The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[The Parksider]

I'd agree with that Parky and I think it's exactly what the game needs at this time.

 

I do believe however, that as / if the game gets stronger, it's also the perfect structure for the future.   Imagine how good it will be when the middle 8 (whoever they may be) are within a fag paper of the strength of the top 8.

I'm perfectly happy to stand back and see how this pans out if it happens.

With no axe to grind I fear that the fans reaction will be anyone below the eight are second rate clubs (with respect) and so the lower SL clubs may follow the fate of our current second tier - lower ageing crowds and less private financial backing.

However until we have tried it I do not know if it may actually attract fans. That's what KPMG say and what the RFL believe. It's at loggerheads with RL & LE studies on this but hey ho.

[Ackroman]

Good evening Sir. Hope all is well in Reeth. I'll be amazed if you ever post your ideas for the best structure for Rugby League going forward? I would welcome them. Have a pint in the Buck for me.

 

I've said many times I like the 3x8 and I have explained why. At the root of the improvements in opportunities you can look at the 1 divisional structure of RL. Under that system a team in 14th was likely to win about half their games, currently it's a fraction of that. Similarly the club in 15th would have a similar record rather than a whole load of wins against much poorer teams.

 

The 3x8 will bring clubs closer together, the games will be more competitive, the teams at the top of the structure are the flagship, they currently are, they will continue to be and there will be fluidity because teams like Bradford and Salford will want to compete in that group. The middle group are the Yo-yo group who historically struggled under P&R to get a foothold. Now they have time. The bottom 8 test the water, less resources but more opportunities to attract investment than currently. The bottom league is the development league. Learn how to be an RL club based on sound models.

 

I don't see any distinction in clubs. A club has resources to fund it's team and backroom, if it's 75% full time in the middle 8, then that club will pull off the odd shock and will be in the shop window.

 

There is more money out there and there are fabulous opportunities. I've said elsewhere that currently professional football clubs have academies, not just for player but for administrators, referee's and coaches. This attracts money, big money. I did my level 1 FA coaching badge with nearly a dozen Middlesbrough academy kids. The money comes from the government via schools. You can deliver the program and make 40% net profit.I know this because I do it.

 

RL clubs, sitting at the heart of the community in an inclusive progressive sport is a big, big sell. Schools would love it, government would love it, sponsors would be falling over themselves. RL would be developing it's needs from the grass roots. Best practice, and overwhelming inclusivity for the majority of the community.

 

There are other opportunities. Such as charity status or CIC status for clubs. This attracts far more grants than for limited companies.

 

Or the alternative is to look through the same eyes, at the same problems and see no other way. I hope this answers your question and the question of others.

[Griff]

Why would you 'call a debt in' in you knew that they couldn't pay?

 

If you were a lender you would set up a payment plan to recover as much as you can!

 

In reality these loans are 'gifts' dressed up as loans for tax purposes, it also allows for bargaining tools to get their own way....aka OK at bradford....

 

Whats interesting is that these 'loans' are common place in soccer but no one bats an eyelid!

 

You might call in a debt the company couldn't pay because some other muggins frequently comes along to take over your debt.

 

What's the tax advantage, then ?  Just asking, like.

[Griff]

You'd best ask Griff, or Derwent of Mr. Sadler.

 

AFAIK the loans are secured against the ground so there are assets to be had.

 

When my club packed in in 1973 the Directors sold the ground for £300,000 and all made a tidy sum.

 

Hope that helps.....

 

The best example of this is Third Lanark.  They were in the top division in 1962, sold out to some asset stripper for a pittance who then sold off all the players.  The club plummeted down to the bottom of Div 2 (there were only two divisions in those days) and into oblivion.

[redjonn]

I've said many times I like the 3x8 and I have explained why. At the root of the improvements in opportunities you can look at the 1 divisional structure of RL. Under that system a team in 14th was likely to win about half their games, currently it's a fraction of that. Similarly the club in 15th would have a similar record rather than a whole load of wins against much poorer teams.

 

The 3x8 will bring clubs closer together, the games will be more competitive, the teams at the top of the structure are the flagship, they currently are, they will continue to be and there will be fluidity because teams like Bradford and Salford will want to compete in that group. The middle group are the Yo-yo group who historically struggled under P&R to get a foothold. Now they have time. The bottom 8 test the water, less resources but more opportunities to attract investment than currently. The bottom league is the development league. Learn how to be an RL club based on sound models.

 

I don't see any distinction in clubs. A club has resources to fund it's team and backroom, if it's 75% full time in the middle 8, then that club will pull off the odd shock and will be in the shop window.

 

There is more money out there and there are fabulous opportunities. I've said elsewhere that currently professional football clubs have academies, not just for player but for administrators, referee's and coaches. This attracts money, big money. I did my level 1 FA coaching badge with nearly a dozen Middlesbrough academy kids. The money comes from the government via schools. You can deliver the program and make 40% net profit.I know this because I do it.

 

RL clubs, sitting at the heart of the community in an inclusive progressive sport is a big, big sell. Schools would love it, government would love it, sponsors would be falling over themselves. RL would be developing it's needs from the grass roots. Best practice, and overwhelming inclusivity for the majority of the community.

 

There are other opportunities. Such as charity status or CIC status for clubs. This attracts far more grants than for limited companies.

 

Or the alternative is to look through the same eyes, at the same problems and see no other way. I hope this answers your question and the question of others.

 

Why not achieve the same intensity of games by having a league of x8 (can always play each other x3 times as per the 12into3x8) from the start without the shenanigans of the first part or x10 size league..

[yipyee]

And that was no guarantee you would be in Sl. It just put you in he queue with all the other SL teams.

there was a quarentee that one cc club be promoted each cycle!

[Wellsy4HullFC]

Can't we all just get along?

[yipyee]

Bradford are seized on as a badly managed club by champions of smaller clubs who say those smaller clubs are "well managed" and therefore deserve a shot at Superleague. The list of well managed smaller clubs include Sheffield, Leigh and Halifax who have had their shots in Superleague which weren't well managed but any old argument will do in a storm.

My pal Mr. K comes up with ""Potential promotes would probably need some outside help with financing and the opportunity for promotion would certainly help them in their search for such persons"". An admission that no club outside SL has the money to compete, but that is glossed over by "certainty" that persons would more likely come forward with £Millions once they spot that Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Dewsbury Featherstone and Keighley have the chance to get in Superleague year on year.

That clubs already IN Superleague can't find a rich man is glossed over, but again any old argument will do.

And that takes me to your suggestion and I hope you will forgive me if I point out 14 clubs is IMHO untenable because it's a continuation of the status quo in which several club chairmen are calling a halt over their continued investments because it's a very costly way to make up the numbers. To condemn 14 clubs to continue under the difficult conditions after next year when London and Bradford may become embarrassments and others follow is not on IMHO.

And I think that is clearly the opinion of the SL clubs themselves hence the cut to 12. The cut to 12 is designed to make the league stronger which logically it will hence I feel a cut to ten is worth a look? Of course fans of the named clubs who would be even more shut out by this, so they are up in arms (which is the reason for all the passion through these 112 pages) at this idea.

3x8=2x12 is very inclusive it gives each group what it wants on paper. The 8 superleague clubs who want to stay super and stay spending get their eight, two SL clubs are relieved of the burden of Superleague they can't hack, four SL clubs are relieved of the costs of "standards" and having to take season long beatings and can go play with the small boys once they've had their thrashings from the bigger boys, and the small clubs can continue to feel they are in with a shout at Superleague.

That in effect we will only have an 8 club superleague doesn't matter, they can become one in name only for two thirds of a season and all will be happy. Will 2x12=3x8 work? Not for me. Once things settle down I think that we may again be looking for the next "solution" to the problems that the limited resources the game has are spread too thinly, because this "solution" exacerbates that basic problem IMHO.

each time the league expands to 14 it struggles, its clear additional money is required to operate at 14, fev and toulouse promise this money,

Make them pay a bond and return some of this each year...

drop two current clubs who can't compete financially,

Decision to be made at the end of the season, that is what I would do!

[keighley]

Bradford are seized on as a badly managed club by champions of smaller clubs who say those smaller clubs are "well managed" and therefore deserve a shot at Superleague. The list of well managed smaller clubs include Sheffield, Leigh and Halifax who have had their shots in Superleague which weren't well managed but any old argument will do in a storm.

 

My pal Mr. K comes up with ""Potential promotes would probably need some outside help with financing and the opportunity for promotion would certainly help them in their search for such persons"". An admission that no club outside SL has the money to compete, but that is glossed over by "certainty" that persons would more likely come forward with £Millions once they spot that Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Dewsbury Featherstone and Keighley have the chance to get in Superleague year on year.

 

That clubs already IN Superleague can't find a rich man is glossed over, but again any old argument will do.

 

And that takes me to your suggestion and I hope you will forgive me if I point out 14 clubs is IMHO untenable because it's a continuation of the status quo in which several club chairmen  are calling a halt over their continued investments because it's a very costly way to make up the numbers. To condemn 14 clubs to continue under the difficult conditions after next year when London and Bradford may become embarrassments and others follow is not on IMHO.

 

And I think that is clearly the opinion of the SL clubs themselves hence the cut to 12. The cut to 12 is designed to make the league stronger which logically it will hence I feel a cut to ten is worth a look? Of course fans of the named clubs who would be even more shut out by this, so they are up in arms (which is the reason for all the passion through these 112 pages) at this idea.

 

3x8=2x12 is very inclusive it gives each group what it wants on paper. The 8 superleague clubs who want to stay super and stay spending get their eight, two SL clubs are relieved of the burden of Superleague they can't hack, four SL clubs are relieved of the costs of "standards" and having to take season long beatings and can go play with the small boys once they've had their thrashings from the bigger boys, and the small clubs can continue to feel they are in with a shout at Superleague.

 

That in effect we will only have an 8 club superleague doesn't matter, they can become one in name only for two thirds of a season and all will be happy.  Will 2x12=3x8 work? Not for me. Once things settle down I think that we may again be looking for the next "solution" to the problems that the limited resources the game has are spread too thinly, because this "solution" exacerbates that basic problem IMHO.

As far as I know, Fev and Fax think they already have investors and can hack it in SL.Leigh seem to think that they can manage also.

3 x 8 is rubbish and a Trojan horse. We need one or two up and down.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I'm perfectly happy to stand back and see how this pans out if it happens.

With no axe to grind I fear that the fans reaction will be anyone below the eight are second rate clubs (with respect) and so the lower SL clubs may follow the fate of our current second tier - lower ageing crowds and less private financial backing.

However until we have tried it I do not know if it may actually attract fans. That's what KPMG say and what the RFL believe. It's at loggerheads with RL & LE studies on this but hey ho.

Me too

Let them get on with it

 

It will be interesting to see what happens and how people will react when it does happen...whatever it is.

[The Parksider]

 

 

The 3x8 will bring clubs closer together, the games will be more competitive, the teams at the top of the structure are the flagship, they currently are, they will continue to be and there will be fluidity because teams like Bradford and Salford will want to compete in that group. The middle group are the Yo-yo group who historically struggled under P&R to get a foothold. Now they have time. The bottom 8 test the water, less resources but more opportunities to attract investment than currently. The bottom league is the development league. Learn how to be an RL club based on sound models.

 

RL clubs, sitting at the heart of the community in an inclusive progressive sport is a big, big sell. Schools would love it, government would love it, sponsors would be falling over themselves. RL would be developing it's needs from the grass roots. Best practice, and overwhelming inclusivity for the majority of the community.There are other opportunities. Such as charity status or CIC status for clubs. This attracts far more grants than for limited companies.Or the alternative is to look through the same eyes, at the same problems and see no other way. I hope this answers your question and the question of others.

 

I'm tempted to suggest it's a "fantasists view on how all inclusiveness will somehow take the game to a new level. Stuff like this is not debate because it doesn't follow previous opinion or the structure of the debate, it's to get reactionary counter argument." to quote an esteemed poster.

 

But seriously I did enjoy your post. Maybe edit it and take the five "wills" out and put "mays".

 

Have another pint for that, in fact have on in each pub and then nip down to is it "The Bridge" at Grinton??

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Can't we all just get along?

 

 That would be nice.

[Griff]

I agree with Parky.  Perhaps 3x8 might bring clubs closer together within their respective groups but I suspect the groups will drift further away from one another.  That'll leave deep-pocketed, ambitious directors of middle eight clubs needing even deeper pockets.

[Ackroman]

I'm tempted to suggest it's a "fantasists view on how all inclusiveness will somehow take the game to a new level. Stuff like this is not debate because it doesn't follow previous opinion or the structure of the debate, it's to get reactionary counter argument." to quote an esteemed poster.

 

But seriously I did enjoy your post. Maybe edit it and take the five "wills" out and put "mays".

 

Have another pint for that, in fact have on in each pub and then nip down to is it "The Bridge" at Grinton??

 

That's a couple of times you've quoted me there. If I've hit a nerve I apologise, I've had a chest infection for 10 days so I'm a bit cranky. Hopefully the doctor will relent and pump me full of antibiotics. I just hope I'm in the middle 8 otherwise it's back to the home made remedies.

 

It is "The Bridge" and is great for food.

[sweaty craiq]

I see leigh have now announced the mystery Kuwaiti backer, 17th richest man in the world

[gingerjon]

I see leigh have now announced the mystery Kuwaiti backer, 17th richest man in the world

 

Which one?

[sweaty craiq]

The rich one

[The Parksider]

That's a couple of times you've quoted me there. If I've hit a nerve I apologise, It is "The Bridge" and is great for food.

Ooh no don't apologise, not a problem.

[GaryO]

each time the league expands to 14 it struggles, its clear additional money is required to operate at 14, fev and toulouse promise this money,

Make them pay a bond and return some of this each year...

drop two current clubs who can't compete financially,

Decision to be made at the end of the season, that is what I would do!

 

Good point Yipee, but let me take it one step further.

 

Why not make this a level playing field, and insist that whichever guise or division a team finds themselves competing in from 2015 i.e. 2 x 10, 3 x 8 or some other concoction yet to be devised, a scale of charges to be implemented and all participating clubs deposit that said bond, any club defaulting, having administration problems, going into receivership etc, loses the annual deposit and gets relegated.

 

If managed correctly by the RL and invested wisely, each club may see a return each year on their "investment"  

[GIANTSTRIDES]

The rich one

 

 I think he meant which world.

 

It would be good if this ever comes about. The first question that comes to my mind is , Why would the 17th richest man in the world want to invest in Leigh ? But thats just my cynical side ,  It would make for some serious Derby's.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Good point Yipee, but let me take it one step further.

 

Why not make this a level playing field, and insist that whichever guise or division a team finds themselves competing in from 2015 i.e. 2 x 10, 3 x 8 or some other concoction yet to be devised, a scale of charges to be implemented and all participating clubs deposit that said bond, any club defaulting, having administration problems, going into receivership etc, loses the annual deposit and gets relegated.

 

If managed correctly by the RL and invested wisely, each club may see a return each year on their "investment"  

 

One of the better suggestions.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I see leigh have now announced the mystery Kuwaiti backer, 17th richest man in the world

I didn't know den Perry had moved over there

[keighley]

Salford, Hull, Perpignan, Toulouse, Hull, Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield,.....

 

Time to agree to disagree.

All those teams except for Toulouse are already in SL so where are the big city teams that you want to be in SL to replace Castleford, Widnes, Huddersfield, Hull KR, and others. Also I was in Perpignan recently for the first time and it is a charming place but hardly a big city. You have only recently jumped on the Salford band wagon. You had a whole thread last year where you wrote the Manchester conurbation off as a lost cause prior to Koukash.

These mega clubs that you seek just do not exist. The idea of having big city teams is fine in theory but these teams just do not exist in practice. Even some of the games biggest teams are not from big cities, i.e. Wigan and Saints. RL is not a big city market for the most part in the UK.

In the case of the French teams, their inclusion is welcome and the French game needs all the assistance we can give it but what do they actually do to further the cause of the English game.

[keighley]

Which once again proves the point that it is Money that makes the game work, Promoting a club ( i have nothing against P&R, But unless they can survive financially it is just going through the motions , and it takes over 3 million, Which promoted club do you see surviving promotion,? Serious question.  Without the If and maybe's, Do you see anybody doing it, no reverences to failing SL clubs because that doesn't strengthen their case,  The fans wont watch another club. I know which club looks the best bet. are you confident they will prosper in SL.

That's up to the clubs as to whether they can hack it or not. They will have done their sums. I think the people running Fev and Fax and maybe Leigh think they can manage it.

I don't think they can do any worse than some of the failing clubs whom I am not allowed to reference.

Let them try and we will see whether they can hack it or not. As you say Huddersfield were all but dead and Davy has brought them back to the point where they won the league leaders shield and Hull KR have risen from the third division to SL, as have Widnes from div 2 and indeed Salford.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

All those teams except for Toulouse are already in SL so where are the big city teams that you want to be in SL to replace Castleford, Widnes, Huddersfield, Hull KR, and others. Also I was in Perpignan recently for the first time and it is a charming place but hardly a big city. You have only recently jumped on the Salford band wagon. You had a whole thread last year where you wrote the Manchester conurbation off as a lost cause prior to Koukash.

These mega clubs that you seek just do not exist. The idea of having big city teams is fine in theory but these teams just do not exist in practice. Even some of the games biggest teams are not from big cities, i.e. Wigan and Saints. RL is not a big city market for the most part in the UK.

In the case of the French teams, their inclusion is welcome and the French game needs all the assistance we can give it but what do they actually do to further the cause of the English game.

Parochial to the end

Have you ever visited perpignan?

Has it occurred to you that the team doesn't represent the city but it's environs and the catalan people? There's a clue in the name.

 

What do they do to further the cause of the English game? They make trip to an away game one of the highlights of the season for super league club fans. They make a massive contribution to the English game on the field clue: they've been to Wembley and gave made a big impact on super league. They add a vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, which a,great many fans find exciting. 

 

They make a major contribution to THE GAME

 

A quick Google search, which you could have made for yourself reveals that the perpignan metropolitan area has a population of over 300,000

Edited January 3, 2014 by l'angelo mysterioso