The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Ackroman]

yes, yes, yes, good contribution. Thanks ever so much.

 

What I was asking is if this is central funding or prize money because it's not exactly clear. The SL clubs are listed as receiving 1.3m, which is what they currently get as central funding. But the Championship clubs' money seems to be listed as prize money. If that's the case then club's won't know what they're getting until the season is over, which makes it difficult for them to plan. As opposed to knowing up front what funding they'll be getting.

 

But hey, you just keep on contributing such diamonds of information, Ackroman. It's truly enlightening.

 

The post made it clear how the money would be distributed and calculated, so by default clubs entering next seasons competitions will know what to plan/aim for.

 

[The Parksider]

How will that work for salary caps then?  I don't really get it.  Will there be the same salary cap as now for SL2?  Will it be variable depending on income and positional prize money?  If it's a single salary cap that allows for a low-end full-time squad, will there be revenue limits to stop clubs over-spending?

Ponterover has probably pitched a sensible level, however I'm more looking at the underlying reason for all this which IMHO has to be opening a half bust Superleague right up and if anyone has the money then come and get it spent. I could not imagine for a moment Mr. Abbott at Halifax, Mr. Nahaboo at Featherstone, or the collective of local government and industry worthies in Toulouse being restricted from spending right up to full cap and beyond.

The salary cap changes do allow for only 50% of income which is protective of the clubs, but there was the rider that if any director wanted to spend his own money beyond this then there was no limit.

Superleague is leaking £8,000,000 a year and Mr. Sadler suggests SKY won't be plugging that gap. I bet inceased attendances don't plug it and so you are left with private investment as the most likely source of big bucks - I don't think there is any way RFL/SLE are going to stop people throwing their own money at the game right up to the cap and as many millions as they want on facilities etc....

[thirteenthman]

What I was asking is if this is central funding or prize money because it's not exactly clear. The SL clubs are listed as receiving 1.3m, which is what they currently get as central funding. But the Championship clubs' money seems to be listed as prize money. If that's the case then club's won't know what they're getting until the season is over, which makes it difficult for them to plan. As opposed to knowing up front what funding they'll be getting.

 

The article I quoted from listed it all under 'central funding', but you're right, funding based on finishing positions is basically prize money, and I really don't know how anyone could plan based on possibly ending up getting 5 times less money than you hope for. What it also does is reinforce and probably widen the gap between the top and bottom clubs in the Championship. And there is also no mention of salary caps.

 

It's worth pointing out that the article does quote Nigel Wood as saying "Our task now is to drill down into the details of a range of issues such as minimum standards, financial distributions and the various mechanics around promotion and relegation". Which suggests that the only thing definite is that SL will have 12 teams in 2015, and yet they're apparently going to make a final decision on it all next month.

[thirteenthman]

What about Championship 1?  Any details on their distribution?  At the very least, the promoted team(s) need the same level of funding as those finishing bottom of the 2nd division.

 

No mention of it - in fact in all the stuff I've read about the restructure I've only read vague references to maybe running C1 on a regional basis, but nothiing definite. Yet, the plan was supposed to be to bring Coventry in next year. If they do that, they'll still only be 14 teams in C1 - hardly enough to split it into regional set ups.

 

When you think that 4 clubs have only just be promoted to make the Championship 14 teams strong to give them more games, and now it's being cut down again to 12, with 4 clubs having to be demoted to C1, it must make life very difficult for clubs in that position to plan long term.

[GeordieSaint]

Both these ideas are truly ridiclous. No security, no guarantee of centralised income to build and develop for Championship clubs, a complete mess of the very good C1 competition, and far more instability in the game. The game is being run by lunatics at both the RFL and club level.

[jpmc]

Both these ideas are truly ridiclous. No security, no guarantee of centralised income to build and develop for Championship clubs, a complete mess of the very good C1 competition, and far more instability in the game. The game is being run by lunatics at both the RFL and club level.

Surely champ 1 would be a much better and stronger league with more clubs in?

[Ponterover]

Surely champ 1 would be a much better and stronger league with more clubs in?

 

There was some mention of a north south split.  I don't think 14 clubs is enough to do this.

 

However, I agree - One competition with 14 clubs will be a big boost to the division.

[GeordieSaint]

Surely champ 1 would be a much better and stronger league with more clubs in?

 

Of course it would be but that isn't the idea. They are talking about splitting it into regions I believe.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Of course it would be but that isn't the idea. They are talking about splitting it into regions I believe.

say it aint so

[a.n Other]

Of course it would be but that isn't the idea. They are talking about splitting it into regions I believe.

Is that a bad thing? Reducing travelling costs of clubs who have small incomes to draw on?

[GeordieSaint]

Is that a bad thing? Reducing travelling costs of clubs who have small incomes to draw on?

 

It is if you are reducing the number of games they play and the competitiveness of the league.

[nadera78]

Mark Aston raises an interesting question on the 12 teams for the Championship, or whatever it will be called. The two relegated SL clubs plus Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Featherstone and Toulouse makes 7. Which are the other 5 clubs capable of living with those 7? He knows far more about that league than I do and he can't see anyone doing it.

[Lobbygobbler]

Mark Aston raises an interesting question on the 12 teams for the Championship, or whatever it will be called. The two relegated SL clubs plus Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Featherstone and Toulouse makes 7. Which are the other 5 clubs capable of living with those 7? He knows far more about that league than I do and he can't see anyone doing it.

Perhaps Barrow and Worky plus Cru and Oldham (if they go up)

[GeordieSaint]

Mark Aston raises an interesting question on the 12 teams for the Championship, or whatever it will be called. The two relegated SL clubs plus Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Featherstone and Toulouse makes 7. Which are the other 5 clubs capable of living with those 7? He knows far more about that league than I do and he can't see anyone doing it.

 

Indicators are many of the people involved in playing and coaching the game are not particularly in favour of these changes but the club hierarchies and the RFL still seem to be pushing them. I can't understand the mindset of the people making the decisions? P&R (1 up 1 down) is one thing but drastically changing the game's structure to a system heavily reliant on funding when we don't have enough in the first place is mind-boggling.

[Scubby]

Would it not just be sensible to itemise clubs as expansion (protected) and standard? 12 teams and 2 up 2 down.

 

12 teams must contain 3 expansion clubs each season (e.g. Toulouse, Catalans, London)

 

If Toulouse or London or Catalans finish in bottom two then only one team will be relegated and one promoted. Do we really want to face the prospect of Toulouse, London and Catalans all potentially dropping down and folding? Imagine if Catalans have a stinker next year and finish in the bottom two. Don't say it can't happen because 3 years ago it did. Ten years of development going t**s up in six months.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Scubby

[GeordieSaint]

Would it not just be sensible to itemise clubs as expansion (protected) and standard? 12 teams and 2 up 2 down.

 

12 teams must contain 3 expansion clubs each season (e.g. Toulouse, Catalans, London)

 

If Toulouse or London or Catalans finish in bottom two then only one team will be relegated and one promoted. Do we really want to face the prospect of Toulouse, London and Catalans all potentially dropping down and folding? Imagine if Catalans have a stinker next year and finish in the bottom two. Don't say it can't happen because 3 years ago it did. Ten years of development going t**s up in six months.

 

The lunatics are running the asylum.

[jpmc]

Would it not just be sensible to itemise clubs as expansion (protected) and standard? 12 teams and 2 up 2 down.

 

12 teams must contain 3 expansion clubs each season (e.g. Toulouse, Catalans, London)

 

If Toulouse or London or Catalans finish in bottom two then only one team will be relegated and one promoted. Do we really want to face the prospect of Toulouse, London and Catalans all potentially dropping down and folding? Imagine if Catalans have a stinker next year and finish in the bottom two. Don't say it can't happen because 3 years ago it did. Ten years of development going t**s up in six months.

Surely the idea of two fully pro leagues is so we can do away with protectionism?

[GeordieSaint]

Surely the idea of two fully pro leagues is so we can do away with protectionism?

 

It is an idea; not a reality. There is nowhere near enough money to sustain to pro-leagues within the game. Where the hell do you also develop the playing strength from either when we can't sustain 14 clubs now, nevermind 24. Simply throwing money at part-time players will not turn them into quality SL players the next season.

 

For the commercial value of the game and to potential TV deals in France, both Catalans and Toulouse must be retained indefinitely in the top division.

[The Parksider]

Mark Aston raises an interesting question on the 12 teams for the Championship, or whatever it will be called. The two relegated SL clubs plus Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Featherstone and Toulouse makes 7. Which are the other 5 clubs capable of living with those 7? He knows far more about that league than I do and he can't see anyone doing it.

Oddly such as Dewsbury, Workington, Whitehaven and Batley live with the likes of them now?

They just lose most of their matches and make up the bottom end of the championship, nothing new in RL.

Mr. Aston assumes the two relegated clubs will be a force. Forced into administration maybe. As for the others it all depends on who actually has the money to make an assault on Superleague. Those who do will pass up into the middle eight comp.

The failures in the SL race will end up living with the 5 small clubs. IMHO there's going to be winners and losers in this mix - there's not going to be 19 strong clubs - haven't we been told the game is short of resources as geordie saint says above.

Besides the bottom 5 in SL2 may still be dual registered with the top 8 SL giants!

Edited July 15, 2013 by The Parksider

[Northern Sol]

Of course it would be but that isn't the idea. They are talking about splitting it into regions I believe.

I'd like to see that but there aren't enough southern clubs at the moment.

 

Before anyone bring up the old "fervent traditionalist" cliche. I'd suggest that they look at the gates that Hemel / Skolars / Oxford get playing each other and how many they get playing Rochdale / Oldham / Crusaders / Gateshead. 

Edited July 15, 2013 by Northern Sol

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I'd like to see that but there aren't enough southern clubs at the moment.

 

Before anyone bring up the old "fervent traditionalist" cliche. I'd suggest that they look at the gates that Hemel / Skolars / Oxford get playing each other and how many they get playing Rochdale / Oldham / Crusaders / Gateshead. 

I see what you mean NS, but we need homogeneity

when these teams joined the comp, especially the new ones they will have budgeted for transport costs, or maybe they all even recieve a subsidy-money well spent.

I think the clubs, again expecially the new ones will have been aware of what their attendances would be-and I think they do remarkably well in their first campaign.

[Ian (Pencil) Elliott]

I am going to leave the debate there for a while but I have enjoyed most of the debating over the weekend. Guess I will never agree with some members but I would like to thank them who can do it without breaking forum rules.

Take care all.

[Jeff Stein]

One competition with 14 clubs will be a big boost to the division.

The competition doesn't need a big boost. It has been more successful than anyone could have hoped for this year and all the clubs appear to me to have bought into it. I think given that all teams have been relatively competitive this year there must be hopes that Coventry will be a successful entrant next year.

However if four teams (or five if Toulouse get the nod) come down next year, what will happen? Firstly in my view it will be a poisoned chalice going up this year as the chance of survival will be minimal. Second the competition will have a group of clubs in it who frankly don't want to be there. We can look forward to the division of death garbage again. Thirdly the league will be unbalanced again with expansion clubs potentially facing the grind of playing heartlands teams week after week with the ensuing damage that can do after consecutive batterings.

It annoys me that CC1 now appears to be an afterthought in the restructure. One of those at the heart of the RFL's plans has been quick to take credit for the success of CC1 this year and now appears not to give a monkeys about it.

As to regionalising it, I know that Hemel as an amateur club have always wanted to play in national leagues. How ironic now they have finally reached semi-pro level that they may be forced to play on a regional basis

[archibald]

So, 41 pages in, does anyone have the full plan as to what's going to happen yet?

[dkw]

So, 41 pages in, does anyone have the full plan as to what's going to happen yet?

Yep, stuff is happening. Stuff and things.