The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Padge]

well it's regressive literaly since it will lead to the way things were in the past

 

but regressive also in terms of it being a victory for the forces of reaction.

 

I can't recall that happening before.

 

London are a good bet for the chop in 2015 along with perhaps castleford

 

all it will take will be a poor season for Catalan, and they will follow and we're all tucked back into our sporting backwater, which I'm sure will make a lot of people happy

 

knurr and spell here we come.

Cas are definitely for the chop, where they at the George Hotel. proof positive they are not fit for RL's elite.

 

They should be replaced by Broughton Rangers.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Cas are definitely for the chop, where they at the George Hotel. proof positive they are not fit for RL's elite.

 

They should be replaced by Broughton Rangers.

sounds good

but wont that exclude one or two clubs from replacing them

it would be unfair and unjust, we must protest

[Padge]

sounds good

but wont that exclude one or two clubs from replacing them

it would be unfair and unjust, we must protest

I'll organise a march up the high street, do you know any minor celebs who may want to make a name for themselves rallying the troops?

[JohnM]

Let's go back to basics

 

From the RFL:  Super League will feature 12 teams from the 2015 season after Rugby League’s elite clubs agreed to a key change to the structure of their competition. At their Annual General Meeting in Bradford, the Super League clubs ruled out the option of reducing from 14 teams to 10 in 2015 and asked the RFL Executive to investigate two options around a 12-team competition. One option involves a 12-team Super League running in tandem with a 12-team Championship which after 23 rounds split into three qualifying play-off groups, each comprising eight clubs. The other option is for two divisions of 12 with a more traditional style of promotion and relegation between the two competitions. The debate forms part of the consultation process around the RFL’s ongoing Policy Review, one aim of which is to determine a league structure that is viable, commercially appealing and attractive to the public, broadcasters and sponsors alike. Super League Chief Executive Nigel Wood said: “The clubs engaged in a robust and frank debate about the future of their competition and gave their full support to the RFL Executive in our search for the most compelling league structure. “It’s apparent that there is a strong and widespread desire to deliver a really exciting league season that provides well-run clubs at all levels of the game with opportunities to flourish, succeed and make progress.“Our task now is to drill down into the details of a range of issues such as minimum standards, financial distributions and the various mechanics around promotion and relegation.” The Super League clubs rejected the option of remaining as a 14-team competition at a meeting last month and will convene in the coming weeks once the RFL Executive has delivered its report into the 12-team Super League options.

 

I've read and re-read this and I cannot see anything that says licencing has gone.

 

I've read and re-read this an I cannot see anything that indicates that P and R will return. it does  mention an option for  "a more traditional style of promotion and relegation between the two competitions"

 

The only definitive statement is that SL WILL contain 12 teams.

 

There is a lot of work to do yet to define any new structure and then get agreement to it. It may be that those on here who advocate P and R between see it introduced but it is not certain. 

[JohnM]

Just read the press release again for me if you can hold back the tears, P and R will soon be back. Deny it if you want but licensing failed because you, like many were wrong and SL has become stale, boring and predictable.

 

see post #736

[Dave T]

well it's regressive literaly since it will lead to the way things were in the past

 

but regressive also in terms of it being a victory for the forces of reaction.

so in some ways its a value judgement and in others it's a description of what's happening.

 

I can't recall that happening before.

 

London are a good bet for the chop in 2015 along with perhaps castleford

 

all it will take will be a poor season for Catalan, and they will follow and we're all tucked back into our sporting backwater, which I'm sure will make a lot of people happy

 

knurr and spell here we come.

It depends on the real reasons why people have ultimately voted to scrap the current system.

 

It doesn't appear that there is a strong feeling that Licensing has failed, unless they had clear measures that they were going to judge in 4.5 years which would appear slightly too short a period of time.

 

If the judgement has been made that there is a groundswell of opinion from fans, clubs and journalists that lack of P&R is ruining the game, they would probably be right. They also may have decided that the lack of variety and excitement around P&R is a bad thing, and tbh I am inclined to agree.

 

Maybe this isn't just some overnight reactionary decision, but the realisation that we have lost something as a sport that is an emotional and subjective thing rather than based on a spreadsheet or graphs.

 

If the people in charge genuinely believe that we have moved in a direction which is not the best, then I am glad that they are strong enough to review that and if that means it looks like we are regressing, then so be it.

 

I don't think we should be too worried about Catalan.

 

I'm a Wire fan, my club looks pretty safe under any structure, but I must admit that I am sick of the negativity that Licensing brought, and also I do feel we miss something with new clubs not being admitted. I also think some pretty poor clubs have been allowed in by the move to 14. We had standards and just dropped them to get the best 14 in.

 

I don't think it is fair to dismiss anybody who supports the recent changes as backward looking or similar. 

[Padge]

Let's go back to basics

 

From the RFL:  Super League will feature 12 teams from the 2015 season after Rugby League’s elite clubs agreed to a key change to the structure of their competition. At their Annual General Meeting in Bradford, the Super League clubs ruled out the option of reducing from 14 teams to 10 in 2015 and asked the RFL Executive to investigate two options around a 12-team competition. One option involves a 12-team Super League running in tandem with a 12-team Championship which after 23 rounds split into three qualifying play-off groups, each comprising eight clubs. The other option is for two divisions of 12 with a more traditional style of promotion and relegation between the two competitions. The debate forms part of the consultation process around the RFL’s ongoing Policy Review, one aim of which is to determine a league structure that is viable, commercially appealing and attractive to the public, broadcasters and sponsors alike. Super League Chief Executive Nigel Wood said: “The clubs engaged in a robust and frank debate about the future of their competition and gave their full support to the RFL Executive in our search for the most compelling league structure. “It’s apparent that there is a strong and widespread desire to deliver a really exciting league season that provides well-run clubs at all levels of the game with opportunities to flourish, succeed and make progress.“Our task now is to drill down into the details of a range of issues such as minimum standards, financial distributions and the various mechanics around promotion and relegation.” The Super League clubs rejected the option of remaining as a 14-team competition at a meeting last month and will convene in the coming weeks once the RFL Executive has delivered its report into the 12-team Super League options.

 

I've read and re-read this and I cannot see anything that says licencing has gone.

 

I've read and re-read this an I cannot see anything that indicates that P and R will return. it does  mention an option for  "a more traditional style of promotion and relegation between the two competitions"

 

The only definitive statement is that SL WILL contain 12 teams.

 

There is a lot of work to do yet to define any new structure and then get agreement to it. It may be that those on here who advocate P and R between see it introduced but it is not certain. 

Thanks John, this goes back to my quote that nobody has said automatic P&R has returned,, a lot of people are reading things (not unusual) that are not there. P&R has never gone away despite a few disgruntled fans for ever whinging that it has, it is just under different rules.

 

The RFL have been strong under previous management. they are now showing themselves to be extremely weak, and the last thing we need now is a governing body that bows to reactionary self serving minority who shout loud and give nothing.

[Dave T]

Thanks John, this goes back to my quote that nobody has said automatic P&R has returned,, a lot of people are reading things (not unusual) that are not there. P&R has never gone away despite a few disgruntled fans for ever whinging that it has, it is just under different rules.

 

The RFL have been strong under previous management. they are now showing themselves to be extremely weak, and the last thing we need now is a governing body that bows to reactionary self serving minority who shout loud and give nothing.

Do you know that this is a minority that want these changes? If so how, as in evidence - not attendance charts, as some people will watch no matter what.

[The Parksider]

It depends on the real reasons why people have ultimately voted to scrap the current system. It doesn't appear that there is a strong feeling that Licensing has failed, unless they had clear measures that they were going to judge in 4.5 years which would appear slightly too short a period of time.

 

Licensing was about ensuring London. Crusaders and Catalans weren't relegated but could have the time to build.

 

Licensing was about ensuring clubs weren't just promoted because they had won a load of semi professional games, but that clubs had "standards" beyond this and could also build as SL clubs rather than yo-yo back down.

 

As per League Express 2009

 

Catalans were a success by this measure - they built.

 

Crusaders (bust), Salford (nearly bust), Bradford (bust) Wakefield (bust) were failures.

 

HKR, Cas, Widnes (chairmen declared no more investment from them) are failures.

 

London (crowds rock bottom as are the club) failures.

 

One success and eight failures is equivalent to half the league failing under licensing.

 

Wether "licensing" has failed or wether "clubs have failed under licensing" seems irrelevant.

 

What Ralph Rimmer and Richard Lewis set up to "work" did not work as far as I can see?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

It depends on the real reasons why people have ultimately voted to scrap the current system.

It doesn't appear that there is a strong feeling that Licensing has failed, unless they had clear measures that they were going to judge in 4.5 years which would appear slightly too short a period of time.

If the judgement has been made that there is a groundswell of opinion from fans, clubs and journalists that lack of P&R is ruining the game, they would probably be right. They also may have decided that the lack of variety and excitement around P&R is a bad thing, and tbh I am inclined to agree.

Maybe this isn't just some overnight reactionary decision, but the realisation that we have lost something as a sport that is an emotional and subjective thing rather than based on a spreadsheet or graphs.

If the people in charge genuinely believe that we have moved in a direction which is not the best, then I am glad that they are strong enough to review that and if that means it looks like we are regressing, then so be it.

I don't think we should be too worried about Catalan.

I'm a Wire fan, my club looks pretty safe under any structure, but I must admit that I am sick of the negativity that Licensing brought, and also I do feel we miss something with new clubs not being admitted. I also think some pretty poor clubs have been allowed in by the move to 14. We had standards and just dropped them to get the best 14 in.

I don't think it is fair to dismiss anybody who supports the recent changes as backward looking or similar.

Whatever the reasons the decision will have been taken in good faith by people who's job it is. I respect that.

I'm not dismissing anyone. I just think that they are reactionary and self serving. It's what I think after reading and listening to the views if such people for years

[JohnM]

I don't think it will cause John any major problems,

 

 

Quite right.  My main concern is for the fans, sponsors and benefactors who have been sold a dream of great things for their clubs. For too long, clubs have poured other peoples money into grand schemes to join the elite, only to lose every penny and thus ending up worse off than they started.  This has been the story of too many clubs over the years and I do genuinely worry that it will happen again. Featherstone seem to be doing it right and good luck to them but I fear that instead of genuine growth, we will see cannibalisation of Wakefield and Cas future fans, and funds.

[Padge]

Do you know that this is a minority that want these changes? If so how, as in evidence - not attendance charts, as some people will watch no matter what.

I have no problem with saying its conjecture on my part, and I am open to be refuted on my assertions.

 

I only see a few individuals from a few small clubs complaining, I don't see a mass groundswell of opinion from a lot of clubs clamoring for change.

 

I may be right or wrong, but I will be more than happy to bow to anyone that shows me that the majority of RL fans want the changes proposed.

 

I am willing to state that i have opinions that are there to be challenged but when I post facts I would like them to be challenged by facts and not opinions.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I'll organise a march up the high street, do you know any minor celebs who may want to make a name for themselves rallying the troops?

I can feel the tears of the Calder welling up as untapped this out on my i phone

[Padge]

I can feel the tears of the Calder welling up as untapped this out on my i phone

Be strong brother be strong

[Terry Mullaney]

Be strong brother be strong

Absolutely! Stick together brothers....I can see it now....The Chucklevision Super League

Edited July 15, 2013 by Terry Mullaney

[JohnM]

With Fev in the leading role.

[Dave T]

I have no problem with saying its conjecture on my part, and I am open to be refuted on my assertions.

I only see a few individuals from a few small clubs complaining, I don't see a mass groundswell of opinion from a lot of clubs clamoring for change.

I may be right or wrong, but I will be more than happy to bow to anyone that shows me that the majority of RL fans want the changes proposed.

I am willing to state that i have opinions that are there to be challenged but when I post facts I would like them to be challenged by facts and not opinions.

fair enough.

Previously I would have agreed that this was a small vocal minority, but as time has passed this view seems to have become more and more the norm.

I found myself having to explain and justify licensing and lack of p&r regularly to plenty of Wire fans, Saints fans, Leeds fans. I know no fans of lower league clubs in real life so it has all been SL fans. This has challenged my way of thinking about this.

[gingerjon]

It's going to be the mid-season 8x3 isn't it?

 

The classic, "Well it's not as bad as the chasm of a drop" to the SL 12 and, "Well, you've got a chance this way..." to the other 12.

 

And an afterthought about what we do about clubs 25 and lower ...

[Griff]

Indeed - and, bearing in mind that there could be seven clubs relegated next year, would you be better getting relegated in 2013, leaving you a better chance of making 2015 in Division Two by winning Division Three in 2014 than by avoiding relegation from Division Two ?

[Dave T]

It's going to be the mid-season 8x3 isn't it?

The classic, "Well it's not as bad as the chasm of a drop" to the SL 12 and, "Well, you've got a chance this way..." to the other 12.

And an afterthought about what we do about clubs 25 and lower ...

they should know their place and appreciate it.

[nadera78]

It's going to be the mid-season 8x3 isn't it?

 

The classic, "Well it's not as bad as the chasm of a drop" to the SL 12 and, "Well, you've got a chance this way..." to the other 12.

 

And an afterthought about what we do about clubs 25 and lower ...

Whatever they go for I give it 2 years before the conversation starts up again. 2015 start date so by the autumn internationals of 2016 we'll be tearing this up and starting again.

 

And this time it might even lead to a fully franchised league rather than a licenced one. So an actual closed shop, as opposed to an imagined one.

Edited July 15, 2013 by nadera78

[Dave T]

Whatever they go for I give it 2 years before the conversation starts up again. 2015 start date so by the autumn internationals of 2016 we'll be tearing this up and starting again.

 

And this time it might even lead to a fully franchised league rather than a licenced one. So an actual closed shop, as opposed to an imagined one.

I'm not so sure. P&R was in there for quite a while, and if we are honest the scrapping of it was hardly something that was clamoured for.

Licensing and scrapping of annual P&R was brought in due to a business idea, which many fans aren't that bothered about ultimately, rightly or wrongly, so whilst the debate will probably rumble on for ever, there have been out and out campaigns for the return of annual P&R where as I don;t think anybody feels that strongly that licensing is 100% the right solution and would campaign for it.

 

Let's be honest, even on here there are all sorts of different ideas from a relatively small group of RL fans:

 

10 div SL

2 x 10 divs, then 6/6/8

12 team SL with P&R

12 team SL with Licensing

2 x 12 team SL with 8/8/8

14 team SL with licensing

14 team SL with P&R

Toulouse in

Toulouse out

Additional funds for expansion teams.

 

This suggests to me that there is no clear right and wrong answer.

[JohnM]

but the game is being played with other peoples hard earned money, be they fans, sponsors, benefactors, Sky viewers or "investors". I trust that there will be a fully worked out justification and model for whatever scheme is arrived at. 

[Dave T]

but the game is being played with other peoples hard earned money, be they fans, sponsors, benefactors, Sky viewers or "investors". I trust that there will be a fully worked out justification and model for whatever scheme is arrived at. 

Because it is all forecasted let's be honest, you can make a business case for all of the scenarios.

 

From a financial point of view, I suspect there is little between most of the options, it is the leap of faith (the crowds will double) or the cynicism (the crowds will half) that people need to make a call one.

[Celtic Rooster]

At last, after all this time - I am finally getting some entertainment out of Super Greed! Shame its nothing to do with what's going on on the pitch!