The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Maximus Decimus]

Face the facts of the matter instead of just poo pooing a decent fist of explaining why the 3x8 might work because the rest of your post is a gripe about little old Widnes not getting as many season ticket holders under the new system. Maybe Widnes should actually live up to the hype then and aim for the top 8, instead of mediocrity backed up by a guaranteed hand out.

What a fantastic reply. Why would I explain why the 3 x 8 might work when I don't think it will? I think it's artificial, convoluted and desperate. It says wonders that Scottish football were the only other sporting league looking at this.

As a Widnes fan obviously I am going to use my own club's experience first and foremost but Widnes are one of a number of clubs in a similar position. First off it is ridiculous to claim that this year we didn't aim for the top 8, as if we consciously decided to finish in the lower reaches. Up until about round 15 we still had an outside chance of making it.

You are arguing the incredibly simplistic notion that fans and sponsors just want to see their clubs win games. This is an obvious nonsense as relegated teams always see a drop in attendance despite inevitably winning more games in the lower division. The middle 8 will inevitably be seen as a mini-relegation. London, Salford, Widnes and Cas fans wouldn't suddenly come out of the woodwork because of the prospect of beating Featherstone and Sheffield.

This isn't just speculation, Swiss Football has seen attendances increase at the top level 50% since they dropped this model and this is what the spokesman of the Swiss League had to say:

We changed to a league of 10 in 2003 because the second part of the championship didn’t work.

It was very complicated for television and sponsors who didn’t want to be associated with any meaningless matches. It is much easier to have two separate divisions.

There are still ongoing discussions here about league reconstruction and there are a number of supporters who would like to revert to the old system.

But the current set-up has been in operation for 10 years now and I think the majority are in favour of it.

The second part of the season, with eight clubs playing for the title, was as successful as the current system.

But fans were not turning up in the same numbers, especially at the start of the season or when the games didn’t matter as much.

There can be more excitement with a split but given we are now among the top 10 in Europe when it comes to attendances it would be a backward step to revert back to the old formula.

In RL too often we try to tell fans how they should think about something, with licensing we tried to tell lower division fans that they should just be happy watching games for the sake of watching RL. Now it looks like we'll be trying to tell fans of the middle 8 that they should be happy winning games. The reality would be that the bottom 4 SL fans would switch off after they failed to make the 8.

I think this would in practise work worse than in Football. Football has an element of unpredictability that RL doesn't have, if there is a mismatch in RL it is shown up easily so I think there would be little fluidity in the leagues. The problem will still remain that the initial 12 SL clubs will be a lot stronger than the second 12. They will have more money, attract better players and be in a higher standard of competition. The bottom 4 will still face weaker teams full of part-timers because there is no way RL can sustain 24 full-time professional clubs.

If I was looking at it from a purely Widnes perspective, I might be in favour of 3 x 8. As long as we weren't relegated next year we would be in a good position to stay in SL for a long time. The top 12 will be infinitely better off and it will only be clubs facing financial ruin that will end up being relegated.

[Maximus Decimus]

Season tickets again !!  An outdated product belonging to the Victorian era of the members' club. 

 

They need a big rethink.

Without season tickets, SL crowds would be a lot smaller than they are now.

A big rethink leads to situations like the Widnes Stronghold, which the club are currently backtracking from.

[Griff]

Without season tickets, SL crowds would be a lot smaller than they are now..

 

Not if you replace them with something more fitting to modern living.

[Pottsy]

Season tickets again !! An outdated product belonging to the Victorian era of the members' club.

They need a big rethink.

There are lots of things posted on this forum that I disagree with, there are lots of things I think are barking mad.

However, I never thought I'd see anyone dismissing season tickets as a relic when they're the only thing propping our crowds up.

The big challenge for rugby league is to figure out how to get people to games that aren't covered by the season ticket!

To cut a long story short, season tickets are a lifeline for most super league clubs and for those fans who like to obsess over crowd data. We should be figuring out ways to sell more of them.

[a.n Other]

Not if you replace them with something more fitting to modern living.

Such as?

[Griff]

This isn't a thread about season tickets.

 

But they have many disadvantages - not least that clubs' income is not spread evenly over the year.

 

There's also a temptation to sell them at too large a discount on the walk-up price (as at Bradford and Dewsbury in recent years).  Lots of money in January, all gone by May.

 

I'd sell books of ten* tickets for the price of nine*.  Sell them all through the year.  Use them in the next 12 months*.  If that's next season, what does the club care ?  They got the money at the price ruling when they got the money.  I would also allow them to be used for shared gate games, ideally, thus solving the season-ticket-holders-won't-pay-for-cup-ties problem.  Obviously, you'd need the agreement of the opposing club but, bearing in mind that the current solution is to let everybody in for a  fiver or summat ridiculous (thereby implying that your product is worthless), should be easy enough.

 

 

 

 

 

*If you don't like these numbers, make up your own deal.

[Keith T]

If I was looking at it from a purely Widnes perspective, I might be in favour of 3 x 8. As long as we weren't relegated next year we would be in a good position to stay in SL for a long time. The top 12 will be infinitely better off and it will only be clubs facing financial ruin that will end up being relegated.

Eureka!!! Is this not why so many SL clubs and their fans are so wanting this 3 x 8 system brought in as it safeguards their existence in SL?

[Maximus Decimus]

This isn't a thread about season tickets.

 

But they have many disadvantages - not least that clubs' income is not spread evenly over the year.

 

There's also a temptation to sell them at too large a discount on the walk-up price (as at Bradford and Dewsbury in recent years).  Lots of money in January, all gone by May.

 

I'd sell books of ten* tickets for the price of nine*.  Sell them all through the year.  Use them in the next 12 months*.  If that's next season, what does the club care ?  They got the money at the price ruling when they got the money.  I would also allow them to be used for shared gate games, ideally, thus solving the season-ticket-holders-won't-pay-for-cup-ties problem.  Obviously, you'd need the agreement of the opposing club but, bearing in mind that the current solution is to let everybody in for a  fiver or summat ridiculous (thereby implying that your product is worthless), should be easy enough.

 

 

 

 

 

*If you don't like these numbers, make up your own deal.

It's hardly a radical change and the potential problem is that a large number of fans that would pay for a season ticket end up paying for one of the 9/10 games deals and the clubs lose money.

Season tickets are a great way of clubs pocketing guaranteed money from fans that wouldn't necessarily always go otherwise, especially with TV. This year I've not had a ST and worked out that I've gone to 7 of Widnes's 12 home games this year. 3 of those were TV that I decided to stay home and save money and 1 of the other 2 I could have got to had I really wanted to, epecially had I a free ticket for it. There would be the same problems with a 9 match ticket, I'd stay at home for TV games and use them for non TV games.

The Widnes Stronghold idea was one to try and break free from the season tickets issue but it hasn't worked. Fans give up when the season isn't going well and the price for rejoining is too high. I moved to Ireland and cancelled but haven't been willing to pay the rejoin fee since I returned.

[Maximus Decimus]

Eureka!!! Is this not why so many SL clubs and their fans are so wanting this 3 x 8 system brought in as it safeguards their existence in SL?

I don't think there is a great deal of support for this from either clubs or fans, the RFL are really pushing it as their preferred choice.

If you're a middling Super League club, this is a more secure system of remaining a SL club then P&R is.

[Griff]

It's hardly a radical change and the potential problem is that a large number of fans that would pay for a season ticket end up paying for one of the 9/10 games deals and the clubs lose money.

Season tickets are a great way of clubs pocketing guaranteed money from fans that wouldn't necessarily always go otherwise, especially with TV. This year I've not had a ST and worked out that I've gone to 7 of Widnes's 12 home games this year. 3 of those were TV that I decided to stay home and save money and 1 of the other 2 I could have got to had I really wanted to, epecially had I a free ticket for it. There would be the same problems with a 9 match ticket, I'd stay at home for TV games and use them for non TV games.

 

It says a lot about the confidence we have in our product that we're keen to get people to pay for a service that we do not provide.

 

And, of course, you wouldn't need to sell them at the same discount as a traditional season ticket because the buyer would expect to be able to use all the tickets.

 

Anyway - not likely to happen in the near future.

[Griff]

.

If I was looking at it from a purely Widnes perspective, I might be in favour of 3 x 8. As long as we weren't relegated next year we would be in a good position to stay in SL for a long time. The top 12 will be infinitely better off and it will only be clubs facing financial ruin that will end up being relegated.

 

Ah - that's $uperleague, isn't it ?  Great - as long as you're in it.

[Maximus Decimus]

It says a lot about the confidence we have in our product that we're keen to get people to pay for a service that we do not provide.

 

And, of course, you wouldn't need to sell them at the same discount as a traditional season ticket because the buyer would expect to be able to use all the tickets.

 

Anyway - not likely to happen in the near future.

It's not about confidence it's about human nature and the reality of people attending games. This isn't sport specific, I'd argue the exact same for Football or Rugby Union. It's also the same logic that is why big events like to get people to pre-buy tickets rather than pay on the day.

I remember once I was invited to a 21st birthday party for a lad I knew but I wasn't going because I was up for work at 4am the next morning. I ended up going because I was so guilted into it by people on the morning of the party, a large number of which didn't end up going themselves. If they'd actually had to pre-pay for a ticket to the party I wonder how many would have made an excuse to pull out?

Say you have a Leeds fan that is given the choice of a season ticket at £200 or a 10 game pass that he can use over a season for £175. You are running the risk of a large number picking the £175 instead because it is cheaper and it gives them more choice to pick and choose games, especially when some are on TV and some like Salford, London or Widnes are foregone conclusions.

[redjonn]

Meaningful fixtures for the worst SL and best SL2 teams.

 

Rather than week after week of drubbings or runaway wins, closer more exciting games that can be marketed to within an inch of their lives (if the clubs are savvy)

 

I don't see why it will be any different that the straight forward option.   In the 2 into x3 surely the bottom 4 that drop out will into 2nd tier will me fairly consistent over the seasons with  a group of clubs including some of the current stronger championship teams bouncing back and forth.  However, not able to contend with the top teams and hence still getting high scoring defeats.

 

The key is increasing the intensity and I think that the bottom grouping of teams in the straight forward option will have high intensity games with the "immediate" relegation threat.  The drop of 4 teams into he 2nd tier will be more of a safety net in that x4 teams come back again to the first stage of the tier.

 

I just don't see how the gate receipts for the x4 teams that drop into the 2nd stage tier will get increased crowds.   There gates will fall to the championship levels... surely that is what the current evidence shows what 2nd tier gates will look like.    OK, that may prove to be wrong but it is a risk to introduce the new 2 into x3 structure that it will not be the case, so why go for the complexity.

 

The other point for me remains that will be playing teams too many times in the x2 into 3 leagues structure and associated play-offs (just counting the league games not challenge cup). That surely leads to the risk that fans will decide not to attend all the "repeat games" in respect to both home and away games.   They will be more choosy.   Of course the way in which season tickets are packaged could be a factor but surly they will cost more for the extra games. As some clubs offer grouping rather than full season tickets then I think fans will be more choosey.  I think the overall attendances will not go up - they will be shared across more game. Of because of increased games the cost base will go up.   

[Lobbygobbler]

The 3x8 is only near the end of the season though isnt it? Therefore for the majority of the year it is two divisions.

You might argue that the top 8 is like the playoffs for the SL title, whilst the middle 8 is like the playoffs to stay up/get promoted.

Sounds great to me

[Maximus Decimus]

The 3x8 is only near the end of the season though isnt it? Therefore for the majority of the year it is two divisions.

You might argue that the top 8 is like the playoffs for the SL title, whilst the middle 8 is like the playoffs to stay up/get promoted.

Sounds great to me

I presume the middle 8 is a mini-league that starts again.

Is this true for the top 8 though? If so it is actually madness as it provides no incentive for clubs like Leeds, Wigan and Wire that will see no achievement in simply making it into that top league.

The whole concept is made on the premise that the leagues will be reasonably competitive. This is where it falls down. The top 4 of the second division will not be up to the standard of the top league, we simply don't have the resources for it to work. A really dire London side looked comfortably better than one of the top Championship sides on their own patch recently and it's unlikely to change.

[Griff]

It's not about confidence it's about human nature and the reality of people attending games. This isn't sport specific, I'd argue the exact same for Football or Rugby Union. It's also the same logic that is why big events like to get people to pre-buy tickets rather than pay on the day.

I remember once I was invited to a 21st birthday party for a lad I knew but I wasn't going because I was up for work at 4am the next morning. I ended up going because I was so guilted into it by people on the morning of the party, a large number of which didn't end up going themselves. If they'd actually had to pre-pay for a ticket to the party I wonder how many would have made an excuse to pull out?

Say you have a Leeds fan that is given the choice of a season ticket at £200 or a 10 game pass that he can use over a season for £175. You are running the risk of a large number picking the £175 instead because it is cheaper and it gives them more choice to pick and choose games, especially when some are on TV and some like Salford, London or Widnes are foregone conclusions.

 

I was always told that successful marketing is about selling what people want to buy, rather than what you want to sell.

 

Anyway, this is all off topic.

[Maximus Decimus]

I was always told that successful marketing is about selling what people want to buy, rather than what you want to sell.

 

Anyway, this is all off topic.

All marketing is a form of deception and anyway they do want to buy it. There's nobody being tricked into buying a season ticket that desperately doesn't want to go the rugby. Most who buy one think they are making a saving across a season without realising that without a ST they probably wouldn't attend every single game. Life and money gets in the way, season tickets take away the uncertainty of this.

It's not completely off-topic because I think the 3x8 model threatens season ticket sales. Lower clubs might decide against one in case a portion of their ST is against lower-division clubs and higher placed clubs might class the first part of the season as non-essential. It all depends on whether the top league resets or not.

[Griff]

I presume the middle 8 is a mini-league that starts again.

Is this true for the top 8 though? If so it is actually madness as it provides no incentive for clubs like Leeds, Wigan and Wire that will see no achievement in simply making it into that top league.

 

The whole concept is made on the premise that the leagues will be reasonably competitive. This is where it falls down. The top 4 of the second division will not be up to the standard of the top league, we simply don't have the resources for it to work. A really dire London side looked comfortably better than one of the top Championship sides on their own patch recently and it's unlikely to change.

 

Apparently, only the middle division starts again.

 

I'm not convinced that the middle division will be competitive, though things have already changed on the financial side and I'd be prepared to give it a go.  I will, however, be saying "I told you so" if it isn't competitive.

 

The third league of eight seems utterly pointless for the top teams in it.  It's quite likely that they'll already be safe from relegation at the outset.  This will be a huge anticlimax to their season and won't help their season ticket sales for the following season.

[Griff]

It's not completely off-topic because I think the 3x8 model threatens season ticket sales.

 

Then if the clubs accept 3x8, as a consequence, they may need to reconsider their marketing.

[Maximus Decimus]

Then if the clubs accept 3x8, as a consequence, they may need to reconsider their marketing.

Of course, I'm more bothered from a whole game approach.

I'm relieved the top 8 doesn't start again, that would truly have been disastrous for the sport.

[Griff]

All marketing is a form of deception and anyway they do want to buy it. There's nobody being tricked into buying a season ticket that desperately doesn't want to go the rugby.

 

<sigh>  But wouldn't it be nice if more people wanted to go ?

 

This is the wrong place to have some kind of market research.

 

Most of the people on here are keen RL supporters, believe it or not.

 

The people you need to target are the Wavy Mavises who might come but aren't really all that bothered.  You won't find them on here.

[Griff]

Of course, I'm more bothered from a whole game approach.

I'm relieved the top 8 doesn't start again, that would truly have been disastrous for the sport.

 

It's been fairly well publicized.  If you'd researched the subject better, you'd have known.

[Maximus Decimus]

<sigh>  But wouldn't it be nice if more people wanted to go ?

 

This is the wrong place to have some kind of market research.

 

Most of the people on here are keen RL supporters, believe it or not.

 

The people you need to target are the Wavy Mavises who might come but aren't really all that bothered.  You won't find them on here.

Sigh? You're the person arguing against what the vast majority of sporting clubs do and has had no better alternative in ensuring fans get to games. I haven't even implied that we do market research on here so you can take back your attempted patronising tone.

If you're willing to pay out £150-200 up front for a season pass to a game of rugby then you're hardly being tricked into buying one. They are clearly buying one for a reason and the most sensible reaon is that they think they will save money across a season. The reality however is that if they didn't buy one a large number wouldn't attend all of the games for a variety of reasons. Your idea encourages people to potentially opt for a lower priced alternative.

Let's look at some facts rather than idle speculation. Season tickets are more popular compared to average attendances over here than in the NRL where the game has a higher profile.

Leeds Rhinos have about 10,000 ST holders and so far this year have managed a biggest crowd of 18,500 and a lowest of 12,500. So there is not even a 50% increase from the lowest to the highest crowd. Then look at a team like South Sydney, they have had a much bigger highest crowd of 32,000 yet have a lower lowest crowd of just 11,000. That is a difference of almost 3 times from their lowest to their biggest.

This difference is replicated across Super League, where most clubs see a relatively small increase from their biggest to their smallest regardless of derbies. I would suggest it is because of the success that British clubs have had in encouraging their fans to buy season tickets.

There's nothing worse than somebody acting all enlightened as if they have the answers when in reality they have none of them.

[Maximus Decimus]

It's been fairly well publicized.  If you'd researched the subject better, you'd have known.

It's 'publicised' in this country.

See, I can be patronising too.

[Griff]

It's 'publicised' in this country.

See, I can be patronising too.

 

If only I could turn off this bloody autocorrect.........

 

And either is acceptable, actually, though the s is more commonly used.