The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[GIANTSTRIDES]

But it's not a serious suggestion.  It's not what I want to happen any more than I wanted Calder to happen.  But that's the argument put forward on here by those who favour  mergers, it makes just as much sense.

 

It's not what i want either,but its a distinct possibility, The Way that Union has grown and spread in the few short years since it has been openly pro, League in comparison is going backwards at the same rate,

 

It may well be unpalatable, and there are plenty on here who could come on and explain any amount of reasons for it, but they won't alter the fact that Union is surging ahead, It is awash with money , It has reversed the trend of players changing codes, and now looks to sign League's best, It is a true world wide sport , While league in this country is still stuck  where it started over a hundred years ago, and shows no sign of ever improving.

 

Union is superior to League in every way IMO other than the actual game, League is far better, But admin ,Ref's, governing body, everything else about Union has left us behind, And that is why if Rugby league doesn't get it's finger out  and start to show a bit of ambition, it will be lost.

 

In short it needs (IMO of course) to concentrate on Keeping the top clubs elite so there is something desirable to sell, Rather than for ever keep changing systems in an attempt to be fair to all clubs. Desirable as fairness might be it is a hopeless cause.

 

There is nothing that i know about that is in place to stop Fev Fax Hudd's Leigh anybody from being as big as Wigan Leeds Saints Wolves etc,  Are they doing that ? no in the majority of cases they are either stood still or have gone so far backwards , they are barely surviving.

 

 It's  not Wigan or Leeds fault this is/ has  happened ,they are doing their part. Sky are not interested in anything below SL so if we don't have an Elite league what do we have that anyone wants ? One thing is certain League need Sky a lot more than the other way round, They could walk away tomorrow without much pain, what would happen to league ?.

Well just imagine what cash rich Union would do to have these elite clubs playing their game in the north ,where they have always struggled to get successful sides, Our top clubs would set their game alight up here, Who knows there may even be a compromise on rules available, Fanciful ? maybe at the moment, But that's not bound to last if League keeps going the way it is.

[nadera78]

Mergers in Welsh Union are almost killing their game.  There is very little interest in the merged district sides.  Many of their best players are playing elsewhere.  Since Cardiff City and Swansea entered the Premierships crowds are down dramatically.  That's what mergers did in Oz and that's what they'll do to in Lancashire and Yorkshire.  As for sides anywhere else, it doesn't take a genius to work out that for whatever reason there is very little interest in RL outside the so-called "heartlands."  Interest stops short at the Wakefield border with South Yorks, at the Wigan and Keighley borders with Lancashire, at the St Helens/Widnes borders with Liverpool, at the Humber, at the Manchester City boundary. No amount of promotion or push seems to be able to spread the game out of the heartlands.  The merger programme will probably kill it within the heartlands and then there'll be no more arguments because there'll be no more game.

That's just plain wrong on every count.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

But the fans have no say in the matter. They pay their admission money, watch the games and that's that.

 

The fans don't want mergers, the fans also don't want second tier RL either, in 1996 the combined Hull/HKR audience was a mere 4,707.

 

It remains to be seen how the fans will react to the 3x8=2x12 if it goes through but if they find it "second rate" crowds could drop.

 

It's worth noting how the bigger clubs in SL are to carry on with academies, whilst the lesser SL clubs may not. I don't know what other costs they will jettison or "standards" they will drop.

 

The RFL and KPMG tell us with no real evidence crowds will grow in the second tier eight, but they could easily start dropping then something else may have to give, like the drawbridge going up on a ten club SL.

 

If that happens it could then be no "Calder" club remains in SL. will the 5,000 fans left then still say no to merger? Probably, but it isn't their choice.

 

Well a lot of them had better start and learn to fish then, Because unless all these clubs who are seemingly getting the short end of the wedge, start to produce something that someone wants to buy they will just go down the tubes, Every new system or format that gets dreamed up all depend on the cash that SL generates, ( whoever these clubs are ) The game below that is what is failing, and if we arn't carefull it will take the whole game with it.

[The Parksider]

Mergers in Welsh Union are almost killing their game.  There is very little interest in the merged district sides. The merger programme will probably kill it within the heartlands and then there'll be no more arguments because there'll be no more game.

 

Fair enough, I'd suspect the alternative if it comes to it will be to select one side for Superleague from each area then. I think the recent actions of the RFL/SLE tell us which clubs they favour for Calder and Bradhuddersfax....

[The Parksider]

Well a lot of them had better start and learn to fish then, Because unless all these clubs who are seemingly getting the short end of the wedge, start to produce something that someone wants to buy they will just go down the tubes, Every new system or format that gets dreamed up all depend on the cash that SL generates, ( whoever these clubs are ) The game below that is what is failing, and if we arn't carefull it will take the whole game with it.

 

The 2x12=3x8 will see what? £2.4M taken from Superleague by Championship clubs.

[Griff]

Don't be silly that would be £11m on season tickets alone

 

£9.17m - the Government want a sixth of it.

 

But I take your point.  A grand will be plenty.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Mergers in Welsh Union are almost killing their game.  There is very little interest in the merged district sides.  Many of their best players are playing elsewhere.  Since Cardiff City and Swansea entered the Premierships crowds are down dramatically.  That's what mergers did in Oz and that's what they'll do to in Lancashire and Yorkshire.  As for sides anywhere else, it doesn't take a genius to work out that for whatever reason there is very little interest in RL outside the so-called "heartlands."  Interest stops short at the Wakefield border with South Yorks, at the Wigan and Keighley borders with Lancashire, at the St Helens/Widnes borders with Liverpool, at the Humber, at the Manchester City boundary. No amount of promotion or push seems to be able to spread the game out of the heartlands.  The merger programme will probably kill it within the heartlands and then there'll be no more arguments because there'll be no more game.

 

 

I can't say i agree with much of that, As i understand it ( and i am not one for stats I admit ) the game down south at Amatuer  level is thriving. unless i have that wrong.

 

The rest of your post suggest we might just as well sit on our thumbs and wait to dwindle away, Because all the evidence says that is what will/is happening.  Myself rather than that i would just have SL break away, They are the only ones doing anything to take the game forward Financially.

The rest of the game can just take it's chance.  Merge ,don't merge ,Sink or swim, dwindle away as it is, till there is just Amateur left.

Or they could make the compeition vibrant again make it what it used to be, with all the Derby's  and the big crowds, There would soon be the elite clubs amongst them of Course Fev Fax etc, but then they would have to find a system that was fair to the smaller clubs.

[yipyee]

That's right, they should have dropped the team which was financially insolvent, playing in the worst stadium with massively declining crowds. No prizes for guessing which team that would have been.

they were right to drop crusaders, but they should of reduced to 13 until another franchise was ready to step up, same with Salford. ....

Alternatively they should have funded cru etc....

The downfall started when a feeder club was allowed to play with the big boys!

[keighley]

The 2x12=3x8 will see what? £2.4M taken from Superleague by Championship clubs.

 

And not before time. A league cosisting of 10 teams in totl and nothing below that will wither and die.

[keighley]

they were right to drop crusaders, but they should of reduced to 13 until another franchise was ready to step up, same with Salford. ....

Alternatively they should have funded cru etc....

The downfall started when a feeder club was allowed to play with the big boys!

 

Are you deluded. Badford are the team playing in a complete dump of a stadium and have lost  8,000 fans in he last few years. And, fyi, Crusaders weren't dropped. They withdrew because they ran out of money thereby saving Wakefield from demotion.

[The Parksider]

And not before time. A league consisting of 10 teams in total and nothing below that will wither and die.

 

Hull, Wakefield, Bradford, Leeds, Salford, Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Toulouse and Les Cats, all the money into that, centralised financial control, no reliance on rich investors. Seven cities!! What's not to like?

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Are you deluded. Badford are the team playing in a complete dump of a stadium and have lost  8,000 fans in he last few years. And, fyi, Crusaders weren't dropped. They withdrew because they ran out of money thereby saving Wakefield from demotion.

 

 

Are you deluded. Badford are the team playing in a complete dump of a stadium and have lost 8,000 fans in he last few years.

 

And there must be something to learn from that, Even in the very worst circumstances they still get crowds that any CC can only dream about, and will in all probabillity never attain.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Are you deluded. Badford are the team playing in a complete dump of a stadium and have lost  8,000 fans in he last few years. And, fyi, Crusaders weren't dropped. They withdrew because they ran out of money thereby saving Wakefield from demotion.

It's well maintained with decent facilities

 

At least they had 8,000 to lose and it still leaves them with an audience that the clubs wishing to replace them could only dream of

[a.n Other]

Hull, Wakefield, Bradford, Leeds, Salford, Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Toulouse and Les Cats, all the money into that, centralised financial control, no reliance on rich investors. Seven cities!! What's not to like?

No place for London?

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Mergers seem to have come back on the agenda here.

Let's be fair, mergers rarely work. There's not many examples you can find of a merger working. Most lose fans and again cause unrest (especially if forced). How many fans would be lost? And how are we expanding by contracting how many clubs we have? If we're going by the "idealistic" reasons for merging (i.e. eventually combining resources, fans, etc.), how long would that take to happen (if ever?). Decades (again, if ever). How many will be lost to the game completely? How many will reform their own club and be happy to support a Championship side rather than a merged SL side? How much sponsorship and gate revenue could the SL lose if it's unsuccessful for many years?

All-in-all, mergers are a huge risk that no fans of the clubs involved want. They shouldn't happen, especially because someone from outside wants it to happen. No matter what ideal fantasy they have for the league, it's not their club that's involved usually.

The situation I see it is from an expansion point of view, but that happens in two different ways. Expansion in this country and expansion in Europe.

In this country, we have an increasingly large semi pro competition that has a number of clubs who could realistically perform just as good as some of the clubs currently in SL. Given the right backing and the number of years at the top, Fev, Fax, Sheffield, Leigh could probably do just as good as Wakefield, Cas, London, Salford, Widnes, Hull KR, etc. That backing comes and goes. That's sport. I don't see it right that some of these clubs are protected because they happened to be in SL at the right time.

Given the right backing, one of those middling clubs could become one of the top clubs. And one of the top clubs could deteriorate to one of the middling clubs. In fact, we're seeing this happen with Salford and Bradford respectively.

I don't think it's right that we should say "you guys are in, you guys are out" based on the opinions of some people in a back office. Those clubs may be the wrong ones and may hold the top level back, and we eventually have not much to replace them with as the lower tiers lose interest. We have enough clubs that could potentially become "super clubs" in my opinion, and we shouldn't shut them out.

Then there's European expansion. Unlike Britain, there isn't this plethora of semi-pro clubs ready to step up to a SL. It is too big a step. It would be like Championship 1 winners joining SL on top if all the extra travel. It would be completely unreasonable to expect a semi-pro side to compete in another country's league. It's a logistical nightmare and would be a complete handicap that would be near impossible to hurdle. They need an alternative route.

I think expansion in the UK CAN happen through P&R. I think expansion into Europe can't (at the moment).

Other than expansion, the other main issue for P&R is plugging the financial gap between SL and the Championship. This is something the RFL have already discussed addressing by giving more money to the clubs finishing higher in the Championship. If they can arrange something, hopefully this will become less of an issue in the future.

One last issue is how long a promoted side has to prepare. It's usually difficult for a promoted side to recruit a good enough sides to compete in a few short months between the GF and the start if the season (in fact, in theory, they're already at least three weeks behind their competitors who finished earlier). When Widnes were first promoted to SL, their season finished in August. They had longer to prepare and as a result had a fairly handy side that reached 7th in their first season (1pt off the play-offs). The NL season finished in late September/early October ever since. I'd advocate a return to finishing in August, and either starting the Championship season earlier or finishing with a different competition.

Just some more food for thought!

[The Parksider]

No place for London?

 

No, it kinda failed sadly.

 

It's a made for TV sport which people keep forgetting, it hasn't seen any decent rises in TV money which people keep forgetting, the Chief Exec of the RU premiership said go for ten. Mucking about trying to placate all the clubs who can't deliver what the TV want seems to have no sense to it.

Edited January 1, 2014 by The Parksider

[The Parksider]

At least they had 8,000 to lose and it still leaves them with an audience that the clubs wishing to replace them could only dream of

 

I thought about a ten clubs league, in which having to play each other 3 times is a criticism. I looked some Crowds up for Bradford.v.Leeds

 

2003

Bradford/Leeds 21,784

Leeds/Bradford 23,035

Bradford/Leeds 21,102

2004

Leeds/Bradford 21,225

Bradford/Leeds 23,375

Leeds Bradford 21,255

 

Not bad eh?

[redjonn]

It's not what i want either,but its a distinct possibility, The Way that Union has grown and spread in the few short years since it has been openly pro, League in comparison is going backwards at the same rate,

 

It may well be unpalatable, and there are plenty on here who could come on and explain any amount of reasons for it, but they won't alter the fact that Union is surging ahead, It is awash with money , It has reversed the trend of players changing codes, and now looks to sign League's best, It is a true world wide sport , While league in this country is still stuck  where it started over a hundred years ago, and shows no sign of ever improving.

 

Union is superior to League in every way IMO other than the actual game, League is far better, But admin ,Ref's, governing body, everything else about Union has left us behind, And that is why if Rugby league doesn't get it's finger out  and start to show a bit of ambition, it will be lost.

 

In short it needs (IMO of course) to concentrate on Keeping the top clubs elite so there is something desirable to sell, Rather than for ever keep changing systems in an attempt to be fair to all clubs. Desirable as fairness might be it is a hopeless cause.

 

There is nothing that i know about that is in place to stop Fev Fax Hudd's Leigh anybody from being as big as Wigan Leeds Saints Wolves etc,  Are they doing that ? no in the majority of cases they are either stood still or have gone so far backwards , they are barely surviving.

 

 It's  not Wigan or Leeds fault this is/ has  happened ,they are doing their part. Sky are not interested in anything below SL so if we don't have an Elite league what do we have that anyone wants ? One thing is certain League need Sky a lot more than the other way round, They could walk away tomorrow without much pain, what would happen to league ?.

Well just imagine what cash rich Union would do to have these elite clubs playing their game in the north ,where they have always struggled to get successful sides, Our top clubs would set their game alight up here, Who knows there may even be a compromise on rules available, Fanciful ? maybe at the moment, But that's not bound to last if League keeps going the way it is.

It is useful to have some understanding in order to see if anything can be replicated. My superficial view is:

 

They (RU) have P&R and resisted the option a few years ago to ring fence and remove P&R - a decision that seems to have been the right one, using Exeter as a positive, although could use Worcester & Newcastle as not so positive. Either way P&R hasn’t harmed the success story of club RU in England in recent years and one could argue it has been beneficial to the championship level.  They still have an elite top layer with P&R as does the successful French club RU.

 

Obviously, the money coming into RU enables them to implement their strategic plans. The money comes from a strong international game which not only generates cash in its self it brings huge exposure. That exposure brings huge commercial benefits to the clubs that would not have been there without the international games exposure. Now the top clubs are probably able to attract commercial interest irrespective of the international game. However, without that international backdrop they would not have been able to get to where they are now.

 

Premiership attendances are not much higher than SL outside of the top x3 or x4 teams. The difference is of course the commercial interest and hence sponsorship and hospitality income. In addition the fans demographics are different and they can command higher turnstile pricing.

 

So for me changing league structures will not make a huge difference. Although I think having P&R can open up the possibility of extra investment at the championship level. As it does in RU.

 

The key focus surely for RL has to be on developing the international game and attracting/widening the demographics of the paying public. Not league structures as I don’t see that bringing the transformation needed, even if some small improvement which I doubt will be the case.. After all one of our once high exposure competitions, the challenge cup, is dying with regard to attendances outside of the final. The challenge cup should be one of our major media exposure and interest generators. That needs more attention than just changing the SL structure.  It should be a key platform for driving interest rather than allowed to wither away as it is with regard to attracting wider interest in the sport. 

 

Anyway I don’t know the strategy of the RFL as it seems to be clouded by league structures but has to include international and demographics issues as well as reinvigorating the challenge cup and not just SL competition. Both need to be strong vehicles to maximize media exposure.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Mergers seem to have come back on the agenda here.

Let's be fair, mergers rarely work. There's not many examples you can find of a merger working. Most lose fans and again cause unrest (especially if forced). How many fans would be lost? And how are we expanding by contracting how many clubs we have? If we're going by the "idealistic" reasons for merging (i.e. eventually combining resources, fans, etc.), how long would that take to happen (if ever?). Decades (again, if ever). How many will be lost to the game completely? How many will reform their own club and be happy to support a Championship side rather than a merged SL side? How much sponsorship and gate revenue could the SL lose if it's unsuccessful for many years?

All-in-all, mergers are a huge risk that no fans of the clubs involved want. They shouldn't happen, especially because someone from outside wants it to happen. No matter what ideal fantasy they have for the league, it's not their club that's involved usually.

The situation I see it is from an expansion point of view, but that happens in two different ways. Expansion in this country and expansion in Europe.

In this country, we have an increasingly large semi pro competition that has a number of clubs who could realistically perform just as good as some of the clubs currently in SL. Given the right backing and the number of years at the top, Fev, Fax, Sheffield, Leigh could probably do just as good as Wakefield, Cas, London, Salford, Widnes, Hull KR, etc. That backing comes and goes. That's sport. I don't see it right that some of these clubs are protected because they happened to be in SL at the right time.

Given the right backing, one of those middling clubs could become one of the top clubs. And one of the top clubs could deteriorate to one of the middling clubs. In fact, we're seeing this happen with Salford and Bradford respectively.

I don't think it's right that we should say "you guys are in, you guys are out" based on the opinions of some people in a back office. Those clubs may be the wrong ones and may hold the top level back, and we eventually have not much to replace them with as the lower tiers lose interest. We have enough clubs that could potentially become "super clubs" in my opinion, and we shouldn't shut them out.

Then there's European expansion. Unlike Britain, there isn't this plethora of semi-pro clubs ready to step up to a SL. It is too big a step. It would be like Championship 1 winners joining SL on top if all the extra travel. It would be completely unreasonable to expect a semi-pro side to compete in another country's league. It's a logistical nightmare and would be a complete handicap that would be near impossible to hurdle. They need an alternative route.

I think expansion in the UK CAN happen through P&R. I think expansion into Europe can't (at the moment).

Other than expansion, the other main issue for P&R is plugging the financial gap between SL and the Championship. This is something the RFL have already discussed addressing by giving more money to the clubs finishing higher in the Championship. If they can arrange something, hopefully this will become less of an issue in the future.

One last issue is how long a promoted side has to prepare. It's usually difficult for a promoted side to recruit a good enough sides to compete in a few short months between the GF and the start if the season (in fact, in theory, they're already at least three weeks behind their competitors who finished earlier). When Widnes were first promoted to SL, their season finished in August. They had longer to prepare and as a result had a fairly handy side that reached 7th in their first season (1pt off the play-offs). The NL season finished in late September/early October ever since. I'd advocate a return to finishing in August, and either starting the Championship season earlier or finishing with a different competition.

Just some more food for thought!

 

 

If there was money for all this, it could be great, But it has no more chance than Mergers have, because there is no way to fund it. People would see the game vanish rather than have anything to do with another club, that has been made well clear.

 

Another thing, it seems to me that a great deal of this debate is about 3 or 4 clubs being given a fair chance, But lets not forget there is just as big a gap between them and the majority of CC's, as there is between SL and them.

 

Ideally for the long term future of League, It could do with contracting along the M62 corridor and expanding in other areas of this Country,  That was the dream i believe.

 

There is lots about your Plan that is desirable, but i'm afraid it's another dream, There is not even half the money coming into League to save all these clubs.

 

I don't have the answers but it seems to me that to weaken the very comp that brings in the money is the worst way to go.

 

To make a system fair is to take from some to give to others, which on the face or it seems fair ( to some ) but there will always be clubs like Wigan who get big crowds and others who get small crowds, thats how things are, Should Wigan have to tip up part of their Recipts to the clubs who get few, to try and help them survive and prosper, It just wouldn't happen because that's even more unfair.

 

I know you haven't proposed such a thing, but in a sense that's what all this is about, and IMO all the smaller clubs would just drain the money away because they have gone past the point of no return.

 

It sounds horrible and unaccepable but many clubs will never get back to where they once were, There is just not enough money to do it, Just my opinion but Far better to concentrate on the Wakey's and Bradford's  who can be big clubs.

 If  Rugby league could be cut to say 20 clubs and the sky contract doubled , we may have a chance, I wouldn't wan't to be the person doing the choosing, even if it needed to be done.

I wish we could start again at 1950.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

 

It is useful to have some understanding in order to see if anything can be replicated. My superficial view is:

 

 

They (RU) have P&R and resisted the option a few years ago to ring fence and remove P&R - a decision that seems to have been the right one, using Exeter as a positive, although could use Worcester & Newcastle as not so positive. Either way P&R hasn’t harmed the success story of club RU in England in recent years and one could argue it has been beneficial to the championship level.  They still have an elite top layer with P&R as does the successful French club RU.

 

 

Obviously, the money coming into RU enables them to implement their strategic plans. The money comes from a strong international game which not only generates cash in its self it brings huge exposure. That exposure brings huge commercial benefits to the clubs that would not have been there without the international games exposure. Now the top clubs are probably able to attract commercial interest irrespective of the international game. However, without that international backdrop they would not have been able to get to where they are now.

 

 

Premiership attendances are not much higher than SL outside of the top x3 or x4 teams. The difference is of course the commercial interest and hence sponsorship and hospitality income. In addition the fans demographics are different and they can command higher turnstile pricing.

 

 

So for me changing league structures will not make a huge difference. Although I think having P&R can open up the possibility of extra investment at the championship level. As it does in RU.

 

 

The key focus surely for RL has to be on developing the international game and attracting/widening the demographics of the paying public. Not league structures as I don’t see that bringing the transformation needed, even if some small improvement which I doubt will be the case.. After all one of our once high exposure competitions, the challenge cup, is dying with regard to attendances outside of the final. The challenge cup should be one of our major media exposure and interest generators. That needs more attention than just changing the SL structure.  It should be a key platform for driving interest rather than allowed to wither away as it is with regard to attracting wider interest in the sport. 

 

 

Anyway I don’t know the strategy of the RFL as it seems to be clouded by league structures but has to include international and demographics issues as well as reinvigorating the challenge cup and not just SL competition. Both need to be strong vehicles to maximize media exposure.

 

 

That is an exellent post,

One of the areas where League trails Union so badly, Is in the promotion of the game, and that leads me to wonder if we have the right people in place.

The point about the CC is well made, The players say that Wembley is still the place to play, yet the comp up to that point is dieing on it's feet, Maybe SKY do as much damage as good.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

That is an exellent post,

One of the areas where League trails Union so badly, Is in the promotion of the game, and that leads me to wonder if we have the right people in place.

The point about the CC is well made, The players say that Wembley is still the place to play, yet the comp up to that point is dieing on it's feet, Maybe SKY do as much damage as good.

And premiership union can stage club games at Wembley and attract 70,000 people

Rugby league stages magic weekend and it gets sneered at from within the game as well as outside it.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I thought about a ten clubs league, in which having to play each other 3 times is a criticism. I looked some Crowds up for Bradford.v.Leeds

 

2003

Bradford/Leeds 21,784

Leeds/Bradford 23,035

Bradford/Leeds 21,102

2004

Leeds/Bradford 21,225

Bradford/Leeds 23,375

Leeds Bradford 21,255

 

Not bad eh?

Not bad at all and it shows what can be achieved and let's face it what can be thrown away

 

There isn't a club in the championship that has pretensions of replacing the bulls that can approach that, or has real potential for growth

'Spending the full cap and attendances of 5,000' or so. Where will that get anybody in terms of projecting into the future ,growing and challenging for honours ever.

The sport needs big clubs at elite level not small ones 'rubbing shoulders with the big boys'. It needs clubs from outside the laughably called heartlands. More clubs with little or no potential for growth in numbers ans demography from within a few miles of each other is a backward step.

We've seen what potential London have and how it has been criminally frittered away. It isn't too late

Toulouse could add a fabulous dimension to super league logistics mean that working their way up through the championship wastes a brilliant opportunity

 

As for standards

Feel professional sports organisations are supposed to have them because it's a good thing, and that is one of the achievements of the way the sport is run in this day and age

 

Copping out and saying considering 'standards' is 'not your remit' is risible. There can't be a thinking rugby league fan around who couldn't sit down and come up with at least a basic portfolio of requirements. And as we have seen they exist already: a ready made starting point.

We gave to be bold and enterprising and outward looking: it's traditional after all

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I think you should get help with that Bradford obsession you have.

There used to be somebody else like that

What was their username again?

[The Parksider]

Not bad at all and it shows what can be achieved and let's face it what can be thrown away

 

The sport needs big clubs at elite level not small ones 'rubbing shoulders with the big boys'.

 

 

For me it's just a business thing.

 

You have clubs next to each other trying to beat each other down for the same players and fans. So space them out. One SL club per area, pick the biggest. Then you can have Bradford and Wakefield with access to the same level of quality juniors as Leeds and Wigan.

 

You get more fans through the gate as there's only one Superleague club to go to. Cut to 10 and the SKY money goes up significantly per club. You remove 100 players wages, and the quality of the teams can improve. Break-even attendances are 8-10K. Attendances at the top ten clubs are already at 10K and can improve on better more intense fixtures between big clubs.

 

10,000 Salford fans said goodbye to the willows, 10,000 Wakefield fans watched the relegation escape, It's not only Leeds and Bradford can pull 20K crowds. Trojan said clubs need each other. Centrally control finances and competitiveness to prevent clubs from collapsing on and off the field.

 

It's a made for TV business whose purpose is to put on a show for a SKY contract. Maybe SKY will put up the contract for once if Superleague actually concentrates on what it is there for. Maybe it can do that if it cuts over reliance on rich men playing out their fantasies.

 

I've heard all the counter points before, it's "not fair" and "If you cut to ten it'll go down to nine, and then eight and Leeds and Wigan will end up playing each other every week" kind of stuff.

 

No London. Switch the geographical expansion to Anglo french adding Toulouse. We're £68,000,000 in debt, just make sensible cuts and push for achievable targets. Dreaming of what one day may be, or asking a bunch of accountants what to do is fiddling whilst Rome burns for me.

[yipyee]

Are you deluded. Badford are the team playing in a complete dump of a stadium and have lost 8,000 fans in he last few years. And, fyi, Crusaders weren't dropped. They withdrew because they ran out of money thereby saving Wakefield from demotion.

fyi crusaders were dropped in a smoke filled room... (from those electronic thingies)....you are very presumptuous that Wakefield would have been sacrificed!