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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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No other business would ever risk throwing a large portion of its customer base in the waste basket in the vain hope that a new product would be a hit and replace the lost customers instantly.

 

Even the disjointed, at times business sense bereft SLE management didn't countenance exchanging clubs like Bradford and Wakefield with up to 25,000 fans in good times for Feathersone and Halifax with less than half that between them (11,000) when they were doing well in the top division.

 

As I say if these big clubs are "mismanaged", then sort out the management or sort out why they haven't been able to stay on an even keel. It's just business common sense.

 

I'm stunned at the ongoing argument that spectacular SL failures Halifax (2003) and Leigh (2006) are somehow great business successes ready to replace old SL laggards.

 

Halifax 1,700 crowds now and Leigh 1550 crowds. They have "Managed" their attendances down in the championship.

Edited by The Parksider
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The present crowds at Leigh and Halifax and many other championship clubs show what a failure the present system is.The new structure must take into account the many thousands of traditional fans who are staying away from the game.If clubs like Salford,bradford ,Wakefield and London were that well organised you could accept the arguement that everything has to be concentrated on the top level -but its not happening.

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The present crowds at Leigh and Halifax and many other championship clubs show what a failure the present system is.The new structure must take into account the many thousands of traditional fans who are staying away from the game.If clubs like Salford,bradford ,Wakefield and London were that well organised you could accept the arguement that everything has to be concentrated on the top level -but its not happening.

if they are staying away then they are not fans! Fanatics will follow no matter what!

Secondly if Halifax can't entice fans to watch them they need a new marketing department! (Thats presuming they have one already)

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The present crowds at Leigh and Halifax and many other championship clubs show what a failure the present system is.The new structure must take into account the many thousands of traditional fans who are staying away from the game.If clubs like Salford,bradford ,Wakefield and London were that well organised you could accept the arguement that everything has to be concentrated on the top level -but its not happening.

It's not happening Mr. B, but the removal of London is imminent. Bradford and Wakefield offer much much bigger fanbases than Leigh or Halifax, but my point all along has been to ensure "Everything has to be concentrated on the top level" by dropping SL to 10 clubs based on the ten strongest areas, Leeds, bradford/pennine. Wakefield/calder, Hull, St.helens/Liverpool, Wigan/Greater manchester, Widnes/halton, Warrington/Cheshire, The catalans region and France/Toulouse.

Then the target you quote has the best chance of happening with one club in each area.

I agree Superleague is a significant failure for sure on more that one level, but on what basis do you believe Leigh and Halifax are the solution. Again they can't produce professional players nor can they stop their crowds dropping??

On your main point of "Missing fans" two points.

1. This is a myth as far as Club RL goes. The number of fans we have now is thousands and thousands more that in 1995 b.s.(Before SL)

2. The world cup brought out thousands of missing fans for the spectacle of Elite International RL. These are the fans who are missing at games and it seems logical to me they want to see top class Rugby league.

So make a proper top class Superleague to attract them. Don't water it down to being something from the past that did not attract the number of fans we have today.

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if they are staying away then they are not fans! Fanatics will follow no matter what!

Secondly if Halifax can't entice fans to watch them they need a new marketing department! (Thats presuming they have one already)

Apparently they are customers

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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if they are staying away then they are not fans!

Be fair, it's a free country. Casual fans far outnumber the "fanatical" which is why it really cheeses me of when fanaticals sit on the pitch and rail against merger. Not that the game needs the latter anyway.

The correlation between RL structures and fan numbers is largely a divisions thing.Top division 9,000 fans per club second division 1,000 fans third division 500 fans sort of thing.

To me people are far less parochial, and far more prepared to travel for their entertainment which they want to be top class. Hence the massive difference when a club drops out of SL.

So set up a top class SL that caters to as many fans as possible. IMHO that's entirely locical.

To create more divisions with 2x12=3x8 goes against this solid principle. But again we go back to the KPMG report that second tier (i.e. the second "8") attendances will rise. Totally at odds with proper research done by RL World (partly nicked from Padge's work on here)

I can only think that the top SL clubs may accept 3x8 because their attendances will rise, the second 8 clubs will be able to play at Superleague without the costs of licensing, and after that they are all "A" teams anyway. A terrible cop out IMVHO.

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It's not happening Mr. B, but the removal of London is imminent. Bradford and Wakefield offer much much bigger fanbases than Leigh or Halifax, but my point all along has been to ensure "Everything has to be concentrated on the top level" by dropping SL to 10 clubs based on the ten strongest areas, Leeds, bradford/pennine. Wakefield/calder, Hull, St.helens/Liverpool, Wigan/Greater manchester, Widnes/halton, Warrington/Cheshire, The catalans region and France/Toulouse.

Then the target you quote has the best chance of happening with one club in each area.

Why the sudden inclusion of Widnes/Halton? Isn't this area already served by bigger teams St Helens and Warrington?

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I agree with Parksider that we go with a 10 team top section-but in no way with mergers.

It should be the strongest present 10 teams backed up with a more competitive second structure of 10 teams.

 

Glad we are close to agreement. However the definition of the "strongest present" top 10 teams is a problem

 

Some on here think Halifax are stronger than Wakefield, Leigh are stronger than Bradford, Fev are stronger than Cas and Sheffield are stronger than London??

 

Your ten???

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Why the sudden inclusion of Widnes/Halton? Isn't this area already served by bigger teams St Helens and Warrington?

 

I think a strong Superleague should not rely on rich men who may not only walk away but walk away with the assets. Yes I know RL has mainly lost it's assets struggling along this last 40 years.

 

We lost Parkside in 1973. It was a multi million pound asset in today's terms. Private individuals took that money for themselves. Bartlett (to Leeds & Hunslet Schools RL) and Lunn (in later years) did put money back in TBF but Hunslet were "left to die".

 

If you take away Koukash then Salford are as strong as the day before he turned up. Left to die by Mr. Wilkinson, a bigger fan you could not get. You could argue this about O'Connor but on fans and players Widnes have always been a bigger club since the early seventies.

 

If as you say they are between St.Helens and Wire then I take the point entirely but where else would we find a strong enough RL club to make the tenth and become self sufficient?

 

Widnes are 2,000 fans off self sufficiency and have managed 6,800 in Superleague in 2005 so arguably they are the best of the rest??

Edited by The Parksider
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Why the sudden inclusion of Widnes/Halton? Isn't this area already served by bigger teams St Helens and Warrington?

 

Why the sudden inclusion of Widnes/Halton? Isn't this area already served by bigger teams St Helens and Warrington?

No

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local

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It's not happening Mr. B, but the removal of London is imminent. Bradford and Wakefield offer much much bigger fanbases than Leigh or Halifax, but my point all along has been to ensure "Everything has to be concentrated on the top level" by dropping SL to 10 clubs based on the ten strongest areas, Leeds, bradford/pennine. Wakefield/calder, Hull, St.helens/Liverpool, Wigan/Greater manchester, Widnes/halton, Warrington/Cheshire, The catalans region and France/Toulouse.

Then the target you quote has the best chance of happening with one club in each area.

I agree Superleague is a significant failure for sure on more that one level, but on what basis do you believe Leigh and Halifax are the solution. Again they can't produce professional players nor can they stop their crowds dropping??

On your main point of "Missing fans" two points.

1. This is a myth as far as Club RL goes. The number of fans we have now is thousands and thousands more that in 1995 b.s.(Before SL)

2. The world cup brought out thousands of missing fans for the spectacle of Elite International RL. These are the fans who are missing at games and it seems logical to me they want to see top class Rugby league.

So make a proper top class Superleague to attract them. Don't water it down to being something from the past that did not attract the number of fans we have today.

 

Your area's are quite selective... i.e. Saints, Widnes, and Warrington are very very close to each other, e.g.... that is 5mins from saints ground to Widnes ground, 10mins to Warrington ground, etc.   So why take a different approach to Pennine, Calder and Hull.  

 

I know they may be different towns but they are all blending into each other nowadays regards the suburbs.  Plus a lot of people moving in from Liverpool and other surrounds that have less allegiance or none to the actual town they live in.   Just looking at the logic in the longer term as the towns continue to dilute from their traditional  demographic.  For me that's one of the problems of ring fencing a select few.

 

I agree with reducing the number of teams in the top league, but as per many posts and discussions I think P&R is essential to the health of the sport over the longer term and your arguments have not persuaded me one iota on P&R. 

Edited by redjonn
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Your area's are quite selective... i.e. Saints, Widnes, and Warrington are very very close to each other, e.g.... that is 5mins from saints ground to Widnes ground, 10mins to Warrington ground, etc.   So why take a different approach to Pennine, Calder and Hull.  

 

Well I'm working on the best business plan for SL IM  own VHO.

 

I do invite you good sir to make your own selections of the ten clubs likely to serve as much of the RL audience as possible, without taking the same fans off each other. The other factor is those clubs must be sizable clubs who have proved themselves. Don't pick Keighley instead of Bradford!!

 

I'd find your picks fascinating......

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I think a strong Superleague should not rely on rich men who may not only walk away but walk away with the assets. Yes I know RL has mainly lost it's assets struggling along this last 40 years.

We lost Parkside in 1973. It was a multi million pound asset in today's terms. Private individuals took that money for themselves. Bartlett (to Leeds & Hunslet Schools RL) and Lunn (in later years) did put money back in TBF but Hunslet were "left to die".

If you take away Koukash then Salford are as strong as the day before he turned up. Left to die by Mr. Wilkinson, a bigger fan you could not get. You could argue this about O'Connor but on fans and players Widnes have always been a bigger club since the early seventies.

If as you say they are between St.Helens and Wire then I take the point entirely but where else would we find a strong enough RL club to make the tenth and become self sufficient?

Widnes are 2,000 fans off self sufficiency and have managed 6,800 in Superleague in 2005 so arguably they are the best of the rest??

It's difficult to argue against this post. I don't think you needed to add anything about regions the clubs serve in the original post you made.

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Widnes are 2,000 fans off self sufficiency and have managed 6,800 in Superleague in 2005 so arguably they are the best of the rest??

you counter yourself with this comment! You say to drop to ten strong clubs, then you through one in to make up the numbers!

Also why widnes you could add any club to make up the numbers!

If you had ten with p&r then this tenth spot would be the yoyo spot.....

FWIW salford would be in my ten instead of widnes......

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Well I'm working on the best business plan for SL IM  own VHO.

 

I do invite you good sir to make your own selections of the ten clubs likely to serve as much of the RL audience as possible, without taking the same fans off each other. The other factor is those clubs must be sizable clubs who have proved themselves. Don't pick Keighley instead of Bradford!!

 

I'd find your picks fascinating......

 

The difference is I would have P&R do that selection... rather that an individuals or group thinking based upon some criteria that would almost certainly include self interest/centered, prejudiced/bias thinking upon future factors that may well not be fully assessed and would certainly upset large pools of fans that it would be a such a negative impact as to accelerate a downward spiral rather than revitilize the sport.   (not saying you are being self interest/centered just that it would be hard for any selection group not to be)

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Anyway, back to the original point of the thread ... it was interesting to see in the League Express poll that Twelves and Eights is out of favour by roughly 2:1 - albeit in a relatively small number of respondents (500 ish).

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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You are not protecting the individual club, you are protecting the games customers.

 

No other business would ever risk throwing a large portion of its customer base in the waste basket in the vain hope that a new product would be a hit and replace the lost customers instantly.

 

Its madness.

That's exactly what mergers would do.

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"Rock solid sure" is a term you made up. I do not discount.....

 

1. Rich cavalry coming over the hill to save all clubs

2. Massive attendances in the second 8 play off

 

I'm working on two things. likelihood,and a very informative thread where a gentleman outlined the decline in TV money for RL 1996 to date. Some of that decline was where our deal stood still whilst more progressive sports got more. I would welcome a reference to that thread anyone. I'd welcome you going on receive and not transmit all the time.

 

One simple principle you may think about whilst a kind person may reference which thread it was, is that SKY want an elite top class league. I'm suggesting we give them that. Very simple plan.

Based on your concept of what constitutes an elite league, namely mergers, downsizing and ring fencing. That's not my vision.

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I think a strong Superleague should not rely on rich men who may not only walk away but walk away with the assets. Yes I know RL has mainly lost it's assets struggling along this last 40 years.

 

We lost Parkside in 1973. It was a multi million pound asset in today's terms. Private individuals took that money for themselves. Bartlett (to Leeds & Hunslet Schools RL) and Lunn (in later years) did put money back in TBF but Hunslet were "left to die".

 

If you take away Koukash then Salford are as strong as the day before he turned up. Left to die by Mr. Wilkinson, a bigger fan you could not get. You could argue this about O'Connor but on fans and players Widnes have always been a bigger club since the early seventies.

 

If as you say they are between St.Helens and Wire then I take the point entirely but where else would we find a strong enough RL club to make the tenth and become self sufficient?

 

Widnes are 2,000 fans off self sufficiency and have managed 6,800 in Superleague in 2005 so arguably they are the best of the rest??

Hull KR.

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Well I'm working on the best business plan for SL IM  own VHO.

 

I do invite you good sir to make your own selections of the ten clubs likely to serve as much of the RL audience as possible, without taking the same fans off each other. The other factor is those clubs must be sizable clubs who have proved themselves. Don't pick Keighley instead of Bradford!!

 

I'd find your picks fascinating......

IF SL want to break away with your picks and ring fence themselves, then so be it. If the game is to remain as one entity then SL is part of a whole and the SL needs to be available to all the members of the league.

The makeup needs not to be determined on what's best for SL but on what teams have won the right to be a SL member. IF money talks, then eventually the SL will be the league you want with the teams you want and no one will be able to argue against it but the failing team in any given season needs to be replaced by the best of the rest. Again, if money talks, this situation will eventually result in the best bet resurfacing in SL. Unfortunately for the ring fencers this might not always be one of their chosen. Some other upstart might make a better job of it.

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If the new structure starts in 2015 -the top 10 would be as per league placings this year.The next 10 would be the bottom 4 of SL this year Toulouse,and the top 5 of the Championship which on recent years performance is likely to be Sheffield,Featherstone,Leigh,halifax and Batley.

Promotion to be 1 up 1 down.

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The makeup needs not to be determined on what's best for SL but on what teams have won the right to be a SL member.

 

The thing is - what are criteria for "winning the right" ?

 

The teams currently in $uperleague have "won the right" by winning in the franchise process.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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It appears Parky's new statistical fairytale is Widnes. He's decided he wants them in "his" SL and will find stats to back it up and ignore others.

To argue that Widnes are the best of the rest based on a figure of 6,900 in 2005 is laughable! Hull KR averaged 8,500 (more than Widnes) in 2009 (more recent). But we should merge them because there's already one other club in the area (compared to two others near Widnes).

Therefore Widnes are arguably the best of the rest.

Really?!

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