The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[yipyee]

Get the accounts and find out if your interested, it's not just the debt it's the withdrawal of some chairmen from funding their clubs to Superleague levels, the financial collapse of Bradford and Wakefield, and the inability of some clubs to grow even in Superleague.

so why quote the debt when it has nothing to do with it! I agree that the financial collapse of a couple of clubs isn'tgood but to ssuggest that the answer is to take money off other clubs is wrong!

Just one question if I lend myself a tenner am I in debt?

[keighley]

If there was money for all this, it could be great, But it has no more chance than Mergers have, because there is no way to fund it. People would see the game vanish rather than have anything to do with another club, that has been made well clear.

 

Another thing, it seems to me that a great deal of this debate is about 3 or 4 clubs being given a fair chance, But lets not forget there is just as big a gap between them and the majority of CC's, as there is between SL and them.

 

Ideally for the long term future of League, It could do with contracting along the M62 corridor and expanding in other areas of this Country,  That was the dream i believe.

 

There is lots about your Plan that is desirable, but i'm afraid it's another dream, There is not even half the money coming into League to save all these clubs.

 

I don't have the answers but it seems to me that to weaken the very comp that brings in the money is the worst way to go.

 

To make a system fair is to take from some to give to others, which on the face or it seems fair ( to some ) but there will always be clubs like Wigan who get big crowds and others who get small crowds, thats how things are, Should Wigan have to tip up part of their Recipts to the clubs who get few, to try and help them survive and prosper, It just wouldn't happen because that's even more unfair.

 

I know you haven't proposed such a thing, but in a sense that's what all this is about, and IMO all the smaller clubs would just drain the money away because they have gone past the point of no return.

 

It sounds horrible and unaccepable but many clubs will never get back to where they once were, There is just not enough money to do it, Just my opinion but Far better to concentrate on the Wakey's and Bradford's  who can be big clubs.

 If  Rugby league could be cut to say 20 clubs and the sky contract doubled , we may have a chance, I wouldn't wan't to be the person doing the choosing, even if it needed to be done.

I wish we could start again at 1950.

If the Sky contract were doubled, there would be no reason to contract.

As for Bradford and Wakefield. Both have had some really disastrous periods in their history when they were anything but big clubs. Why would you then concentrate on them and deny that other clubs could recover in a similar fashion. That's the whole problem with SL. It's ring fenced and self centred and does not have a macro viewpoint for the greater good of the game. SL, whilst important, is only one quadrant of the game.

[yipyee]

2004 is 10 years ago. I might as well quote Oldhams average in the 1950's to prove a point re attendances.

As the saying goes " What have you done for me lately"? and the answer would be "Well, i.ve had a 50% reduction in attendances and two financial meltdowns in the last two years and our team can't make the playoffs or have a decent challenge cup run.

As they say on shares prospectuses " Past performance is no guarantee of future success".

2003/4 is within living memory, the majority of those souls will still be walking the earth!

Also it is in the professional era watching professional outfits at the top of their game,

Additionaly they got 20000 again for that fixture in 2012 on a Thursday night!

[keighley]

And premiership union can stage club games at Wembley and attract 70,000 people

Rugby league stages magic weekend and it gets sneered at from within the game as well as outside it.

RL stages a club game at Wembley and gets 70,000 plus and another at Old Trafford that also attracts more than 70,000. RU draws better than RL but we have our moments.

[keighley]

fyi crusaders were dropped in a smoke filled room... (from those electronic thingies)....you are very presumptuous that Wakefield would have been sacrificed!

No they were not. Crusaders withdrew their SL membership. They were set to be given a licence before they did that. Youa re right. I do not know that Wakefield, who had just gone bankrupt, were the team about to be sacrificed, it might have been Wigan or Leeds.

[sweaty craiq]

so why quote the debt when it has nothing to do with it! I agree that the financial collapse of a couple of clubs isn'tgood but to ssuggest that the answer is to take money off other clubs is wrong!

Just one question if I lend myself a tenner am I in debt?

Did you borrow the tenner and if so can you afford to pay it back, do your assets outweigh those debts?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

RL stages a club game at Wembley and gets 70,000 plus and another at Old Trafford that also attracts more than 70,000. RU draws better than RL but we have our moments.

They'd better had

They are the two show piece events at the season

 

Not regular competition games

[The Parksider]

1. so why quote the debt when it has nothing to do with it! I agree that the financial collapse of a couple of clubs isn'tgood but to ssuggest that the answer is to take money off other clubs is wrong!

2. Just one question if I lend myself a tenner am I in debt?

 

The debts are important. See Griff's post 2112.

 

Mr. Sadler said Castleford had debts that if called in on relegation could see the club wiped out altogether.

 

This is why the idea that if two clubs are relegated this will make the Championship stronger seems very wrong IMHO?

[a.n Other]

The debts are important. See Griff's post 2112.

Mr. Sadler said Castleford had debts that if called in on relegation could see the club wiped out altogether.

This is why the idea that if two clubs are relegated this will make the Championship stronger seems very wrong IMHO?

If the debts are called in regardless of which league they are in it won't be good news.

Why do you think it will be if they are relegated?

[Viking Warrior]

The debts are important. See Griff's post 2112.

 

Mr. Sadler said Castleford had debts that if called in on relegation could see the club wiped out altogether.

 

This is why the idea that if two clubs are relegated this will make the Championship stronger seems very wrong IMHO?

 

 

totally agree parky, licensing should stay beyond all doubt, the promised land can be reached if a club is determined enough to organise itself off the field as well as on it, widnes is a good example, and i am certain featherstone would make the step up sooner rather than later. a return to P&R is a retrograde step thought up by a pair of buffoons in red hall..........

Edited January 2, 2014 by Viking Warrior

[keighley]

No it isn't your right. So Bradford who never attracted a rich owner (hence the idea they will be sweeping in if P & R returns is pie in the SKY IMHO) should be replaced. Who would you replace them with? This is Giantstrides point? My point has always been if clubs like Wakefield and Bradford cant hack Superleague it's Superleague that needs changing, not Wakefield and Bradford.

 

It takes me back a week when I asked you how it would have benefited Superleague to have relegated Widnes and promoted Sheffield?? You didn't answer, your choice not to.

 

Equally you don't answer why you think that in Bradford and Wakefield failing in SL means the RFL got it wrong at licensing and applicants like Halifax and Barrow should have had the nod?

At least Widnes would have had a chance to get promoted back to SL and Sheffield would have expanded the game to a big city, a major plank in your argument against " small pit village " teams.

As I understand it, if you had your way Widnes would cease to exist at all and be sucked into a merged club at Warrington which would have ended Widnes' contributions to SL and indeed RL for all time.

[Viking Warrior]

At least Widnes would have had a chance to get promoted back to SL and Sheffield would have expanded the game to a big city, a major plank in your argument against " small pit village " teams.

As I understand it, if you had your way Widnes would cease to exist at all and be sucked into a merged club at Warrington which would have ended Widnes' contributions to SL and indeed RL for all time.

 

 

only if saints and wigan merged as well...............over my dead body.

[The Parksider]

If the debts are called in regardless of which league they are in it won't be good news.

Why do you think it will be if they are relegated?

 

Mr. Sadler said that Castleford had several directors who had put in loans after Mr. Fulton said he could not go on doing it himself. Cas have strived to be a Superleague club but have been relegated twice. All through that time Glasshoughton was a possible saviour but it hasn't happened, so Mr. Sadler seemed to indicate that if Cas went down and lost SKY funding this may break the camels back.

 

There would also be the Directors willingness to go on putting money in whilst the club get nowhere, and IMHO the fact that Castleford are used as a nursery by such as Hull, Salford etc may mean the directors have had enough. Indications were from the RL & LE piece that the loans would have to be paid back and for example the ground could be sold for housing to do just that.

 

That's why I don't see relegated clubs as "strengthening" the championship, I don't see that Superleague can remain Super if club "A" can just take all club "B"'s best players. Even Trojan made the point clubs need each other to make a success of a league.

[The Parksider]

At least Widnes would have had a chance to get promoted back to SL and Sheffield would have expanded the game to a big city, a major plank in your argument against " small pit village " teams.

 

 

See my post re:Castleford. Relegated teams are unlikely to be coming back. Coming back depends on the directors and wether thay want their money back/have had enough. As for Sheffield how long would the game have stayed expanded into a big city? The problem is you assume that relegated SL clubs will still retain directors chomping at the bit to return to the top flight.

 

You assume a year in Superleague followed by relegation would not damage Sheffield either. How much loan money would they have needed to compete in SL.

 

All these "pins on a board" people are fiddling about with for the "best structure" have serious financial implications, you forget Workington you forget Oldham.

[yipyee]

No they were not. Crusaders withdrew their SL membership. They were set to be given a licence before they did that. Youa re right. I do not know that Wakefield, who had just gone bankrupt, were the team about to be sacrificed, it might have been Wigan or Leeds.

or cas or saints who weren't in their stadium...Salford also...

[yipyee]

Did you borrow the tenner and if so can you afford to pay it back, do your assets outweigh those debts?

I cant afford to pay it back at the moment....should I take myself to a small claims court?

[The Parksider]

totally agree parky, licensing should stay beyond all doubt, the promised land can be reached if a club is determined enough to organise itself off the field as well as on it, widnes is a good example, and i am certain featherstone would make the step up sooner rather than later. a return to P&R is a retrograde step thought up by a pair of buffoons in red hall..........

 

Pleased to agree with you, this morning our view was condemned as a "fantasists view on how retreating the heartlands to fewer clubs will somehow improve inclusion. Stuff like this is not debate because it doesn't follow previous opinion or the structure of the debate, it's to get reactionary counter argument".

 

I listed 10 clubs and made the mistake of including Salford whose Boss has no guarantee of longevity and wants to short circuit competition with money, and wants to win everything.

 

I should have included Widnes instead because although I do point to their difficulties financially they are resurrecting a strong infrastructure and are only two thousand fans off breaking even. I'd like to think a Widnes in a 10 club comptetetive even league could easily attain that magic figure.

[keighley]

2003/4 is within living memory, the majority of those souls will still be walking the earth!

Also it is in the professional era watching professional outfits at the top of their game,

Additionaly they got 20000 again for that fixture in 2012 on a Thursday night!

They did indeed and that was a response from the whole RL community to rescue Bradford from their self inflicted meltdown and was a testament to the love of the game from the RL fans.

In retrospect, how did it go ? The club are sill in trouble. What was the attendance against Leeds this last season, no where near 20,000, I'll bet.

[Viking Warrior]

Pleased to agree with you, this morning our view was condemned as a "fantasists view on how retreating the heartlands to fewer clubs will somehow improve inclusion. Stuff like this is not debate because it doesn't follow previous opinion or the structure of the debate, it's to get reactionary counter argument".

 

I listed 10 clubs and made the mistake of including Salford whose Boss has no guarantee of longevity and wants to short circuit competition with money, and wants to win everything.

 

I should have included Widnes instead because although I do point to their difficulties financially they are resurrecting a strong infrastructure and are only two thousand fans off breaking even. I'd like to think a Widnes in a 10 club comptetetive even league could easily attain that magic figure.

 

 

in sundays programme for the wire game, there was an interview with matt beech, and he said that he will continue investing money into the club as he sees it as a good viable venture which will in turn help his own business, he has already put finance directly into the club as has roddy snedden, 

[sweaty craiq]

To be fair it is patently obvious Widnes fall into the Cas wakey Fev fax HKR Salford Leigh sheff category in that they will never be elite so should move down and let the elite get on with it, they have contributed nothing since rejoining SL under the licence protection and have gone back to uk and overseas past it's to make up the numbers

[keighley]

The figures quoted are within the super league era

Bradfords attendances and finances have deteriorated from that point

Their attendances have descended to a point well in excess of what those who would wish to replace them can achieve or would probably ever be capable of achieving.

 

What is this self interest that drives the sl clubs in their smoke filled rooms  you speak of. Can you expand on this please?

And their history is that they will nosedive even further unless they return to the top of the league which I don't see happening anytime soon.

In any event, attendances are not the be all and end all for SL membership. Financial health is just as important. Also for the all important Sky TV, 6,000 at Featherstone or Halifax or Leigh looks a lot better on TV than 8,000 at a two thirds empty Odsal.

The self interest in back rooms is the SL members voting in who they want to be in SL, sometimes, as I suspect in the Bradford case, voting on the old friends network rather than on the stability of the club. This will be removed if we go back to p and r. It will be a return to, shock and horror and gasp, some sort of fairness and openness in the way entrance and exit to and from SL is managed.

[Ackroman]

To be fair it is patently obvious Widnes fall into the Cas wakey Fev fax HKR Salford Leigh sheff category in that they will never be elite so should move down and let the elite get on with it, they have contributed nothing since rejoining SL under the licence protection and have gone back to uk and overseas past it's to make up the numbers

 

Correct.

[sweaty craiq]

I cant afford to pay it back at the moment....should I take myself to a small claims court?

You would be far better advised to use the SL licence model of walking away from it and starting again

[sweaty craiq]

I cant afford to pay it back at the moment....should I take myself to a small claims court?

You would be far better advised to use the SL licence model of walking away from it and starting again

[keighley]

only if saints and wigan merged as well...............over my dead body.

Tell that to the merger mania, Lindsay disciples who think less is more. Don't worry, I don';t see it ever happening.