The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[keighley]

You seem to equate heartlands with success, anything outside that a failure.

There's a long long list of heartland clubs that have failed, shadows of their former selves. You and i have watched as their fanbases have turned fron thousands to hundreds, watched to the point where local businessmen won't touch them so supporters have to run the clubs instead on shoestring budgets. Hunslet, York, Swinton, Bramley, Rochdale, Oldham etc etc.How many have turned to DR to become "A" teams???.

Yet somehow the re-introduction of P & R is supposed to arrest that decline. What a dreadfully simplistic panacea?? I wouldn't mind giving it a go if we hadn't tried it before.

So what is the reason for the heartlands decline that has badly affected the clubs who ended up with long spells in CC1? then the decline of Championship clubs running around on crowds in the hundreds acting as SL "A" teams. Now we have SL teams collapsing financially. The cancer has spread from the bottom up and is eating away at the game. The roots are rotting.

We hold on to our vibrancy in places like leeds, Wigan, Hull, where clubs have the resources to get a crowd, and to develop great local players. IMVHO Logically that is the answer more big clubs who can resist the decline of the game.

And where are these big clubs ? You denigrate the chances of Sheffield, a large city or Gateshead in the Newcastle conurbation. It was not so long ago that you were rubbishing Salford and declaring Manchester a lost cause. York, a no no, Doncaster a no no. Just where are these big city mega clubs you drool about ?

[The Parksider]

Was it Oldham being in SL that was the problem or a culmination of years of struggle with debt in a deteriorating ground. I think it was more likely the latter. Ultimately though it went no worse than Wakefield, Bradford or Salford. It was only the lack of an investor to save them which differentiated them from those other failing SL clubs.

 

Where are you going to end with this silly rhetoric where Huyton were as strong a club as Wigan only problem was they didn't get a millionaire investor.

 

Equally Bramley were top class Superleague material only to be surpassed by Leeds because Leeds had the big investors.

 

The thread is about the best structure for Rugby League in the here and now. You say it's standards led P & R so what is the standard then? Does a club have to have a big investor to be in Superleague?

 

Is a rich mans league your preference?

[The Parksider]

And where are these big clubs ? You denigrate the chances of Sheffield, a large city or Gateshead in the Newcastle conurbation. It was not so long ago that you were rubbishing Salford and declaring Manchester a lost cause. York, a no no, Doncaster a no no. Just where are these big city mega clubs you drool about ?

 

Salford, Hull, Perpignan, Toulouse, Hull, Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield,.....

 

Time to agree to disagree.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

It might well be said that Hull were prevented from going belly up by merging with Gateshead. As I recall, the refusal to allow Keighley into SL actually resulted in their going bankrupt.

Was it Oldham being in SL that was the problem or a culmination of years of struggle with debt in a deteriorating ground. I think it was more likely the latter. Ultimately though it went no worse than Wakefield, Bradford or Salford. It was only the lack of an investor to save them which differentiated them from those other failing SL clubs.

 

 

Which once again proves the point that it is Money that makes the game work, Promoting a club ( i have nothing against P&R, But unless they can survive financially it is just going through the motions , and it takes over 3 million, Which promoted club do you see surviving promotion,? Serious question.  Without the If and maybe's, Do you see anybody doing it, no reverences to failing SL clubs because that doesn't strengthen their case,  The fans wont watch another club. I know which club looks the best bet. are you confident they will prosper in SL.

[yipyee]

The RL supporters in Gateshead and Sheffield are ecstatic about the success of those mergers from their perspective and flock in their tens of thousands to the SL home games of the merged clubs which are held in their cities every season. Also these were not mergers in the sense of consolidating an area with two closely situated teams to create a mega team. How far is Gateshead from Hull and Sheffield from Huddersfield ?

Also there was a one million pound bribe available to teams who merged. I don't think this is still being held as a carrot to tempt clubs to merge any longer.

I repeat my statement that there will not be any more merger in the foreseeable future.

The 21st century looks like introducing p and r soon. I'm certainly looking forward to this new age development.

just admit you were wrong man! You said there was no mergers and there was,

the mergers were for Huddersfield and hulls benefit and they are doing just fine! These both became big clubs....

I am glad the other two club's weren't left to die and aston deserves to be on the honours list in the future!

[Ackroman]

Salford, Hull, Perpignan, Toulouse, Hull, Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield,.....

 

Time to agree to disagree.

 

Whats up? Shouting no longer an effective mechanism? It's nice to ask questions of other posters but continue your own rhetoric based on this wonderful belief that the castle walls will always protect the worthy (wealthy).  If you live up to this statement I'll be amazed

[The Parksider]

well maybe a last through of the dice, give them (Bradford) their fair share of revenue!

 

The SL clubs rip off half of Bradford's SKY money just after they have had financial problems.

 

Result? Bradford "have a huge amount of issues"

 

Reason: "Bradford are poorly managed"

 

Call Sheffield in to replace them. Sheffield are as big as Bradford but for a big investor over many many years?? Sorry for the sarcasm but what is the best structure for the game in the REAL world and why?

[The Parksider]

Whats up? Shouting no longer an effective mechanism? It's nice to ask questions of other posters but continue your own rhetoric based on this wonderful belief that the castle walls will always protect the worthy (wealthy).  If you live up to this statement I'll be amazed

 

Good evening Sir. Hope all is well in Reeth. I'll be amazed if you ever post your ideas for the best structure for Rugby League going forward? I would welcome them. Have a pint in the Buck for me.

[yipyee]

It might well be said that Hull were prevented from going belly up by merging with Gateshead. As I recall, the refusal to allow Keighley into SL actually resulted in their going bankrupt.

Was it Oldham being in SL that was the problem or a culmination of years of struggle with debt in a deteriorating ground. I think it was more likely the latter. Ultimately though it went no worse than Wakefield, Bradford or Salford. It was only the lack of an investor to save them which differentiated them from those other failing SL clubs.

so your saying keighley overspent and tried to buy a SL place? Are you saying they failed without sky money? .....

Psstt Bradford currently are being starved of sky money whats the difference?

(The rfl bought both grounds as well!)

[Ackroman]

Which once again proves the point that it is Money that makes the game work, Promoting a club ( i have nothing against P&R, But unless they can survive financially it is just going through the motions , and it takes over 3 million, Which promoted club do you see surviving promotion,? Serious question.  Without the If and maybe's, Do you see anybody doing it, no reverences to failing SL clubs because that doesn't strengthen their case,  The fans wont watch another club. I know which club looks the best bet. are you confident they will prosper in SL.

 

Who said money isn't important?!  What you've proven again and again is that whatever the route your own club took to get to Super League, is not one you are prepared to accept for others. You want the Ken Davey millions on the table upfront for other pretenders. Huddersfield didn't get a big cheque so where do you get your ideas from? Huddersfield's opportunities came from a local authority built stadium. That was the root, the chance for the Huddersfield tree to grow. Then came the drip feeding of money, based on results, optimism and opportunities. Now 15 or so years later,shazam, history is erased. The bumping, chancing, overspending, rule bending and blind luck is ignored because Huddersfield always knew they had £3m a year to mess it up....are you on something? The Alfred McAlpine was what the RFL wanted and Kirklees delivered. I admire that but I don't admire the history makers who re-write history.

Edited January 2, 2014 by Ackroman

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Well, hopefully p and r is returning and London and Bradford could indeed be relegated so get ready to laugh or in your case grimace.

The position of the French clubs with regards to p and r is a difficult one. I think they should indeed be relegated if they fall into a relegation spot and take their chances like everyone else but I understand the problems of travel involved in being in the lower tier.

Well hello knur and spell

[keighley]

As long as there is no P&R then the likes of Oldham, Swinton, Fev, York, Halifax will never get up there.  As long there is no P&R the teams at the bottom end of SL have no incentive to improve what they offer on the pitch.  I know what you're saying about Huddersfield, I was there when they last won the RL Championship.  Forty years in the doldrums, but thanks to P&R they got into SL and got a backer and certainly on the field they are going places.  But not on the terraces, forty years of failure means that the fan base is attenuated and repopulating it will take time.  The same could be said for Oldham, and look at the players the Oldham area have produced: the Sulthorpes, Iestyn, Mike Ford, Barrie Mac, Kevin Sinfield, and all these at a time when the pro club has been struggling.  We cannot give up on the Championship clubs. If we do it'll be the thin end of the wedge.

And ain't that the truth.

[yipyee]

The SL clubs rip off half of Bradford's SKY money just after they have had financial problems.

Result? Bradford "have a huge amount of issues"

Reason: "Bradford are poorly managed"

Call Sheffield in to replace them. Sheffield are as big as Bradford but for a big investor over many many years?? Sorry for the sarcasm but what is the best structure for the game in the REAL world and why?

14 clubs SL top 8 play offs, championship winners to 'call out ' a bottom 6 SL club of their choice play over 2 legs, promoted club gets 3 year protection from being 'called out', promoted club to work towards current minimum standards (maybe needs to put down a bond with the RFL with a little paid back after each box is ticked!)

Before you say REAL WORLD this isnt as half as zany as the 2x12 3x8 nonsense, who dreamt that one up?

Also I dont get your sarcasm? I agree with you that Bradford would be far better with the sky money! They are expected to compete with one hand behind their back!

[yipyee]

And ain't that the truth.

P&R never went away! It just changed to a three year cycle! You still had to win something to be in with a shout!

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Who said money isn't important?!  What you've proven again and again is that whatever the route your own club took to get to Super League, is not one you are prepared to accept for others. You want the Ken Davey millions on the table upfront for other pretenders. Huddersfield didn't get a big cheque so where do you get your ideas from? Huddersfield's opportunities came from a local authority built stadium. That was the root, the chance for the Huddersfield tree to grow. Then came the drip feeding of money, based on results, optimism and opportunities. Now 15 or so years later,shazam, history is erased. The bumping, chancing, overspending, rule bending and blind luck is ignored because Huddersfield always knew they had £3m a year to mess it up....are you on something? The Alfred McAlpine was what the RFL wanted and Kirklees delivered. I admire that but I don't admire the history makers who re-write history.

The john smiths stadium as far as i know was funded 40% by Town 20% Fartown and 40% kirklees, K Davy later brought back Town from extinction, which Then Gave him 60% of the stadium, I dont swear this as gospel and you may know better.

I don't know if you have been mis reading my posts, but i have stated time and again, that we need more KDs and i say again I dont care where they get the money, or who they are, apparantly they need 3 million + per year , Lump sum or dribs and drabs makes no difference to me.

Huddersfields HIstory has not been erased by me i have gone to great lengths to express the state they had fallen to, and don't forget that after being put in SL they still got relegated, I wish a K D would come along for every club in the game,

Instead of asking me if i am on something (which i take exeption to ) I think you might better your time with a trip to spec savers, so you are able to read better.

And maybe you would like to take a shot at answering my genuine questiom.

[keighley]

Where are you going to end with this silly rhetoric where Huyton were as strong a club as Wigan only problem was they didn't get a millionaire investor.

 

Equally Bramley were top class Superleague material only to be surpassed by Leeds because Leeds had the big investors.

 

The thread is about the best structure for Rugby League in the here and now. You say it's standards led P & R so what is the standard then? Does a club have to have a big investor to be in Superleague?

 

Is a rich mans league your preference?

No, it's you who are spouting silly rhetoric. Very silly.

Huyton were a struggling club in the lower reaches since WW11. Bramley were always the poor relation behind Leeds and Hunslet in the city of Leeds and have not been in the top tier since the 1960's.

Oldham have been a power in the game, winning trophies in large numbers, since the dawn of the game. In the 1950's they averaged over 10,000. The town of Oldham produced juniors in numbers and many internationals are from Oldham, Sinfield, Barry Mac,and many others. The club were in SL at it's inception and had been in the 1st division for a few years prior.

So the essentials of a strong supporter base, the only RL club in a town of decent size and immersed in RL in a way that Bramley, officially the Leeds A team at one point and Huyton/Highfield/London Highfield/Runcorn/Prescot etc etc never were.

So Oldham, when they went bankrupt in SL, needed only a big money man to bring them back to prominence as has happened with Wakefield, Bradford ( twice) and Salford.

You pose the question "Does a club have to have a big investor to be in SL "?. My answer is that not necessarily but for the most part it is a big help. Nearly all of them have some kind of outside support although I am not sure of the situation at Catalans.

Potential promotes would probably need some outside help with financing and the opportunity for promotion would certainly help them in their search for such persons.

[keighley]

just admit you were wrong man! You said there was no mergers and there was,

the mergers were for Huddersfield and hulls benefit and they are doing just fine! These both became big clubs....

I am glad the other two club's weren't left to die and aston deserves to be on the honours list in the future!

The current clubs have nothing to do with the original franchises and were founded from scratch by dedicated supporters. At one point here was a doubt that the new Sheffield would be admitted to the league membership.

I agree with you about Mark Aston, What a career he has had in the game.

If the mergers were for the benefit of Hull and Huddersfield then they weren't mergers but barefaced takeovers with no thought to the fate of Sheffield or Gateshead. They were sacrificial lambs, slaughtered for the benefit of the two "H"s.

[keighley]

The SL clubs rip off half of Bradford's SKY money just after they have had financial problems.

 

Result? Bradford "have a huge amount of issues"

 

Reason: "Bradford are poorly managed"

 

Call Sheffield in to replace them. Sheffield are as big as Bradford but for a big investor over many many years?? Sorry for the sarcasm but what is the best structure for the game in the REAL world and why?

Sheffield will not be called in to replace Bradford. They will be promoted to replace the bottom SL team if they satisfy the promotion criteria.

Bradford will remain in SL unless they finish bottom or go belly up again and cannot carry on.

What is thought to be best for the game will be known shortly.

[keighley]

so your saying keighley overspent and tried to buy a SL place? Are you saying they failed without sky money? .....

Psstt Bradford currently are being starved of sky money whats the difference?

(The rfl bought both grounds as well!)

Keighley did buy a SL place. The smoke filled back room cabal then decided their fate and refused to let them in the league and the risky strategy backfired and the club collapsed. Had they been given their place, who knows what might have ensued.

Keighley never got their hands on SL Sky money. Bradford have had years of it and still collapsed.

[keighley]

P&R never went away! It just changed to a three year cycle! You still had to win something to be in with a shout!

And that was no guarantee you would be in Sl. It just put you in he queue with all the other SL teams.

[Bob8]

With there being fewer and fewer smokers, it seems increasingly likely that anyone who does smoke in a shady cabal.

 

In a back room.

[The Parksider]

14 clubs SL top 8 play offs, championship winners to 'call out ' a bottom 6 SL club of their choice play over 2 legs, promoted club gets 3 year protection from being 'called out', promoted club to work towards current minimum standards (maybe needs to put down a bond with the RFL with a little paid back after each box is ticked!)

Before you say REAL WORLD this isnt as half as zany as the 2x12 3x8 nonsense, who dreamt that one up?

Also I dont get your sarcasm? I agree with you that Bradford would be far better with the sky money! They are expected to compete with one hand behind their back!

 

Bradford are seized on as a badly managed club by champions of smaller clubs who say those smaller clubs are "well managed" and therefore deserve a shot at Superleague. The list of well managed smaller clubs include Sheffield, Leigh and Halifax who have had their shots in Superleague which weren't well managed but any old argument will do in a storm.

 

My pal Mr. K comes up with ""Potential promotes would probably need some outside help with financing and the opportunity for promotion would certainly help them in their search for such persons"". An admission that no club outside SL has the money to compete, but that is glossed over by "certainty" that persons would more likely come forward with £Millions once they spot that Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Dewsbury Featherstone and Keighley have the chance to get in Superleague year on year.

 

That clubs already IN Superleague can't find a rich man is glossed over, but again any old argument will do.

 

And that takes me to your suggestion and I hope you will forgive me if I point out 14 clubs is IMHO untenable because it's a continuation of the status quo in which several club chairmen  are calling a halt over their continued investments because it's a very costly way to make up the numbers. To condemn 14 clubs to continue under the difficult conditions after next year when London and Bradford may become embarrassments and others follow is not on IMHO.

 

And I think that is clearly the opinion of the SL clubs themselves hence the cut to 12. The cut to 12 is designed to make the league stronger which logically it will hence I feel a cut to ten is worth a look? Of course fans of the named clubs who would be even more shut out by this, so they are up in arms (which is the reason for all the passion through these 112 pages) at this idea.

 

3x8=2x12 is very inclusive it gives each group what it wants on paper. The 8 superleague clubs who want to stay super and stay spending get their eight, two SL clubs are relieved of the burden of Superleague they can't hack, four SL clubs are relieved of the costs of "standards" and having to take season long beatings and can go play with the small boys once they've had their thrashings from the bigger boys, and the small clubs can continue to feel they are in with a shout at Superleague.

 

That in effect we will only have an 8 club superleague doesn't matter, they can become one in name only for two thirds of a season and all will be happy.  Will 2x12=3x8 work? Not for me. Once things settle down I think that we may again be looking for the next "solution" to the problems that the limited resources the game has are spread too thinly, because this "solution" exacerbates that basic problem IMHO.

[The Parksider]

Which once again proves the point that it is Money that makes the game work, ( i have nothing against P&R, But unless they can survive financially it is just going through the motions , and it takes over 3 million)

 

According to CKN from other sources a basic £3.2M is required not to compete (top clubs are on double that) but to keep a foothold.

 

CC clubs are required to turn over £1M to apply for SL which nearly all don't do, and those that can reach £1M will be £1M a year short of what they need as SKY only provide £1.2M. That needs to be found from more fans or from directors pockets.

 

Where the fans are not enough i.e crowds like 2,3,4,5,6,7,000 the SL directors are putting in the difference and that is where I think several have had enough because all they are doing is shelling out to make up the numbers.

 

2x12=3x8 will allow half a dozen SL clubs a financial reprieve. This is hardly going to make them stronger clubs and so 3x8=2x12 is IMVHO an eight club Superleague and a 16 club championship

[Ponterover]

 

2x12=3x8 will allow half a dozen SL clubs a financial reprieve. This is hardly going to make them stronger clubs and so 3x8=2x12 is IMVHO an eight club Superleague and a 16 club championship

 

I'd agree with that Parky and I think it's exactly what the game needs at this time.

 

I do believe however, that as / if the game gets stronger, it's also the perfect structure for the future.   Imagine how good it will be when the middle 8 (whoever they may be) are within a fag paper of the strength of the top 8.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Ponterover

[roughyedspud]

clubs will wither and die if we continue to alienate clubs & fans