The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Ackroman]

At HKR Mr. Hudgell said he did not want to be putting in £500K a year of his and Mr. Crosslands own money so the answer is they are dropping budgets. At Castleford it was reported mr. Fulton could put no more in and that the club was loaded with private debt. It was reported if the directors took back all owed there'd be no club. This is why they have to sell players Rangi Chase being a big loss. Bradford are dropping their playing budget as are wakefield to stay solvent.

Do you really think crowds at these clubs will hold up under low playing budgets with the top eight clubs picking off anyone they want which they do more and more as their own stars leave for the NRL?

IMHO you've loked at the situation the last year or so, IMHO the directors of the smaller SL clubs are looking to the future and 2x12=3x8 may be a plan to accomodate six SL clubs on low playing budgets.

 

Eureka! It was never about Championship clubs but it is one hell of a carrot to dangle at them.

Edited December 20, 2013 by Ackroman

[yipyee]

You might be right but IF p and r returns, it can't be a double standards thing. It can't have 13 teams in danger of relegation if they finish bottom and one exempt. That just flies in the face of fairness. The fans won't stand for it for long.

The thing is catalan would have to finish bottom and a team 'fit for SL' be in the promotion spot ...

As long as all clubs agree to a veto and agree that the second bottom goes down in that cenario then it would be fair

[keighley]

The thing is catalan would have to finish bottom and a team 'fit for SL' be in the promotion spot ...

As long as all clubs agree to a veto and agree that the second bottom goes down in that cenario then it would be fair

 

How on earth can that be fair. If Catalans finish bottom and the Bulls next to bottom, why should the Bulls have to be relegated instead of Catalan. They did this before to Widnes I think it was when Catlans finished bottom but had been granted exemption. It was a travesty then and it wold be again.

[The Parksider]

Eureka! It was never about Championship clubs but it is one hell of a carrot to dangle at them.

 

No Eureka moment for me.

 

The structure fundamentally reduces SL to 8 and allows two championship clubs to remain in a second tier with stronger fixture lists. Debts can be reduced (along with standards) for six SL clubs and two CC wannabees can be accommodated.

 

The SL started with a £68,000,000 debt this season but there's no reducing turnovers and standards for the top eight who will continue to underpin the SKY contract

 

What I'm watching for is how the six SL clubs go playing effectively second tier, how the two CC clubs go maybe playing at the wrong end of a second tier rather at the top of it, and how things go for clubs outside the 16, effectively third or even fourth tier??

 

The idea is competitiveness and something to play for will bring the fans flooding back, let's hope so. The counter idea is clubs playing lower down divisions have all on to attract fans.

 

It will be fascinating but I'm reserving judgement, you can suit yourself of course.

[yipyee]

How on earth can that be fair. If Catalans finish bottom and the Bulls next to bottom, why should the Bulls have to be relegated instead of Catalan. They did this before to Widnes I think it was when Catlans finished bottom but had been granted exemption. It was a travesty then and it wold be again.

It was when all clubs agreed to relegate two to allow catalan to enter. .... fair If all agree before hand!

[l'angelo mysterioso]

How on earth can that be fair. If Catalans finish bottom and the Bulls next to bottom, why should the Bulls have to be relegated instead of Catalan. They did this before to Widnes I think it was when Catlans finished bottom but had been granted exemption. It was a travesty then and it wold be again.

Great argument for not having prom and reg

 

As is relegating a team and replacing it with a weaker one as happened a few years ago

Edited December 21, 2013 by l'angelo mysterioso

[sweaty craiq]

Great argument for not having prom and reg

 

As is relegating a team and replacing it with a weaker one as happened a few years ago

 

Is a club that goes belly up and walks away from its debts classed as stronger or weaker?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Is a club that goes belly up and walks away from its debts classed as stronger or weaker?

You should know

 

Anyway Castleford hadn't gone belly up when leigh replaced them in SL and tigers were far stronger as their performance in their relegation season showed.

 

For some reason also leighs crowds went down in their promotion season surely this wasn't supposed to happen according to doctrine

Edited December 21, 2013 by l'angelo mysterioso

[keighley]

No Eureka moment for me.

 

The structure fundamentally reduces SL to 8 and allows two championship clubs to remain in a second tier with stronger fixture lists. Debts can be reduced (along with standards) for six SL clubs and two CC wannabees can be accommodated.

 

The SL started with a £68,000,000 debt this season but there's no reducing turnovers and standards for the top eight who will continue to underpin the SKY contract

 

What I'm watching for is how the six SL clubs go playing effectively second tier, how the two CC clubs go maybe playing at the wrong end of a second tier rather at the top of it, and how things go for clubs outside the 16, effectively third or even fourth tier??

 

The idea is competitiveness and something to play for will bring the fans flooding back, let's hope so. The counter idea is clubs playing lower down divisions have all on to attract fans.

 

It will be fascinating but I'm reserving judgement, you can suit yourself of course.

 

 

It will be up to Featherstone, Halifax, Sheffield, Leigh or whomever makes up the two championship clubs to upset the applecart and grasp a SL place but the deck seems to be so stacked against them that I would bet, and I am not a betting man at all, that the SL teams in the middle eight will dominate and retain their place which is exactly what the powers in the land secretly thought would happen and wanted to happen when they suggested this farcical fixture revamp. 

 

My only hope is that the 3 x 8 gets the boot and they go with a 1 or 2 up and down p and r system throughout the leagues. I agree with your last sentence but the fascination for me is that of a rabbit, mesmerised by a snake, just before it gets sent to meet it's maker.

[Keith T]

I have been looking at how they can make a 7 game series fair to all and it is virtually impossible.   Of the four Championship teams I was only able to give 2 teams, 2 home games v SL clubs and 2 home games v Championship clubs, whilst the other 2 Championship clubs would have 3 home games against SL clubs and 1 home game v Championship club.     Away from home 3 Championship clubs would have 1 game v a SL club and 2 games v other Championship clubs whilst one Championship club would play 1 Championship clubs away and 2  SL clubs.

 

It is a complete nightmare trying to give all Championship clubs four home games and no matter which permutation used it always looks more unfair to some than others and that is only looking from the Championship clubs angle.

 

I wonder if anyone who supports this ridiculous system has tried to sort a fixture list out that is fair to all?

Edited December 21, 2013 by Keith T

[The Parksider]

It will be up to Featherstone, Halifax, Sheffield, Leigh or whomever makes up the two championship clubs to upset the applecart and grasp a SL place but the deck seems to be so stacked against them that I would bet, and I am not a betting man at all, that the SL teams in the middle eight will dominate and retain their place which is exactly what the powers in the land secretly thought would happen and wanted to happen when they suggested this farcical fixture revamp. 

 

 

You still seem to be on the conspiracy theory that the RFL/SLE (your "Powers in the Land") have it in for the poor championship clubs. Remember the Championship clubs are where they are because of their own failings during 10 years of P & R from 1996 to 2006.

 

The deck is stacked against them because they cannot get the same handout  as their SL counterparts. This is down to SKY very understandably not being prepared to allow the game to water itself down, and spend the TV contract meant to underpin a high standard of "TV product" on the second tier

 

Martyn Sadler set out in LE how the relegation of two SL clubs could destroy them so no protectionism of those poor souls. Beyond that we will see just how strong the bottom four SL clubs are against the CC clubs but out of your list at least one CC club is claiming they will have the money to make the transition.

 

After it all settles down we may well see the deck stacked against the four CC clubs leading to the play offs being something of going through the motions, but in the opening season or two there's some sorting out to happen which will be very interesting.

 

What I'll be looking for is whether the mighty KPMG's declaration of bigger crowds will come to pass.

Edited December 22, 2013 by The Parksider

[Griff]

I have been looking at how they can make a 7 game series fair to all and it is virtually impossible.   Of the four Championship teams I was only able to give 2 teams, 2 home games v SL clubs and 2 home games v Championship clubs, whilst the other 2 Championship clubs would have 3 home games against SL clubs and 1 home game v Championship club.     Away from home 3 Championship clubs would have 1 game v a SL club and 2 games v other Championship clubs whilst one Championship club would play 1 Championship clubs away and 2  SL clubs.

 

It is a complete nightmare trying to give all Championship clubs four home games and no matter which permutation used it always looks more unfair to some than others and that is only looking from the Championship clubs angle.

 

I wonder if anyone who supports this ridiculous system has tried to sort a fixture list out that is fair to all?

 

As clubs only haved to be in the top three or win the play-off between fourth and fifth, I wouldn't worry too much. 

 

Leagues are never fair - there's always that element of luck along the journey.

[yipyee]

As clubs only haved to be in the top three or win the play-off between fourth and fifth, I wouldn't worry too much.

Leagues are never fair - there's always that element of luck along the journey.

Thats the first I've heard of a play off with 4th n 5th!

That doesn't sound fair!

So if a championship club manage to play 7 intense rounds and squeeze into fourth, the ousted SL club can then have another bite of the cherry in a play off??

[Lobbygobbler]

Has the 2x12 and then 3x8 structure been confirmed yet?

[yipyee]

Has the 2x12 and then 3x8 structure been confirmed yet?

I think there's a meeting in January. ...

[Griff]

Thats the first I've heard of a play off with 4th n 5th!

That doesn't sound fair!

So if a championship club manage to play 7 intense rounds and squeeze into fourth, the ousted SL club can then have another bite of the cherry in a play off??

 

Alternatively, a $uperleague club can play seven intense rounds and squeeze into fourth and still be ousted by a Championship club having another bite of the cherry.

 

You say "fair" then demonstrate a bias towards the Championship sides - who already have an edge with their extra home game.

 

Yes, yes - the "Grand Final" in the middle eight is between the middle teams. What else ?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Thats the first I've heard of a play off with 4th n 5th!

That doesn't sound fair!

So if a championship club manage to play 7 intense rounds and squeeze into fourth, the ousted SL club can then have another bite of the cherry in a play off??

That's a very negative way of looking at it.

What's more likely? The SL sides finish in the top four, or a Championship side squeezing into it?

If you think the first, then a 4/5th play-off would give Championship sides the best possible chance to get promotion.

[yipyee]

Whats the point of the league games? May as well just have the play off also where will the play off be played and who will bother going? Will they have a trophy to lift after the game? ?

[yipyee]

That's a very negative way of looking at it.

What's more likely? The SL sides finish in the top four, or a Championship side squeezing into it?

If you think the first, then a 4/5th play-off would give Championship sides the best possible chance to get promotion.

The top six of the middle 8 will be current SL sides therefore a current championship side will never be in that position!

[Wellsy4HullFC]

I have been looking at how they can make a 7 game series fair to all and it is virtually impossible. Of the four Championship teams I was only able to give 2 teams, 2 home games v SL clubs and 2 home games v Championship clubs, whilst the other 2 Championship clubs would have 3 home games against SL clubs and 1 home game v Championship club. Away from home 3 Championship clubs would have 1 game v a SL club and 2 games v other Championship clubs whilst one Championship club would play 1 Championship clubs away and 2 SL clubs.

It is a complete nightmare trying to give all Championship clubs four home games and no matter which permutation used it always looks more unfair to some than others and that is only looking from the Championship clubs angle.

I wonder if anyone who supports this ridiculous system has tried to sort a fixture list out that is fair to all?

Why does it have to be fair (as in everyone getting an equal chance)? Can't it be weighted depending on where you finish?

1st in KPC - 3 home v KPC, 1 vs SL

2nd in KPC - 2 home v KPC, 2 vs SL

3rd in KPC - 1 home v KPC, 3 vs SL

4th in KPC - 0 home vs KPC, 4 vs SL

9th in SL - 3 home v KPC, 0 vs SL

10th in SL - 2 home v KPC, 1 vs SL

11th in SL - 1 home v KPC, 2 vs SL

12th in SL - 0 home vs KPC, 3 vs SL

Think that works out.

Hang on, thinking out loud here!...

Week 1 - C1vC2, C3vC4, SL10vSL9, SL12vSL11

Week 2 - SL9vC1, C2vC3, C4vSL12, SL11vSL10

Week 3 - C1vC3, SL9vC2, C4vSL11, SL12vSL10

Week 4 - SL10vC1, C2vC4, C3vSL12, SL11vSL9

Week 5 - C1vC4, SL10vC2, C3vSL11, SL12vSL9

Week 6 - SL11vC1, C2vSL12, SL9vC3, C4vSL10

Week 7 - C1vSL12, C2vSL11, C3vSL10, C4vSL9

[southstand loiner]

why not a season off and play meaningless friendlys  then put the names in a hat to decide a league table then turn it upside down and shake it a bit and then its totally fair to everone  .

 

well apart from wigan I suppose

[Griff]

Whats the point of the league games? May as well just have the play off also where will the play off be played and who will bother going? Will they have a trophy to lift after the game? ?

Is the point to see who's in the  play-off ?  Trophy ?  Who knows ?

 

I've been saying how bad it is for months.  People are starting to catch on.

[Griff]

The top six of the middle 8 will be current SL sides .........

 

Not sure that'll be true .........

[yipyee]

Not sure that'll be true .........

If London who were woeful last year beat Sheffield( who won the second division) comfortabley in Sheffield, then I would imagine it's a forgone conclusion. ..it just depends on what the order is!

Also what would be better..

To qualify for the top12 to get beat every week or to be in the bottom 12 and win every week?

Regardless of which side of the split you would be guaranteed to be in the middle 8

Edited December 22, 2013 by yipyee

[JohnM]

Does anyone actually know what is going to happen? There is lots of speculation  but what is the current position? THIS is the most definitive statement I have seen so far.