&r. hey ho.

[Lobbygobbler]

Attracting a few thousand people to watch the Championship in Leigh, Halifax and Featherstone is not growing the game. Establishing competitive and viable Super League teams in Wales, London and Toulouse is.

There is a World of difference. The top Championship clubs that would be line to be promoted are in geographical places which are already in the catchment areas of current Super League clubs.

There will be other clubs inc the Cumbian clubs and the expansion clubs getting several thousand like Cru. Going from several hundred to several thousand will be a success.

In this system I would also hope to have a Welsh team and Toulouse in SL. I think a Welsh team who makes it via p&r will be better supported than via licensing. Always best to go up on the crest of a wave

[Bostik Bailey]

Ok I've not read the thirty odd pages of this but, it seams funny that franchising was seen as the solution, so all the Lancashire clubs invested in new grounds, only Hull and Hudds play out of a modern stadium on the dark side of the country. So when franchising would result in Wakefield HKR Cas And Bradford not making it into the top league we move the goal posts so the (west) Yorkshire mafia can rule again.

What's the betting the Widnes get bumped down again just so we can all enjoy the old style charm of bell vue and he quaint exposure that new craven park provides again.

This is a decision made to keep certain clubs in the big sky payout. This is corruption. In 2014 London will get all the dodgy decision to keep them up.

If they allow London to go then fine, lets expand into SW France a true heartland. But I suspect that this will be contrived to get the correct geographical mix.

[The Parksider]

You have to understand one thing about the sort of figures you are quoting and that is what happens to averages when the lower tier splits into two. There is a disproportionate fall in the average for the lowest tier, look at the charts I have posted in the past it shows it quite clearly. When you make these claims you must factor in the effects of having two or three divisions has.

 

Yes I understand. The figures which are spot on, were merely to underline how badly Championship clubs have fared in the SL era on a simple "this is what they used to get" and "this is what they get now" comparison. Reasons for the drop are of course more complex, and slipping into the "league of death" is a major factor, but I detect at times that people don't realise just how much CC clubs businesses have shrunk, and SL clubs have grown.

 

In answer to another question yes SL clubs gates have grown the most at the top but most of the lower clubs have bigger gates than 1995 when Widnes got 4086, Wakefield 3438, Bradford 5654 Castleford 5090.

 

Thank you again for all your hard work on the stats.

[Padge]

Yes I understand. The figures which are spot on, were merely to underline how badly Championship clubs have fared in the SL era on a simple "this is what they used to get" and "this is what they get now" comparison. Reasons for the drop are of course more complex, and slipping into the "league of death" is a major factor, but I detect at times that people don't realise just how much CC clubs businesses have shrunk, and SL clubs have grown.

 

In answer to another question yes SL clubs gates have grown the most at the top but most of the lower clubs have bigger gates than 1995 when Widnes got 4086, Wakefield 3438, Bradford 5654 Castleford 5090.

 

Thank you again for all your hard work on the stats.

 

What do you make of the fact that from the start of SL championship clubs' aggregate attendances were growing in line with the SL clubs growth and the slump occurred, not with changes in P&R between the top and second tier and not when licensing was introduced, but when the decision was made to introduce a third division. The exact same slump can be seen in 91/92 and 95/96 and recovery is just as stark when the championship returns to one division.

 

Supporters of championship clubs are chasing the wrong bogey man.

[JohnM]

Padge the big thing with stats for attendances is that they can easily be manipulated. For example my brother sometimes watches Wakefield and he can't see where they get the crowd figures from. He thinks there is probably only a slight improvement yet the gates announced have another 3k on top.

Even the crowds announced at our games sometimes amaze me. Hard to judge because of the ground developments but sometimes it does not feel like a 2k± crowd is there.

One more example is the massive attendance a few years back by Halifax when they played Batley, I think it was up 70℅. So my opinion is that in the world of licencing clubs are better announcing good crowds. In the 80's it did not matter what was announced.

 

For example my brother sometimes watches Wakefield and he can't see where they get the crowd figures from. He thinks there is probably only a slight improvement yet the gates announced have another 3k on top.

 

Allegations of fraud are pretty serious things. I trust your brother can back this up?  If this is in fact true, how will Featherstone be any different  when they get awarded a SuperLeague licence. Maybe with a good accountant? 

[Padge]

Padge the big thing with stats for attendances is that they can easily be manipulated. For example my brother sometimes watches Wakefield and he can't see where they get the crowd figures from. He thinks there is probably only a slight improvement yet the gates announced have another 3k on top.

Even the crowds announced at our games sometimes amaze me. Hard to judge because of the ground developments but sometimes it does not feel like a 2k± crowd is there.

One more example is the massive attendance a few years back by Halifax when they played Batley, I think it was up 70℅. So my opinion is that in the world of licencing clubs are better announcing good crowds. In the 80's it did not matter what was announced.

 

If your brother only sometimes watches Wakefield how is he such a superb guesser of what the attendance is there.

 

What you are claiming is that all the management of all the clubs are involved in a conspiracy to avoid tax, They are also involved in a blatant disregard of the Safety at Sports Grounds Act and probably all sorts of Fire Regulations and Health and Safety Regulations. I suggest you hand over the names of all those involved in this criminal activity immediately to the police along with all your evidence. These people should be in jail.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Padge

[Padge]

To those that claim the figures are manipulated by clubs, think about this, ignore the actual numbers, just look at the trends. Look at cause and effect. 

 

You may not like what the figures show you but the bare facts are there for you to see.

 

The SL clubs didn't ask for the championship to be split into two divisions.

[Raider94]

Haven't read the full 30+ pages so this question might have already been asked, but what happens to the clubs that dont get chosen to be in the 24? Will there be a division below with p+r between the 2nd and 3rd division, or will the rfl just let these clubs waste away?

[Ian (Pencil) Elliott]

If your brother only sometimes watches Wakefield how is he such a superb guesser of what the attendance is there.

 

What you are claiming is that all the management of all the clubs are involved in a conspiracy to avoid tax, They are also involved in a blatant disregard of the Safety at Sports Grounds Act and probably all sorts of Fire Regulations and Health and Safety Regulations. I suggest you hand over the names of all those involved in this criminal activity immediately to the police along with all your evidence. These people should be in jail.

Get a grip padge, the only thing clubs are guilty of his exaggerating crowd figures in order to lie and get a licence. If you attend a venue on a few occasions you can easily have an idea about the size of the crowd. I don't think the tax man gives a stuff about crowd figures and only cares about what money the club is actually taking.

[Ian (Pencil) Elliott]

If this is in fact true, how will Featherstone be any different  when they get awarded a SuperLeague licence. Maybe with a good accountant? 

Many clubs lied to get a licence last time, in order for us to get a licence then maybe we need to play the same game.

Doesn't really matter anyway anymore because the licence system will be out of the way soon.

[Gav Wilson]

Haven't read the full 30+ pages so this question might have already been asked, but what happens to the clubs that dont get chosen to be in the 24? Will there be a division below with p+r between the 2nd and 3rd division, or will the rfl just let these clubs waste away?

 

There will be P&R from Championship 1 as normal.

[JohnM]

Just because Fev  do it does not mean that other clubs will. You are making some pretty serious allegations that you cannot back up. Lying doesn't matter?  What a life value you have!

[Ian (Pencil) Elliott]

Just because Fev  do it does not mean that other clubs will. You are making some pretty serious allegations that you cannot back up. Lying doesn't matter?  What a life value you have!

You and Padge need to get a grip, serious allegations my god man grow up.

Attendance figures have always been inflated and reduced to suit, no I can't back this up but if you think that it has never gone on then you are another living in cloud cuckoo land.

[Bomballey]

As a spectator this is great news IMO.

Soon we'll have a very exciting Championship with the ultimate prize of promotion at the end.

I know there are lots of people not happy with the decision and it may well be very detrimental to some clubs but you can't beat P&R for excitement come the end of the season.

I hope the supporters of all second tier clubs (whoever they may be) turn out in numbers and make the championship an exciting even competition where we're all fighting to go up.

IMO the best way to expand the game is to make it exciting and interesting. At the moment i don't think it is and these changes are a step in the right direction. We need to make it very popular in the heartlands before we can expand further. I live in Pontefract and don't know anyone who likes or watches RL apart from my dad (and that's cas, wake, fev leeds or anyone). Surely we need to make it very popular along the M62 again before we worry to much about expanding – I do think another french team would be good if viable though.....they seem to really like it down there.

I think the only way this is a backward step is if the 2nd tier just gets forgotten about again...........it's up to the RFL and the supporters to make sure it doesn't.

I for one will be telling all my soccer mad mates that P&R is back and it's not "pointless" anymore and there is something to play for and they've not no excuse not to get back down to Post Office Road!!!!

Spot on. Nailed it. The more exciting the game, the more people will come

[Guest]

Spot on. Nailed it. The more exciting the game, the more people will come

Exactly. Surely The whole point of sport is competition and that includes both promotion and relegation or what's the point. We must look to strengthen the lower leagues so that when a team is relegated from the top tier the league below is appealing to fans and has a clear unrestricted pathway back to the top tier.