The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Wellsy4HullFC]

To be fair I think its inevitable the champ clubs will get an increase in their crowds with P&R returning. I don't think many if any SL crowds will improve though.

I think SL crowds will improve in the last 7 games because they will be bigger matches against bigger teams.

Championship crowds at the top will improve because there is more at stake. And they most certainly will improve in the final 7 games against not only the top Championship clubs but also SL clubs. I think bottom end SL clubs will see very little change considering they're already having a poor season and will probably already have poor crowds but at least they'll have a better chance if seeing their team win games at the end if the season and have a reason to (keeping their SL place, not the pointless play off).

That's my opinion anyways.

[Pottsy]

To be fair I think its inevitable the champ clubs will get an increase in their crowds with P&R returning. I don't think many if any SL crowds will improve though.

Aggregate + average crowds (so revenue in other words) will increase at Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Huddersfield, Leeds, Catalans, Hull etc will all increase purely by virtue of the fact that they get to play more games amongst the lead cartel and fewer games against the weaker also rans.

The only way this won't happen is if these clubs somehow suffer a downturn in attendance for some reason.

What occurs below that is speculative at this stage.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

OK, here's a start - if you finish top of $L2 after the 22/23 game part of the season, have you won something ?

Or have you qualified for something else ?

Is that because the system is complicated or because all the details haven't been released yet? Again, there's a difference.

If you finish top of the Championship, I'd say you've won the Championship AND qualified for something else. That might not be what happens, but it's hardly complicated if they decide it's just the latter, is it?

[Griff]

Is that because the system is complicated or because all the details haven't been released yet? Again, there's a difference.

If you finish top of the Championship, I'd say you've won the Championship AND qualified for something else. That might not be what happens, but it's hardly complicated if they decide it's just the latter, is it?

It's not just about complexity - it's about a sense of what you're playing for.

I feel very sorry for teams 5-(maybe)8 in $L2. What are the last seven games all about for them ?

[thundergaz]

It's not just about complexity - it's about a sense of what you're playing for.

I feel very sorry for teams 5-(maybe)8 in $L2. What are the last seven games all about for them ?

Avoiding relegation Richie. Of course they shouldn't go down when finishing around them positions but you never know also the big plus for them is the extra income which I'm sure will be much appreciated.

[thundergaz]

OK, here's a start - if you finish top of $L2 after the 22/23 game part of the season, have you won something ?

Or have you qualified for something else ?

Its more the lack of knowledge Richie than the system being complicated. You know how the 3x8 is going to be made up its just the finishing points as you have pointed out that need finalising. Edited August 4, 2013 by thundergaz

[Griff]

Avoiding relegation Richie. Of course they shouldn't go down when finishing around them positions but you never know also the big plus for them is the extra income which I'm sure will be much appreciated.

The point is, Gaz, that they may well already have enough points from the 22/23 game stage to avoid relegation before the last seven games start. Might be just a huge (ten points or so) advantage but, worse still, could be mathematically certain.

[Griff]

Its more the lack of knowledge Richie than the system being complicated. You know how the 3x8 is going to be made up its just the finishing points as you have pointed out that need finalising.

Finishing points ? These are absolutely crucial to public acceptance of the system.

[Pottsy]

I think people are confusing complicated with lack of knowledge. We don't fully know the system yet so we are hardly in a position to understand it!

The debate over whether the system is too complicated for rugby league fans is entirely subjective, although you'd like to think most people could get their heads round it eventually.

The other imponderable question that I think is more significant is whether these changes make our game even more impenetrable to the world outside. What might seem obvious to us may appear 'complicated' to the uninitiated (including sports editors)

As for not knowing the system, get with it Wellsy lad! Most of the details are now in the public domain, even if you have to seek them out, and the majority of others were clarified by messrs Solly and Rimmer on Tuesday.

I do agree though that the RFL needs to do a much better job of explaining and selling these changes (let's face it, we know they're coming) to us "stakeholders."

[thundergaz]

The point is, Gaz, that they may well already have enough points from the 22/23 game stage to avoid relegation before the last seven games start. Might be just a huge (ten points or so) advantage but, worse still, could be mathematically certain.

True Richie that could become the case but like I said the extra income will be the main factor I would of thought. Also you might argue that their fans won't turn up for meaningless games but we've been playing them ever since the licencing system came in. ( not knocking the sport before people jump on the comment just trying to point something out).

[Griff]

True Richie that could become the case but like I said the extra income will be the main factor I would of thought. Also you might argue that their fans won't turn up for meaningless games but we've been playing them ever since the licencing system came in. ( not knocking the sport before people jump on the comment just trying to point something out).

There have been meaningless fixtures ever since leagues were invented. They're a natural consequence.

If you want games that mean something, the ultimate is knock-out competition.

[Pottsy]

Other than that, I think it's a far better idea than having random repeat fixtures to make 27 games and a play-off series that only really kicks in in the last two weeks (as the crowds have shown).

Slightly off topic here, but it really bugs me when people label the playoff system as a flop.

The playoffs were working fantastically for the first couple of years when we introduced the top five system. The intensity was phenomenal, the crowds were pretty good ( feel free to pick me up on this, stattos!) and the system itself meant that each game mattered and the path to the grand final was fairly weighted in favour of teams who finished higher up the ladder.

Unfortunately, in true rugby league style, we looked at the initial success of the playoffs and started to tinker; by the time we reached the bloated and unfair top eight system we'd basically buggered the whole thing up. Personally, I've found the playoffs a total turnoff since we went top eight.

[Derwent]

I think SL crowds will improve in the last 7 games because they will be bigger matches against bigger teams.

Championship crowds at the top will improve because there is more at stake. And they most certainly will improve in the final 7 games against not only the top Championship clubs but also SL clubs. I think bottom end SL clubs will see very little change considering they're already having a poor season and will probably already have poor crowds but at least they'll have a better chance if seeing their team win games at the end if the season and have a reason to (keeping their SL place, not the pointless play off).

That's my opinion anyways.

Your theory about SL1 crowds increasing in the final phase is, on the face of it, logical. However if you look at the details more closely there is an argument that some of the games will be dead rubbers. Looking at this seasons table after 23 games the gap between 4th & positions 5 to 8 respectively is -6 pts, -7 pts, -7 pts & -9 pts. Those points would need to be clawed back over just 7 games. Six points is very difficult as you'd need to win 3 more games than 4th team just to draw level (e.g. you could win 5 out of 7 but 4th only has to win 2). The teams below that can forget it and will just be treading water to see the season out. Edited August 4, 2013 by Derwent

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Your theory about SL1 crowds increasing in the final phase is, on the face of it, logical. However if you look at the details more closely there is an argument that some of the games will be dead rubbers. Looking at this seasons table after 23 games the gap between 4th & positions 5 to 8 respectively is -6 pts, -7 pts, -7 pts & -9 pts. Those points would need to be clawed back over just 7 games. Six points is very difficult as you'd need to win 3 more games than 4th team just to draw level (e.g. you could win 5 out of 7 but 4th only has to win 2). The teams below that can forget it and will just be treading water to see the season out.

Do we know for sure that the points will be carrying over to the play-off league? I know it was discussed before when they said the split would be after 11 games but didn't think it was still the idea now.

In a league system, there will always be some games that are dead rubbers. Unavoidable.

[Derwent]

Do we know for sure that the points will be carrying over to the play-off league? I know it was discussed before when they said the split would be after 11 games but didn't think it was still the idea now.

In a league system, there will always be some games that are dead rubbers. Unavoidable.

Yes Rimmer confirmed the other day that points will carry forward in Tier 1 & 3, but Tier 2 will start off zero points.

[Pottsy]

Your theory about SL1 crowds increasing in the final phase is, on the face of it, logical. However if you look at the details more closely there is an argument that some of the games will be dead rubbers. Looking at this seasons table after 23 games the gap between 4th & positions 5 to 8 respectively is -6 pts, -7 pts, -7 pts & -9 pts. Those points would need to be clawed back over just 7 games. Six points is very difficult as you'd need to win 3 more games than 4th team just to draw level (e.g. you could win 5 out of 7 but 4th only has to win 2). The teams below that can forget it and will just be treading water to see the season out.

This is a really good point and one I hadn't really considered before. With those sort of deficit those seven rounds would be meaningless as all the teams in the top four would be playing for is home advantage.

I hope when the RFL and the clubs sit down to discuss these plans again there is someone at the table who is also able to pull up this kind of evidence before any decision is made.

On a general note, I actually think that the perceived 'staleness' of Super League has as much to do with the sheer length of the season than the absence of the threat of relegation. Personally, I just find that the back end of the season drags on well past its welcome.

Personally, I'd be happier with 22-23 intense rounds and more gaps for representative rugby.

[Methven Hornet]

Do we know for sure that the points will be carrying over to the play-off league? I know it was discussed before when they said the split would be after 11 games but didn't think it was still the idea now.

In a league system, there will always be some games that are dead rubbers. Unavoidable.

 

Do we know for sure that the points will be carrying over to the play-off league? I know it was discussed before when they said the split would be after 11 games but didn't think it was still the idea now.

In a league system, there will always be some games that are dead rubbers. Unavoidable.

 

I've been away for a while, and may have missed some new developments, but surely under the 3x8 system the point won't be carried over to the middle league - ie, the one that will decide promotion and relegation. How can they be, the 4 clubs coming from the bottom 12 are going to have a lot more points than the 4 coming from the top 12. The only way it can work is to start from zero points for the middle 8.

[Pottsy]

Yes Rimmer confirmed the other day that points will carry forward in Tier 1 & 3, but Tier 2 will start off zero points.

This info has been in the public domain for ages. Don't you get newspapers in Hull, Wellsy?!

[redjonn]

I personally don't like the suggested 2 into x3 sets of 8.   Not that its overly complicated because compared to the current x8 play off system it is relatively simple... have you ever tried to describe the current play off system to non rugby league fans,,,, well I'll be honest I always get somewhat confused in midst of description let alone leaving the other shaking their head. Plus every season I end up debating it with other league watches in order to correct their often mistaken understanding.

 

So it is farce, in my opinion, the proposed new system but not that complicated as currently detailed.  That is from getting new fans into the game...

 

As well as the issue's described by others I think that in addition playing teams too many times will cause people to start picking and choosing more carefully those games they attend.    In the first 23 games to decide the top 8, a team will play each x2 plus one team x3 (magic weekend).   Then we have the break into 8 in which each team then plays each other once... so that will be each team played x3 times plus x1 team x4 depending upon magic weekend fixture.  Then if fortunate to make final last 4 play off then that will be x4 times, or maybe one team x5 depending upon which team played in magic weekend.

   This without including the challenge cup.

 

So given my hard earned cash, how many times do I watch of the x4 games against a single team (assuming make the play offs).   I may as well await until the final x8 and play-offs which will have more intensity.

 

Please correct me if I'm being daft in seeing the number of games the top 8 of the first league will play each other.

[Pottsy]

Another question: are we to assume that the Championship clubs will be rid of bonus points ( another of Nigel's follies?) or, heaven forbid, are we going to have this gimmicky system rolled out to Super League?

Edited August 4, 2013 by Pottsy

[Wellsy4HullFC]

This info has been in the public domain for ages. Don't you get newspapers in Hull, Wellsy?!

I've been focusing on the cup run for the last few weeks rather than the politics of the league, Pottsy. I kinda got bored of the indecisiveness of what they were putting forward (and then this thread got really long so I couldn't be bothered to keep up with what was happening!).

I agree with Derwent that if the league points roll over into the SL play-offs then it will make it pointless for the teams around 7-8th. They have little hope in making the top four at that stage so their season will effectively be over. After you make the 8, it needs to be a separate competition. That's how you'll get the most intense competition on the field and most interest off it. The league leaders shield should be the prize after 22 rounds and should be enough to keep the top teams motivated up to the split whilst the rest battle for the 8.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

What of those outside the top 24 anyway? What's the plan there?

Going off this season's league positions and the likely inclusion of Toulouse, the top two leagues will look something like:

Super League:

Bradford, Castleford, Catalans, Huddersfield, Hull FC, Hull KR, Leeds, St Helens, Wakefield, Warrington, Widnes, Wigan.

Championship:

Batley, Dewsbury, Doncaster, Featherstone, Halifax, Leigh, London, Salford, Sheffield, Toulouse, Whitehaven, Workington.

This leaves Keighley, York, Barrow, Swinton, Hunslet, the 9 KPC1 clubs and Coventry (who are due to join C1 next season). That's 15 clubs.

Considering that 7 of those clubs are outside the North (if you include Crusaders as not northern), could it be a possibility to have Championship North and Championship South? Play your group twice and the other group once makes 20-22 fixtures.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

I personally don't like the suggested 2 into x3 sets of 8. Not that its overly complicated because compared to the current x8 play off system it is relatively simple... have you ever tried to describe the current play off system to non rugby league fans,,,, well I'll be honest I always get somewhat confused in midst of description let alone leaving the other shaking their head. Plus every season I end up debating it with other league watches in order to correct their often mistaken understanding.

So it is farce, in my opinion, the proposed new system but not that complicated as currently detailed. That is from getting new fans into the game...

You've not actually said why it's a farce! You've just said that you don't like it! If it's not complicated, what's the issue?

As well as the issue's described by others I think that in addition playing teams too many times will cause people to start picking and choosing more carefully those games they attend. In the first 23 games to decide the top 8, a team will play each x2 plus one team x3 (magic weekend). Then we have the break into 8 in which each team then plays each other once... so that will be each team played x3 times plus x1 team x4 depending upon magic weekend fixture. Then if fortunate to make final last 4 play off then that will be x4 times, or maybe one team x5 depending upon which team played in magic weekend.

This without including the challenge cup.

So given my hard earned cash, how many times do I watch of the x4 games against a single team (assuming make the play offs). I may as well await until the final x8 and play-offs which will have more intensity.

Please correct me if I'm being daft in seeing the number of games the top 8 of the first league will play each other.

I'd personally have the Magic Weekend in the second part of the season which would help this problem (as well as the imbalance of the home fixtures).

But it's a natural thing in sport that the top teams play each other more than twice. How many times do Man Utd play the likes of Chelsea etc? I'm sure there was a season where they played them twice in the league, in the FA cup and twice in the Champions League.

If you buy a season ticket (which is what they'll be pushing), why would you pick and choose games?

[archibald]

Good argument. A patronising name for the league followed by an impossible to answer question...

A patronising name thought up by a Leigh fan, who for some reason is desperate for his club to get promotion to this horrible place.

Edited August 4, 2013 by archibald

[Pottsy]

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Edited August 4, 2013 by Pottsy