The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[The Parksider]

Or a radical approach, championship winners to 'call out' any SL club outside the SL playoffs that they think they can beat and play over two legs, winner takes the SL place....

 

I suppose Featherstone or Sheffield could have called out a very weak London Broncos to play to see who goes through to the next stage.

 

Beyond that I can't see how any semi pro club could overcome an SL pro club. Oh hang on, bad example that given the challenge cup meetings.

 

Nope, for me it's not radical it's merely a sop to the semi pro clubs, that would most likely backfire as we wait year after year for this to work at least once.

 

As Rimmer and others in top pro-sports jobs have commented, games are won and lost in the accountants office, no amount of re-structuring or even redistribution of SL money changes that.

[Ponterover]

I suppose Featherstone or Sheffield could have called out a very weak London Broncos to play to see who goes through to the next stage.

 

Beyond that I can't see how any semi pro club could overcome an SL pro club. Oh hang on, bad example that given the challenge cup meetings.

 

Nope, for me it's not radical it's merely a sop to the semi pro clubs, that would most likely backfire as we wait year after year for this to work at least once.

 

As Rimmer and others in top pro-sports jobs have commented, games are won and lost in the accountants office, no amount of re-structuring or even redistribution of SL money changes that.

 

Remember that the top championship clubs won't be semi pro anymore.

[nadera78]

Remember that the top championship clubs won't be semi pro anymore.

People keep pointing out there's a difference between a professional club and a club with some players on full time wages. Just look at the Broncos as a perfect example of this and you can see the future for the clubs in the middle eight.

[MrPosh]

That would be great, and it must be played under championship rules ie the SL club must only select a team whose combined salaries are within championship limits and only 1 import

 

I was having a bad morning, but that has genuinely cheered me up.

[The Parksider]

Remember that the top championship clubs won't be semi pro anymore.

 

First thing is to remember that the proposed funding of the SL clubs remains far in excess of the proposed funding for championship clubs. The money gap remains the biggest problem. It creates a quality and number of player gap. Second thing is to remember SL will strengthen by dumping two clubs so probably London won't exist in SL to pick off. Nor at this time will "all our players are for sale" Bradford.

 

If Sheffield and Featherstone are top dogs again by this coming summer who will sign for them in preference to an SL club??

 

By the time the middle eight starts you may be facing such as Wakefield, Castleford, Widnes and HKR all with more expensive and larger squads of players you could not sign. No doubt you would compete better if your squad were training full time, but the fact would remain the opposition would have bigger squads, better players and be coming off a higher standard of rugby.

 

The play off will be a seven match marathon not a cup tie and all I am saying is IMVHO the odds will be stacked big time against the Championship clubs. Training full time won't close that gap. Mr, Nahaboo's money might.

[Ponterover]

First thing is to remember that the proposed funding of the SL clubs remains far in excess of the proposed funding for championship clubs. The money gap remains the biggest problem. It creates a quality and number of player gap. Second thing is to remember SL will strengthen by dumping two clubs so probably London won't exist in SL to pick off. Nor at this time will "all our players are for sale" Bradford.

 

If Sheffield and Featherstone are top dogs again by this coming summer who will sign for them in preference to an SL club??

 

By the time the middle eight starts you may be facing such as Wakefield, Castleford, Widnes and HKR all with more expensive and larger squads of players you could not sign. No doubt you would compete better if your squad were training full time, but the fact would remain the opposition would have bigger squads, better players and be coming off a higher standard of rugby.

 

The play off will be a seven match marathon not a cup tie and all I am saying is IMVHO the odds will be stacked big time against the Championship clubs. Training full time won't close that gap. Mr, Nahaboo's money might.

 

1. Of course there's a funding gap.  It'd be a little strange if there wasn't.  Will the difference between a struggling team paying £1.6M and a buoyant team spending £1M be that huge?  I don't think it will.

 

2. Can't speak for Sheffield, but Rovers are already signing SL players in direct competition with other SL clubs (James Cording from Huddersfield as an example had 3 offers from SL clubs, as stated in a recent radio interview).  When there's P&R back on the table, I see no reason why this trend won't continue.

 

3. For next season, we've got a bigger squad than both Cas and Wakey and possibly Hull KR.  No reason why that won't also be the case come 2015.  Feisal has pledged to cover full cap spend.

 

4. We know it's all about the money.  That's why Feisal and Mark are investing into the club's infrastructure right now, those investments will be generating £s come 2015, this along with a little top up from Feisal will provide all the funding we need to be competitive.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Remember that the top championship clubs won't be semi pro anymore.

Surely the term semi professional is archaic and redundant

A club will pay a player what it consider is worth and can afford or think it can afford

 

It's up to the player whether he treats this as his living 

Many if not most players at any level of the paid ranks have sources of income as well as their payments for playing rugby

I think this is true of all paid sports

Even David Beckham advertises underpants

Your club approaches this issue quite legitimately and successfully by employing players as part of its community team financed from outside sources and income from these activities

It's the same with amateurism it's archaic and anachronistic if a club can pay individual players then it's up to them. It certainly worked for sharlston rovers and Martin wood and why not

The issue relates to clubs operating within their means rather than whether th their players are 'full time' ' part time' or let one other meaningless term

[keighley]

First thing is to remember that the proposed funding of the SL clubs remains far in excess of the proposed funding for championship clubs. The money gap remains the biggest problem. It creates a quality and number of player gap. Second thing is to remember SL will strengthen by dumping two clubs so probably London won't exist in SL to pick off. Nor at this time will "all our players are for sale" Bradford.

 

If Sheffield and Featherstone are top dogs again by this coming summer who will sign for them in preference to an SL club??

 

By the time the middle eight starts you may be facing such as Wakefield, Castleford, Widnes and HKR all with more expensive and larger squads of players you could not sign. No doubt you would compete better if your squad were training full time, but the fact would remain the opposition would have bigger squads, better players and be coming off a higher standard of rugby.

 

The play off will be a seven match marathon not a cup tie and all I am saying is IMVHO the odds will be stacked big time against the Championship clubs. Training full time won't close that gap. Mr, Nahaboo's money might.

 

All very true. This whole scheme is a Trojan horse. I support p and r but one or two up and down with standards is the only way to do it. This 3 x 8 is designed to keep the lower orders in their place whilst on the surface appearing to be supportive of a p and r format.

[donald]

Just have 4 leagues 3 with 10 in the rest in the bottom league with 1 up 1 down throughout the leagues.............simples

[Scubby]

What ever way we go it looks like the RFL and clubs are exploring ways to divvy up a very modest sum of cash.

 

Do they dilute the top flight to strengthen the 2nd tier or trim the top flight to make a better elite group? I just want the game in this country to find ways of producing more and more players like Ryan Hall, Sam Tomkins, Sam Burgess, James Graham, Kallum Watkins, James Roby, Chris Hill etc. England being the number 1 (or close to number 1) is the only way more revenue will flow into our game. I think we all know that - whether we choose to accept it is another matter.

[roughyedspud]

Just have 4 leagues 3 with 10 in the rest in the bottom league with 1 up 1 down throughout the leagues.............simples

 

 

we aren't allowed to have simple....its has to be horrible,messy & convoluted too alienate fans...

 

we should have

 

4 leagues of 10....top5 play offs....and 1up/1down PR

 

each league has a league cup, 2 groups of 5, winner of each group goes through to the final,league cup games included in season ticket price,it gives the clubs,and their whinging chairmen 4 home games on top of the standard league games giving a total of 13 guaranteed home games...exactly the same as last seasons super league season...it also means every club in every league plays the same amount of regular season games....minus challange cup games of course.,.

 

doing that structure means every club  in every league is playing exactly the same format..where as at the minute the 3 leagues in this country,super league,championship & champ1 ALL PLAY DIFFERENT BLEEDING STRUCTURES!!! ITS DAFT!!

 

the game as faffed about with itself,with constant need to be innovatitive, that much the only option left is to go back to basic and literally start again...

[The Future is League]

Here are the THE FACTS. When we have had P & R we have never won a test series against the Aussies or won a world cup. If you want to bring back P & R don't expect to win a test series aganist the Aussies or win a world cup.

[roughyedspud]

how about we focus on the whole of RL in this country instead of the top teams! and what the top teams want!!

and if we want to beat the auusies is it not better to have a thriving league structure,with thriving junior setups....instead of closing ranks and only worrying about the 12-14 super league clubs & the top 4-5 championship clubs that could be super league clubs??

anyway us beating australia will depend on how many england players we have in the NRL!!

Edited December 19, 2013 by roughyedspud

[Griff]

Remember that the top championship clubs won't be semi pro anymore.

 

Yes they will.

[Ackroman]

Here are the THE FACTS. When we have had P & R we have never won a test series against the Aussies or won a world cup. If you want to bring back P & R don't expect to win a test series aganist the Aussies or win a world cup.

 

It is a Fact not THE FACTS.

 

Here's another Fact. We haven't done that in the SL era either or during the tenure of a female Prime Minister, or during a Tsunami, or earth quake. The list is endless and therefore your point...........pointless?

[Ackroman]

Yes they will.

 

I think I'Ang's point puts your response into perspective. 

[yipyee]

All very true. This whole scheme is a Trojan horse. I support p and r but one or two up and down with standards is the only way to do it. This 3 x 8 is designed to keep the lower orders in their place whilst on the surface appearing to be supportive of a p and r format.

I agree it's a cop out to defend the status quo, it will leave 4 distinct levels and very little mobilisation. ...

[yipyee]

It is a Fact not THE FACTS.

Here's another Fact. We haven't done that in the SL era either or during the tenure of a female Prime Minister, or during a Tsunami, or earth quake. The list is endless and therefore your point...........pointless?

The aussies don't have P&R and ARE world champs...FACT,

Just one question. ...how much of the new talent would have got a chance if P&R been around?

[GIANTSTRIDES]

1. Of course there's a funding gap.  It'd be a little strange if there wasn't.  Will the difference between a struggling team paying £1.6M and a buoyant team spending £1M be that huge?  I don't think it will.

 

2. Can't speak for Sheffield, but Rovers are already signing SL players in direct competition with other SL clubs (James Cording from Huddersfield as an example had 3 offers from SL clubs, as stated in a recent radio interview).  When there's P&R back on the table, I see no reason why this trend won't continue.

 

3. For next season, we've got a bigger squad than both Cas and Wakey and possibly Hull KR.  No reason why that won't also be the case come 2015.  Feisal has pledged to cover full cap spend.

 

4. We know it's all about the money.  That's why Feisal and Mark are investing into the club's infrastructure right now, those investments will be generating £s come 2015, this along with a little top up from Feisal will provide all the funding we need to be competitive.

 

 

So that's Fev sorted then, What's your plans for all the rest, Particularly the ones without a money man like Fev have.

[gingerjon]

So that's Fev sorted then, What's your plans for all the rest, Particularly the ones without a money man like Fev have.

 

The RFL's whole game solution will see them right.

[Griff]

I think I'Ang's point puts your response into perspective. 

 

Perhaps, though I don't agree with his post in its entirety.

[XIII]

What ever way we go it looks like the RFL and clubs are exploring ways to divvy up a very modest sum of cash.

 

Do they dilute the top flight to strengthen the 2nd tier or trim the top flight to make a better elite group? I just want the game in this country to find ways of producing more and more players like Ryan Hall, Sam Tomkins, Sam Burgess, James Graham, Kallum Watkins, James Roby, Chris Hill etc. England being the number 1 (or close to number 1) is the only way more revenue will flow into our game. I think we all know that - whether we choose to accept it is another matter.

Three excellent points made.

 

The clubs are only looking at restructuring to get a bigger share of cash. We are only going to produce more of the players you mentioned by having them play against quality opposition as ofetn as possible. Its no coincidence most of them have come through during the licensing era has clubs have been able to give young players more of a chance without the risk of relegation and certain demise. A successful England has to be the number one priority in all of this. I dispair at the number of people who would rather see their club win the Challenge Cup than England win the World Cup. they are too short sighted and fail to see that while winning the Challenge Cup would be great for Castleford, England winning the World Cup would be even better for the whole game.

 

Im not saying to completely cut off the elite clubs from all others, but with limited resources, doing everything to strengthen England has to be the aim, as then more resources will come into the game and then revisiting how do make the top table open to all can be back on the agenda.

[bamfordsbeans]

It all comes down to money.

At the moment we haven,t enough to both pay the elite and help the championship clubs.

The decision seems to be either of the above -but the reality is the game cannot prosper without both options.

[XIII]

It all comes down to money.

At the moment we haven,t enough to both pay the elite and help the championship clubs.

The decision seems to be either of the above -but the reality is the game cannot prosper without both options.

 

I agree here. It is the elite clubs and more specifically elite team in England that will generate more long term. So for now tell the championship clubs to operate how they are, focus on the elite with the current resouces, and then when more resources are generated be strong enough to then share that more equitably rather than concentrating that on just the elite too.

[keighley]

we aren't allowed to have simple....its has to be horrible,messy & convoluted too alienate fans...

 

we should have

 

4 leagues of 10....top5 play offs....and 1up/1down PR

 

each league has a league cup, 2 groups of 5, winner of each group goes through to the final,league cup games included in season ticket price,it gives the clubs,and their whinging chairmen 4 home games on top of the standard league games giving a total of 13 guaranteed home games...exactly the same as last seasons super league season...it also means every club in every league plays the same amount of regular season games....minus challange cup games of course.,.

 

doing that structure means every club  in every league is playing exactly the same format..where as at the minute the 3 leagues in this country,super league,championship & champ1 ALL PLAY DIFFERENT BLEEDING STRUCTURES!!! ITS DAFT!!

 

the game as faffed about with itself,with constant need to be innovatitive, that much the only option left is to go back to basic and literally start again...

 

That seems like a very understandable and workable proposal, infinitely better than 3 x 8. I would support some kind if minimum standards to be attached to the promoted clubs so that we know they will not be automatic yo yos. I think we also need another two teams to get to 40. Who do you suggest ?, Coventry maybe, Toulouse.

 

On the subject of French clubs, how to we reconcile relegation ? I can see where they could be relegated to the Championship but if they were to be relegated from that, I don' think Cider 1 would be able to sustain the expenses of travel at that level.