The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[yipyee]

Yeah I get that 2 current championship club will join the middle 8 but what of the rest? They will only be able to afford semi-pro? Unless a backer comes in....

Also widnes has had a backer and in their first year finished 14th, this would relegate them to the bottom 12?

I cant see a way in this system how a championship club could break into the SL proper, also when the leagues settle down I can't forsee how a bottom 8 club could break into the middle 8?

[sweaty craiq]

The top 4 of that mid 8 go into SL the following year, the way in is to come 1-4, in reality to be better than 1 of the 4 SL clubs making up the 8. FT v FT that could happen with a bit of luck and a few injuries

[roughyedspud]

no no no no no....

4 leagues of 10

top 5 play offs

1up/1down P&R

each league would have a "pre season" league cup consisting of 2groups of 5,top 2 from each group reach a final.....league cup games included in the season tickets...

we have to get away from the notion that the only clubs that matter is the super league clubs and the top 4 championship clubs that could be super league clubs!!..

ALL THE CLUBS IN ALL THE LEAGUES need to play the same game,the same format...

sure the super league 10 will be the main focus,cos thats where the big money is...but for crying out loud give the championship 30 a fighting chance!!

Edited December 13, 2013 by roughyedspud

[Lobbygobbler]

no no no no no....

4 leagues of 10

top 5 play offs

1up/1down P&R

each league would have a "pre season" league cup consisting of 2groups of 5,top 2 from each group reach a final.....league cup games included in the season tickets...

we have to get away from the notion that the only clubs that matter is the super league clubs and the top 4 championship clubs that could be super league clubs!!..

ALL THE CLUBS IN ALL THE LEAGUES need to play the same game,the same format...

sure the super league 10 will be the main focus,cos thats where the big money is...but for crying out loud give the championship 30 a fighting chance!!

Your proposal with 2up 2down would be better and add greater jeopardy and mobility. It would also increase the probability on non heartland teams miving up the leagues to SL. 1up 1down didnt work as it doesnt allow sufficient mobility and is frustrating if your team is stuck outside SL.

[Doghead]

Derailed already, stick to the Original post.

[shrek]

Your proposal with 2up 2down would be better and add greater jeopardy and mobility. It would also increase the probability on non heartland teams miving up the leagues to SL. 1up 1down didnt work as it doesnt allow sufficient mobility and is frustrating if your team is stuck outside SL.

2up 2down for me is to much in leagues of 10, in your middle two leagues thats a 40% change of teams each season, you'd risk clubs having no time to adjust to the step up or step down.

 

The 12/12 3/8 system still strikes me as a gimmick and I just don't share the optimism of some posters that clubs will compete, I see it as a fast track to more clubs going bust than this board can cope with threads!

 

Its all gone very quiet any whispers of what the clubs are up to?

[Ackroman]

We've been here before. I predict 25 pages+ unless we lock it.

 

I blame the RFU and Sale for moving in to Barton for Dr Spoks ambitious plans to avoid P&R via the Duckworth Lewis method

[The Parksider]

Is this system the answer?

Thinking about it i came to this conclusion. ..

The worst 2 SL clubs would drop down a division and be in the second 12, they would remain pro but make cut backs...

They would be certs for the middle 8...

Looking at Sheffield and crusaders momentum they would also be strong contenders for the middle 8?

That would mean the middle 8 would consist of 6 current SL club's and two current championship clubs,

 

Favorites to go down include London, Bradford, Wakefield. I'm sure they are already thinking about how to survive relegation and be strong enough to get back in Superleague if 3x8 happens If we assume Salford will rise through the table then HKR, Widnes and Cas will be under threat.Add Featherstone and Sheffield and that may be your middle eight.

 

It will be fascinating to watch this, who will come through strongly to change to current order? Featherstone with their planned big spending on players have to be favourites?? Who may fall from grace after avoiding relegation. Will the relegated get back?

 

Personally I think it will all be down to the accountants office as it always is. Those with the money will have the players those without won't. At this point in time it's too early to know if Nahaboo will come up with the goods or if O'Connor, Hudgell, Fulton, Hughes will still be there or any new face be backing a club.

 

The downside for me is the effect of four SL clubs being downgraded, and as you say the possibility Halifax and Leigh end up in a third tier. People don't like second rate RL, and like third rate RL even less as attendance figures show.

 

However KPMG say people will love this and flock to games. But they don't say how? My fear is it may be quite fascinating the first time round but after several seasons when things have calmed down it could prove to be a useless and damaging move, I'd hope not.

[willy]

2X12 3X8 is P&R

 

It encourages economy of scale

 

It allows clubs like Bradford/Wakey/London to fall right down to the third tier if they want to pay off debts/stabilise the club then know its only two seasons back up the pile again to the top 12 then anything goes

 

As for Fev etc, if they have the budget have a go, if not develop their own safe in the knowledge that because they have an even chance of getting up the ladder if they develop a team rather than buy it, they can protect the better part of their assets and actually progress by developing a team to compete. More money into team development, youth teams, far cheaper and cost effective than buying old Aussies or coveting what other teams have and throwing shed loads of cash at them.

 

Even Schofield reckons RL is a young mans game, just as well as this system will need more players of a higher standard playing earlier than they do now.

 

Players will stay where they feel safe especially now. I wouldn't want to be Gareth Carvell right now for instance, new job, pay cut apparently.

 

Money bags teams will always be money bags teams, and the top end get the top quality intense football to rival the NRL eventually which can only be a good thing

 

But as I mentioned elsewhere sport is cyclical, the top 4 will become the top 8 which will change over the seasons because of the 2 X 12 element

 

We all moan about the start/mid season matches not being intense enough, they will have to be now otherwise the top 8 teams will be playing in the second 8 very quickly. Leeds had a stinker at the beginning of the season not long ago, they would not have been in the top 8 then. They won the competition that year I think.

 

More intense over a season, P&R restored as 4 up 4 down, financial stability no reason for anyone to go bust except false pride. Plan over a couple of seasons could lead to a top 8 appearance and then who knows

 

Budgetting over 5 years to hit the top has surely got to be progress over never ever having a chance to get into the top tier or even worse knowing if you do your going straight back down again and owing a lot of cash

 

Works for me and makes a lot of sense it isn't that gimmicky either really it just places an honest assessment of each teams ability on the filed into the public eye while showcasing the potential talent below the top tier in a way SL doesn't do now.

 

2 up 2 down is senseless and a waste of money for all concerned, no one has previously survived without a major injection of cash or ring fencing the league after gaining promotion that way, far too big a disparity between teams and that wont go away with the traditional system

 

licensing is dead, needs reforming, end of.

 

Having thought about this I am quite optimistic it will work well over time my worry is that the default position of boom and bust and supporting rotten teams in the top tier will now happen thanks to self interest at the top.

 

The 2X12 3X8 system really doesn't work well for them over time so Lenaghans response isn't that unexpected

[The Parksider]

We've been here before. I predict 25 pages+ unless we lock it.

 

I blame the RFU and Sale for moving in to Barton for Dr Spoks ambitious plans to avoid P&R via the Duckworth Lewis method

 

If you don't want to discuss the OP then don't.

 

Go watch Telly or read a paper, go for a walk maybe?

[roughyedspud]

 

Your proposal with 2up 2down would be better and add greater jeopardy and mobility. It would also increase the probability on non heartland teams miving up the leagues to SL. 1up 1down didnt work as it doesnt allow sufficient mobility and is frustrating if your team is stuck outside SL.

 

2up 2down for me is to much in leagues of 10, in your middle two leagues thats a 40% change of teams each season, you'd risk clubs having no time to adjust to the step up or step down.

 

which is why ive only gone 1up/1down

 

 

the emphasis of my proposal is KEEP IT SIMPLE...

 

at the moment the 3 main leagues in the country all have different formats..its a mess and theres no consistancy...

 

if we have every club & every league playing the same format,same number of games,same play off system,same "league cup" compettion etc....then its something the clubs,media,advertisers,sponsors,investors and most importantly the FANS! can get behind and support...

 

RL in this country should be booming after the world cup...but the dilly dallying about with the league structure will turn fans,new &old, away from the sport...

[mickhornet]

Far too complicated for me.I cant make head or tail of it.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

Your proposal with 2up 2down would be better and add greater jeopardy and mobility. It would also increase the probability on non heartland teams miving up the leagues to SL. 1up 1down didnt work as it doesnt allow sufficient mobility and is frustrating if your team is stuck outside SL.

By definition, greater mobility = less stability.

 

Less stability could have serious implications for long-term business planning, income/budgets, player and staff recruitment/retention, spectator engagement etc etc.

Edited December 13, 2013 by RugbyLeagueGeek

[Griff]

For the last six years, P+R has been very unimportant.

 

With twelves and eights, it becomes the exact opposite. Pretty much everything.

 

Sure, the top division will carry on as usual, so it will.  But the other divisions - there's no outcome. No climax to the season.  Who wins $uperleague 2 ?  Is it the top team in the second eight ?  Probably a $uperleague 1 team, then.  How mad is that ?  The middle eight "Grand Final" is between fourth and fifth.   There's a final for the third eight between two teams who finished no higher than fifth in their division.

 

For the middle eight, it's one long World Cup type competition where you're playing to qualify from a group of twelve to a group of eight, then a group of eight to a group of twelve, then a group of twelve to a group of eight .......... it's never-ending !!!

[yipyee]

What I can see happening is the top 8 keeping fully pro set ups and being a closed shop top 8, this is much the case now but will be intensified by the budget cuts to the lower SL clubs...

 

Middle tier upper teams will earn enough from the start of the season to fund an on field pro team but not pro set up...the lower middle tier teams will struggle but will probably interchange with the upper teams at certain points, these will also have a pro team on the pitch.... This again would probably end up a close shop as they have more money than the bottom 8, but not enough money to break into the top 8..

 

The 4 clubs that end up in the bottom 12 will walk over the semi-pro clubs for 22 games, in the top 12 the bottom 4 will be battle hardened after fighting there way through 22 tough fixtures... this again will probably lead to the same split of 4 and 4...

 

This will leave the semi-pro clubs who will be in the bottom 12 pitching themselves against pro teams.....they may win the odd game but will naturally finish in the bottom 8.

 

This would mean that they would stay semi-pro and be even further away from the elite! there is also a chance they could fall into the fourth tier after a couple of seasons of overspending takes its toll!

 

 

For me this system would be reducing the elite to 8 clubs....

 

8 more that would be signing cast-offs from the top 8 (they wont be able to afford academy's, top 8 will naturally be the big draw anyhows..)

 

that is the current 14 clubs + 2 more (fev? sheffield?)....

 

So for the other 12 current championship clubs they will probably be in a worse position than now and i can foresee 2 years down the line the same fans moaning how the top 16 is a closed shop!

 

lets say Halifax win the third tier of 8 what have they won? who would care? 

 

This will end up 3 set divisions with no mobility!

Edited December 13, 2013 by yipyee

[Ponterover]

Is this system the answer?

Thinking about it i came to this conclusion. ..

The worst 2 SL clubs would drop down a division and be in the second 12, they would remain pro but make cut backs...

They would be certs for the middle 8...

Looking at Sheffield and crusaders momentum they would also be strong contenders for the middle 8?

That would mean the middle 8 would consist of 6 current SL club's and two current championship clubs,

Lets presume sheff and crusaders make up the 8 would this create a glass ceiling as the extra revenue would in essence create a financial second tier? (Presuming two clubs would gamble and turn fully pro)

Where would that leave fev, fax,leigh, etc stuck in the third tier of the game? Even further from super league?

(For arguments sake you could change sheff/cru for any current championship club)

As a side note if leeds and Hunslet both qualified for the middle 8 would Hunslet be allowed to field half the leeds team to take points off leeds rivals?

 

I love the 3x8 idea (although I eagerly await Martyn Saddler's alternative to be published in LE on Monday).

 

It gives any up and coming team (regardless of their geographical location) the opportunity to step up to the top league, without the massive financial jump that currently exists.

 

If it eventually leaves Featherstone and other clubs in the third tier, so be it.  They will have had their opportunity and bombed it.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

So for the other 12 current championship clubs they will probably be in a worse position than now and i can foresee 2 years down the line the same fans moaning how the top 16 is a closed shop!

 

This is the big thing for me. Whilst at first glance it looks like there is scope for a lot of mobility between the divisions, the reality could well be that it is harder than ever for teams in the lower echelons to break through.

[sweaty craiq]

What we have to remember is that the level of cash needed to be competitive and create the opportunity to move upwards is relatively low in comparison to other sports. 3/4 locals funding £600k pa for 2/3 years is peanuts compared to Soccer/RU, add that to a £600k central funding and they are on a par with the SL funding. Game on

[paulalmanack]

Still have a headache from the super league play-off format let alone 3X12 or 2X8 or 4X4, makes my eyes glaze over whenever I here it. As an old teacher of mine once said "Keep it Simple"!!

[Ponterover]

Still have a headache from the super league play-off format let alone 3X12 or 2X8 or 4X4, makes my eyes glaze over whenever I here it. As an old teacher of mine once said "Keep it Simple"!!

 

It's perfectly simple

[roughyedspud]

What we have to remember is that the level of cash needed to be competitive and create the opportunity to move upwards is relatively low in comparison to other sports. 3/4 locals funding £600k pa for 2/3 years is peanuts compared to Soccer/RU, add that to a £600k central funding and they are on a par with the SL funding. Game on

a competitive and all inclusive league structure will increase attendances and allround revenue of the clubs....

believe it or not clubs survived for a hundred years without sky money..

[Griff]

I love the 3x8 idea (although I eagerly await Martyn Saddler's alternative to be published in LE on Monday).

 

It gives any up and coming team (regardless of their geographical location) the opportunity to step up to the top league, without the massive financial jump that currently exists.

 

If it eventually leaves Featherstone and other clubs in the third tier, so be it.  They will have had their opportunity and bombed it.

 

I don't see it that way, Ponterover.  I think you'll still need a massive financial jump.

[Human Punk]

The 3x8 idea is great. After 18 games there will be at least one team which has no chance of making the top 8, so they'll have 4 games in which to give all their academy players a chance at the top level.

[Griff]

The 3x8 idea is great. After 18 games there will be at least one team which has no chance of making the top 8, so they'll have 4 games in which to give all their academy players a chance at the top level.

 

Which won't happen for a number of reasons.

[EdinburghExile]

The Scottish Korfball League has implemented a similar version of this system for the 2013/14 season, and we're about to do the split. It seems to be working well so far (nothing to do with my club dominating things of course!) in that we've avoided the blow-outs that occurred last season, and that the teams on the cusp of the split (from both sides) have been fighting hard to get over the line.

 

I might get a few whinges when I present my league secretary's report at the end of the season, but so far, so good.