The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Lobbygobbler]

12x2x8x3 or whatever it is, is utterly ludicrous - as shown on here by the fact no one can work out what's what with it

Seems pretty straightforwards to me.

[Scubby]

Seems pretty straightforwards to me.

 

So what happens to the top 8 when the split is formed? Do they all start on 0 points. Do they keep all the points from 23 rounds or do they keep only the points gained against teams making the 8 (which may mean that they swap places going into the 3x8 rounds)?

[Griff]

So what happens to the top 8 when the split is formed? Do they all start on 0 points. Do they keep all the points from 23 rounds or do they keep only the points gained against teams making the 8 (which may mean that they swap places going into the 3x8 rounds)?

 

You've not bothered to read the thread before contributing, then ?

[keighley]

12x2x8x3 or whatever it is, is utterly ludicrous - as shown on here by the fact no one can work out what's what with it

 

Absolutely right. Also, if it works out as they hope, no Championship team will ever beat out any of the SL teams in the middle eight because of financing and recruitment issues,and the top eight in SL will have their own little mini league where they can pursue their dream of a reduced size competiton and determine a Champion year after year with little or no change for the really big boys who usually win it.

 

A 2 x10 or 2 x 12 league with guaranteed p and r would actually change the composition of SL and give the hopefuls a chance and give the weak and failing teams in SL what they deserve.

 

There is no such guarantee with the three by eight with the middle eight p and r mini league stacked from the outset against the championship teams.

[Scubby]

You've not bothered to read the thread before contributing, then ?

 

I've read 100s of threads on it - including this one. I was responding to the "seems straight forward to me" . That would not be straight forward to anybody who doesn't know the game. Ask anyone who doesn't follow cricket to try and explain the world cup and 'super six' format.

[Ponterover]

12x2x8x3 or whatever it is, is utterly ludicrous - as shown on here by the fact no one can work out what's what with it

 

It's not in the slightest bit complicated, in fact it pretty stright forward if you take two minutes to read how it would work, instead of rejecting it out of hand because you've never seen anything like it before.

[Ponterover]

Absolutely right. Also, if it works out as they hope, no Championship team will ever beat out any of the SL teams in the middle eight because of financing and recruitment issues,and the top eight in SL will have their own little mini league where they can pursue their dream of a reduced size competiton and determine a Champion year after year with little or no change for the really big boys who usually win it.

 

A 2 x10 or 2 x 12 league with guaranteed p and r would actually change the composition of SL and give the hopefuls a chance and give the weak and failing teams in SL what they deserve.

 

There is no such guarantee with the three by eight with the middle eight p and r mini league stacked from the outset against the championship teams.

 

You're making Parky's mistake of assuming that because the champ clubs are semi pro now, they will be in 2015. With the funding that's going to the top championship clubs and the outside investment available, that middle eight will be ultra competitive.

[Keith T]

You're making Parky's mistake of assuming that because the champ clubs are semi pro now, they will be in 2015. With the funding that's going to the top championship clubs and the outside investment available, that middle eight will be ultra competitive.

Well you would expect four of the middle eight to be "ultra competitive" seeing as they will be SL1 teams with £1.3 million in funding.

This system is all about trying as best they can to keep the status quo in SL1 and all they had to do was convince the top four Championship clubs that there was a doorway in to SL1 and they would jump at it. When do the four Championship clubs get this new funding? Is it at the end of the 2014 season or at the end of the 23 matches of the 2015 season or at the end of the 2015 season after the 3 x 8 games are concluded? The RFL says that the bottom 8 group will be playing for to decide who gets relegated and also to decide the amount of funding clubs get re. finishing positions!!!

[Griff]

You're making Parky's mistake of assuming that because the champ clubs are semi pro now, they will be in 2015. With the funding that's going to the top championship clubs and the outside investment available, that middle eight will be ultra competitive.

 

Unfortunately, the second twelve won't be.

[Griff]

I've read 100s of threads on it .....

 

Yet you don't even know whether the points are carried forward ?

[Scubby]

Yet you don't even know whether the points are carried forward ?

 

Whoosh!!!

 

Look who I was making the post to? If you've been on here long enough then you would know that 'Lobby' baiting is a professional TRL sport. Sorry I didn't mention rectangular stadiums to make that clearer. HTH. 

Edited August 23, 2013 by Scubby

[Scubby]

What will happen to SL records (e.g. tries, goals in a season), winning runs etc. consecutive wins? Do non-SL players vote on MoS can a 2x8 player win SL young player of the year? It will be a huge can of worms once it starts and will add to the confusion.

[redjonn]

It's not in the slightest bit complicated, in fact it pretty stright forward if you take two minutes to read how it would work, instead of rejecting it out of hand because you've never seen anything like it before.

 

Although I am not in favour of the format I must agree with you that it is relatively straight forward, especially if you compare it to the current play-off system.   

 

Some rugby league fans still fail to grasp the detail and especially non rugby league fans get to the point of rolling their eyes to show distain before one completes explaining the current play-offs, especially when you mention that the beaten teams from the qualifying play-off have a second bite and even if they get beat in the qualifying play-off they can go on and win it via the preliminary play off.  By this time their are shaking their heads without mentioning the club call.

 

So all in all at least explaining the play-offs will be easier.

Edited August 23, 2013 by redjonn

[Methven Hornet]

*throws fag packet in bin*

 

I do hope these were electronic cigarettes (à la Merthyr Town FC)!

[keighley]

You're making Parky's mistake of assuming that because the champ clubs are semi pro now, they will be in 2015. With the funding that's going to the top championship clubs and the outside investment available, that middle eight will be ultra competitive.

 

I absolutely, sincerely hope you are 1000% right but, as usual, the devil is in the details and I think it might not be so equal as you think. Time will tell.

 

The top six or so clubs don't care though. They will be in their own little world at the top unhindered by having ti mix it with the hoi polloi and maybe lose a playoff game.

[the phoenix]

would assume that the top 8 will care that they dont drop down to the 2nd eight 

[The Parksider]

You're making Parky's mistake of assuming that because the champ clubs are semi pro now, they will be in 2015. With the funding that's going to the top championship clubs and the outside investment available, that middle eight will be ultra competitive.

 

You can only go on how it is and the funding for the championship clubs won't be enough to make any of them fully professional.

 

Of course outside investment can make the difference and nahaboo is promising it, there's no such promise at the other clubs although there's noises that halifax may try to turn professional.

 

But the bottom four SL clubs will have the privelige of access to the best players for the start of 2015, and SL is where the best go.

 

In a situation where the player pool of professionals is shrinking and part causing two SL clubs to be ditched 2014, your making the mistake of assumimg quality professionals will be available for CC clubs to pick up, when they will have signed to SL.

[Marauder]

Lot of empty spaces Parky   from your renown quotes of the attendances being over the moon in super league, what do you offer as to why so many red seats could be seen.

[Marauder]

You can only go on how it is and the funding for the championship clubs won't be enough to make any of them fully professional.

 

Of course outside investment can make the difference and nahaboo is promising it, there's no such promise at the other clubs although there's noises that halifax may try to turn professional.

 

But the bottom four SL clubs will have the privelige of access to the best players for the start of 2015, and SL is where the best go.

 

In a situation where the player pool of professionals is shrinking and part causing two SL clubs to be ditched 2014, your making the mistake of assumimg quality professionals will be available for CC clubs to pick up, when they will have signed to SL.

Why do you think the professional players pool is shrinking?

[The Parksider]

Why do you think the professional players pool is shrinking?

 

Less comimg over from abroad, more leaving for Oz, in any event the point is the best players will be at the SL clubs building a side to compete with top tier clubs in the second tier will be tough.  No doubt a struggling SL clubs could get knocked over by a Fev though, but do you believe the middle 8 will be "ultra competetive"

[Marauder]

Less comimg over from abroad, more leaving for Oz, in any event the point is the best players will be at the SL clubs building a side to compete with top tier clubs in the second tier will be tough.  No doubt a struggling SL clubs could get knocked over by a Fev though, but do you believe the middle 8 will be "ultra competetive"

Don't you think it would be wish for super league clubs to finance the development officers lost by the reduction of sports England money.

[THE RED ROOSTER]

Anyone notice the advert from Toulouse looking forward to 2015 in todays Challenge Cup Final Programme ?

[Saintslass]

When I first heard about the two into three idea I was quite excited about it but the more I have thought about it, its implications and how vague the RFL is on matters of finance, etc, the less I like it and the more I want things to be straightforward.

 

I would like to see three honest leagues of 12 teams.  Since licensing has probably had its day (and while has had a significant impact upon youth development has not really made inroads into financial stability or competitiveness), I would like to see P&R between those leagues, preferably two up, two down to ensure competitive games for as long as possible and the maximum opportunity for teams in the lower league to have their chance at the elite end.

 

I don't want the Northern Rail Bowl/Cup to disappear from the landscape for the lower divisions (unless they want it to go of course) and it surely would with this whacky 2 into 3 concept as there wouldn't be the space to play the comp.  I don't want the Challenge Cup to be undervalued or changed (except to get rid of that great big gap between rounds) and yet the 2 into 3 idea is bound to impact on it.  I don't want the sport to look ridiculous or to put itself under even more financial pressure, which I am beginning to think that plan would do.

 

Just live by the KISS principle and all will be well IMO.

[stevowarrior]

Now the Challenge Cup is out of the way could we have more details about the proposed new format whereby  2 leagues of 12 split to 3 leagues of 8. In principle this is by far the most exiting and fair way of determining the starting 12 club line up for the following Super League season. Straight forward promotion and relegation would only drive the game backwards and continually push clubs to the verge of financial ruin. What on earth is the point of replacing a relegated team with one that is not as good as the team it is replacing. What is the point of moving relegated players to the newly promoted club (that's what used to happen). It the bottom 4 Super League Clubs go up against the top 4 Championship clubs to determine the best four for the following season the game can only grow from it. All that worries me is the technicalities of how it all will work. Playing 23 rounds is basically playing each other home and away plus the "Magic" Weekend. Whilst I have no problem with the Magic weekend as a stand alone event I do have a problem with the fact that the results count as a round in Super League and therefore tip the balance of what would otherwise be a fair and even competition. It is what comes after the clubs split into three leagues of 8 that intrigues me. If the clubs only play each other once that would deliver a further seven games or an overall 30 round competition. EVERYBODY already agrees the existing 27 round qualifying completion is too long. If on the other hand each group of 8 start a play off system based on the existing system then fair enough bring it on. It would shorten the over congested season by weeks. I have always maintained a club should only be promoted on merit, not only by beating its peers but also by showing it is capable of beating the team it seeks to replace. If you do not adopt such a philosophy you only drive the game backwards and constantly dilute the end product. 

[The Parksider]

Don't you think it would be wish for super league clubs to finance the development officers lost by the reduction of sports England money.

 

I don't know. My gut reaction is that the Super league clubs should get more directly involved in developing the junior game in their respective areas.

 

Spend it where it works best. Leeds have had a strong hand introducing kids to RL and helping create new local junior clubs.

 

Surely we want a strong junior game that plays out of local amateur clubs local to SL clubs? Put the money there rather than trying to get kids all over england playing and claiming success just because they play the odd game at school?

The analysis I did was most professionals are brought up near Superleague clubs and play for local junior clubs.