The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[yipyee]

The debts are important. See Griff's post 2112.

 

Mr. Sadler said Castleford had debts that if called in on relegation could see the club wiped out altogether.

 

This is why the idea that if two clubs are relegated this will make the Championship stronger seems very wrong IMHO?

 

Why would you 'call a debt in' in you knew that they couldn't pay?

 

If you were a lender you would set up a payment plan to recover as much as you can!

 

In reality these loans are 'gifts' dressed up as loans for tax purposes, it also allows for bargaining tools to get their own way....aka OK at bradford....

 

Whats interesting is that these 'loans' are common place in soccer but no one bats an eyelid!

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Tell that to the merger mania, Lindsay disciples who think less is more. Don't worry, I don';t see it ever happening.

Who are these people? How is this phenomenon manifested?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

And their history is that they will nosedive even further unless they return to the top of the league which I don't see happening anytime soon.

In any event, attendances are not the be all and end all for SL membership. Financial health is just as important. Also for the all important Sky TV, 6,000 at Featherstone or Halifax or Leigh looks a lot better on TV than 8,000 at a two thirds empty Odsal.

The self interest in back rooms is the SL members voting in who they want to be in SL, sometimes, as I suspect in the Bradford case, voting on the old friends network rather than on the stability of the club. This will be removed if we go back to p and r. It will be a return to, shock and horror and gasp, some sort of fairness and openness in the way entrance and exit to and from SL is managed.

Well that remains to be seen

 

Growth isn't just defined by attendances although that matters a great deal , but in growth as a business. The potential fir growth with the bulls and London is great. Not so with their putative replacements, and again the symbolism associated with retreating further into the so called heartlands is very discouraging

On what do you base your suspicions?

If I were in a position as a club chair or whatever I'd want people competing against me who bring Dom etching to that competition and have the potential to enhance its future

 

Your notion of smoke filled back rooms is as archaic as it is comical

[yipyee]

only if saints and wigan merged as well...............over my dead body.

 

Small businesses merge or are swallowed up by bigger companies......

 

Why would Tesco merge with sainsburys?

[keighley]

See my post re:Castleford. Relegated teams are unlikely to be coming back. Coming back depends on the directors and wether thay want their money back/have had enough. As for Sheffield how long would the game have stayed expanded into a big city? The problem is you assume that relegated SL clubs will still retain directors chomping at the bit to return to the top flight.

 

You assume a year in Superleague followed by relegation would not damage Sheffield either. How much loan money would they have needed to compete in SL.

 

All these "pins on a board" people are fiddling about with for the "best structure" have serious financial implications, you forget Workington you forget Oldham.

And you forget Huddersfield, Castleford and Hull KR and Wakefield and even Hull and Wigan.

[yipyee]

They did indeed and that was a response from the whole RL community to rescue Bradford from their self inflicted meltdown and was a testament to the love of the game from the RL fans.

In retrospect, how did it go ? The club are sill in trouble. What was the attendance against Leeds this last season, no where near 20,000, I'll bet.

 

Whats interesting is that there are still 20000 bradford fans who stay away for whatever reason.....if successful again they will return.....

 

If batley, widnes, keighly, fev, fax, sheffield, doncaster, cas.... had issued such a rallying call would they have got anywhere close to 20k?

[yipyee]

And their history is that they will nosedive even further unless they return to the top of the league which I don't see happening anytime soon.

In any event, attendances are not the be all and end all for SL membership. Financial health is just as important. Also for the all important Sky TV, 6,000 at Featherstone or Halifax or Leigh looks a lot better on TV than 8,000 at a two thirds empty Odsal.

The self interest in back rooms is the SL members voting in who they want to be in SL, sometimes, as I suspect in the Bradford case, voting on the old friends network rather than on the stability of the club. This will be removed if we go back to p and r. It will be a return to, shock and horror and gasp, some sort of fairness and openness in the way entrance and exit to and from SL is managed.

 

you want conditions around P&R....there is nothing to stop the same group of 'smokers' changing the remit to favour certain clubs......aka a job advert that is tailored for a certain person....

[yipyee]

You would be far better advised to use the SL licence model of walking away from it and starting again

 

Oldham, gateshead, keighley were before licensing!

[keighley]

Who are these people? How is this phenomenon manifested?

Anyone on here who has championed only one team for the Wakefield area or for Hull or Warrington/Widnes. The phenomenon has not yet manifested itself as we have had no mergers and hopefully it never will.

[keighley]

Well that remains to be seen

 

Growth isn't just defined by attendances although that matters a great deal , but in growth as a business. The potential fir growth with the bulls and London is great. Not so with their putative replacements, and again the symbolism associated with retreating further into the so called heartlands is very discouraging

On what do you base your suspicions?

If I were in a position as a club chair or whatever I'd want people competing against me who bring Dom etching to that competition and have the potential to enhance its future

 

Your notion of smoke filled back rooms is as archaic as it is comical

And Bradford are not in the heartlands, is that your point ? I think you will find that London, whose potential for growth you are lauding, were voted out of the league in a back room meeting and would have been history if Lewis had not dug his heels in and demanded their re admission to the league. If you thinks that's comedy, well that's your right.

[keighley]

Whats interesting is that there are still 20000 bradford fans who stay away for whatever reason.....if successful again they will return.....

 

If batley, widnes, keighly, fev, fax, sheffield, doncaster, cas.... had issued such a rallying call would they have got anywhere close to 20k?

Point one there are not 20,000 Bradford fans. Those big attendances would have had at least 5,000 from Leeds if not more.

Secondly, the 20,000 resurrection attendance, in my opinion, had many fans from Batley, Fax, Keighley etc as well as from Leeds, Radford and other SL teams who rallied to the cause. When Nottingham played their last game I believe 600 attended about three times the normal attendance because fans rallied to their cause ( lost as it may have been).

Bradford may regain their lost fans, only success on their point will demonstrate that. Time will tell.

[keighley]

you want conditions around P&R....there is nothing to stop the same group of 'smokers' changing the remit to favour certain clubs......aka a job advert that is tailored for a certain person....

Yes there is. If I had my druthers, the persons who formerly made these decisions in back room, would have nothing to do with setting the required standards and the openness of the whole procedure would prevent remit changing such as has happened in the past.

[yipyee]

Anyone on here who has championed only one team for the Wakefield area or for Hull or Warrington/Widnes. The phenomenon has not yet manifested itself as we have had no mergers and hopefully it never will.

hull gateshead,

Sheffield, Huddersfield!

Get with the 21st century man!

[yipyee]

Yes there is. If I had my druthers, the persons who formerly made these decisions in back room, would have nothing to do with setting the required standards and the openness of the whole procedure would prevent remit changing such as has happened in the past.

who will set the standards?

[The Parksider]

Why would you 'call a debt in' in you knew that they couldn't pay?

 

 

You'd best ask Griff, or Derwent of Mr. Sadler.

 

AFAIK the loans are secured against the ground so there are assets to be had.

 

When my club packed in in 1973 the Directors sold the ground for £300,000 and all made a tidy sum.

 

Hope that helps.....

[yipyee]

You'd best ask Griff, or Derwent of Mr. Sadler.

 

AFAIK the loans are secured against the ground so there are assets to be had.

 

When my club packed in in 1973 the Directors sold the ground for £300,000 and all made a tidy sum.

 

Hope that helps.....

 

I get your point here.....and i find it a travesty that the directors could act in this way!

 

But the most indebted club is London who have no assets....Salford were similar, Bradford also have no real assets to sell......

 

So if as many think Bradford and London are relegated.....what would be the point of calling in any debt, also if they are relegated does that reduce SL debt to around 48 mill?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

And Bradford are not in the heartlands, is that your point ? I think you will find that London, whose potential for growth you are lauding, were voted out of the league in a back room meeting and would have been history if Lewis had not dug his heels in and demanded their re admission to the league. If you thinks that's comedy, well that's your right.

The symbolism lies in the fact that a club like Catalan can be ejected from the competition on the back if one bad season. Toulouse are marginalised and London get chucked out in exchange for this we have a competition increasingly populated by clubs within a few miles of each other with little or no prospect or potential for growth...Bradford is in the so called heartlands but to compare them with the club's that could replace them is risible.

[sweaty craiq]

Oldham, gateshead, keighley were before licensing!

None of whom went belly up in SL and all pre millennium

[Wellsy4HullFC]

In Bradford's and London's current state, do they have potential for growth?

[yipyee]

In Bradford's and London's current state, do they have potential for growth?

Bradford yes, london no

[Trojan]

I can't say i agree with much of that, As i understand it ( and i am not one for stats I admit ) the game down south at Amatuer  level is thriving. unless i have that wrong.

 

The rest of your post suggest we might just as well sit on our thumbs and wait to dwindle away, Because all the evidence says that is what will/is happening.  Myself rather than that i would just have SL break away, They are the only ones doing anything to take the game forward Financially.

The rest of the game can just take it's chance.  Merge ,don't merge ,Sink or swim, dwindle away as it is, till there is just Amateur left.

Or they could make the compeition vibrant again make it what it used to be, with all the Derby's  and the big crowds, There would soon be the elite clubs amongst them of Course Fev Fax etc, but then they would have to find a system that was fair to the smaller clubs.

I've no doubt the amateur game is thriving in the South, and the crowd at Bristol for the recent World Cup game is encouraging.  But it has to be admitted that every attempt to spread the game into a new area, even one as near to the "heartlands" as Liverpool has been a total failure.  Support for rugby of either code in these islands is patchy, we live in a patch where rugby caught on, and became a pro sport.  But in other patches where rugby was popular the RFU saw to it that the "professionalism" virus didn't spread, and that's why IMO we have a problem. In the areas (other than the RL heartlands) where rugby is a popular sport, Union is so entrenched as to be next to impossible to supplant, and in the other areas the mighty soccer rules.  I don't like it, I've never liked it, but we have to confront actuality at some point.  

When Union went pro in 1995, Eddie Butler wrote in the Observer that in ten years they'd be playing RL but calling it RU.  He may have been wrong in his timescale, but long term I think he may have been correct.

[Ackroman]

In Bradford's and London's current state, do they have potential for growth?

 

A point well made. How many Bradfordians have suddenly got short arms and long pockets because there's no trust? It's one of those wonderful northern phenomena.

[Ackroman]

I've no doubt the amateur game is thriving in the South, and the crowd at Bristol for the recent World Cup game is encouraging.  But it has to be admitted that every attempt to spread the game into a new area, even one as near to the "heartlands" as Liverpool has been a total failure.  Support for rugby of either code in these islands is patchy, we live in a patch where rugby caught on, and became a pro sport.  But in other patches where rugby was popular the RFU saw to it that the "professionalism" virus didn't spread, and that's why IMO we have a problem. In the areas (other than the RL heartlands) where rugby is a popular sport, Union is so entrenched as to be next to impossible to supplant, and in the other areas the mighty soccer rules.  I don't like it, I've never liked it, but we have to confront actuality at some point.  

When Union went pro in 1995, Eddie Butler wrote in the Observer that in ten years they'd be playing RL but calling it RU.  He may have been wrong in his timescale, but long term I think he may have been correct.

 

I think this is an excellent point. RL has found it's niche within a niche. What I want to know is why this is a problem?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

In Bradford's and London's current state, do they have potential for growth?

The point is to get out of theirr current state and exploit that potential

 

What potential do their possible replacements have for growth on and off the field apart from shirt term gigs as spear carriers?

Edited January 2, 2014 by l'angelo mysterioso

[The Parksider]

I get your point here.....and i find it a travesty that the directors could act in this way!

But the most indebted club is London who have no assets....Salford were similar, Bradford also have no real assets to sell......

 

So if as many think Bradford and London are relegated.....what would be the point of calling in any debt, also if they are relegated does that reduce SL debt to around 48 mill?

No point. But my point was more about running a Superleague that doesn't run up debts in conjunction with clubs collapsing due to those debts. In the case of Salford I dread to think how much John Wilkinson was owed but IIRC he wrote it off. Whilst you may say there were no assets, people were asking about where the money for the sale of the Willows went.

That's of no matter in terms of the debate to hand, but what was a problem at the time was without Koukash Salford had nothing. Relegation for them meant turning into a Swinton and having to literally start from scratch.

In the case of London it may be mr. Hughes will give up rather than run a championship side. In the case of Bradford yes they are assetless apart from all the players they put up for sale. However I am sure people will be happy for them to start again in CC1 should they fold from the debt.

This is what financial difficulties can do to SL clubs who are relegated. Turn now to those who are promoted without money. They have one season to survive, they have to spend as much as they can on a team and if it comes bottom then that's all wasted.

This isn't me saying something controversial to get a reaction, It's a very common viewpoint on here that being relegated from SL can cause devastation to clubs and being promoted can also be a bridge too far for other clubs and leave them in a mess.

Yet were pushing pins around a board saying that P & R is a great way to choose the strongest clubs for Superleague when in fact it seems to be something that does a good job at weakening clubs wether going up or down. I know people feel strongly about fairness and clubs being given a chance, but it seems to me that could come at a great cost in reality.