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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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What, pray tell, is a heavily rationalized sport ?[/quote

It's what predictive text deemed that regionalised was supposed to be

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Because Bradford are a major club

They can be, have been, and more than likely will be a long term force in the competition. Even in a bad season they can attract attendances and perform on the pitch to a level that your club could only dream of

As well as this they have massive potential for growth

Bradford 2013 season horribilis would have been a major if not unattainable achievement for your club

When Bradford were slipping headlong to extinction in 1962/3, Featherstone were regularly appearing before 20,000 in consecutive RL CUP semi finals at Odsal. Big club is a relative term that is only true in certain decades when discussing Bradford. They have proven that they have considerable potential for disaster as well as success. Right now they are precariously balanced and could tip either way.

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Soccer is what people turn to when P&R is championed sky do a good job of papering over the cracks of that creaking behemoth!

The clubs struggling to survive below the PL is forgotten about. .....how much press has bolton got? Made 50mill loss last year now around 136mill in debt,

that is ONE club, they lost in one year as much as 13SL clubs (minus london) combined cumulative total debt! But hey lets follw that model into oblivion!

Do you remember Manchester City and Aston Villa in Division three and Manchester United and Liverpool in Division two. I do. Somebody helped them out.

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When Bradford were slipping headlong to extinction in 1962/3, Featherstone were regularly appearing before 20,000 in consecutive RL CUP semi finals at Odsal. Big club is a relative term that is only true in certain decades when discussing Bradford. They have proven that they have considerable potential for disaster as well as success. Right now they are precariously balanced and could tip either way.

 

Featherstone appeared in consecutive semi-finals in 59 and 60, they then appeared in another in 62 and their next was 67, I suggest you check the word consecutive. 

 

One of the lowest, by a long way during that era (60s), semi attendances was for Wakefield which I could therefor say proves they have always had rubbish crowds.

 

Also by your Leigh logic this doesn't show that Featherstone have 10s of thousands of potential supporters but Bradford do.

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so catalan can get 8500 x 20 a head 170000...

Or Leigh can hope 2000 away fans can add to their 1500

So 3500x20 a head 70000.....

Eeerrrmmm no degree needed sod the away fans catalan model all the way! !!

And the cost of a coach for most teams for a visit to Leigh compared to air fare to Perpignan and a hotel for 30 people for at a day or two is much different. Which do you think is he cheaper for those paying the bills.?

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My money would be on at Bristol and Cumbria the majority were local, i.e within 30 miles, same at Leigh, unfortunately at Leigh that thirty mile includes the afore mentioned clubs.

 

You cannot extrapolte in any way shape or form the attendance in Leigh to a full house every week at Leogh, no more than the GB v France game at Wigan means Wigan can get 25k into the DW for every game. You live in a fanciful world.

I never suggested a full house at Leigh every week. I suggested a possible filip to Leigh's attendances, certainly not a full house.

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There was a time when keighley weren't and featherstone weren't

But they were admitted

If your principles are to be followed them thatto Heath should have been promoted and the bottom club of championship one relegated

Also for all you know thatto Heath might pay their players

If Thatto Heath apply and are admitted into the RFL's pro levels, then, should they win promotion, they should be promoted. Keighley applied as did Featherstone and both joined the pro leagues.

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I never suggested a full house at Leigh every week. I suggested a possible filip to Leigh's attendances, certainly not a full house.

 

How do you work that out when you don't know the make up of the attendees.

 

I was sat with Wigan fans to my left, Widnes fans to my right, Warrington supporters behind me and in front more Wigan supporters, I can't recall a Leyther anywhere near where i was sat, my conclusion could be that Leythers aren't interested.

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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If Thatto Heath apply and are admitted into the RFL's pro levels, then, should they win promotion, they should be promoted. Keighley applied as did Featherstone and both joined the pro leagues.

Do you mean they weren't promoted? 

Surely that to heath should have been promoted as of right in the name of fairness and justice

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso

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Featherstone appeared in consecutive semi-finals in 59 and 60, they then appeared in another in 62 and their next was 67, I suggest you check the word consecutive. 

 

One of the lowest, by a long way during that era (60s), semi attendances was for Wakefield which I could therefor say proves they have always had rubbish crowds.

 

Also by your Leigh logic this doesn't show that Featherstone have 10s of thousands of potential supporters but Bradford do.

1959 and 1960 looks like consecutive to me. 1960 is two years out from Bradford's ceasing to exist. The rot was already in place and Bradford were very poor when Fev were a decent club.

Potential is one thing. Reality is another. At that time period, one team going to 3 cup semi finals in 4 years and the other dropping out of the league and being wound up would suggest that Fev were the bigger club in that epoch.

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Do you mean they weren't promoted? 

Surely that to heath should have been promoted as of right in the name of fairness and justice

They weren't a member of the league structure and, in any event, the merger crowd would have had a fit with two teams in St Helens even though it had happened before.

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When Bradford were slipping headlong to extinction in 1962/3, Featherstone were regularly appearing before 20,000 in consecutive RL CUP semi finals at Odsal. Big club is a relative term that is only true in certain decades when discussing Bradford. They have proven that they have considerable potential for disaster as well as success. Right now they are precariously balanced and could tip either way.

No they weren't

Also you are talking about the challenge cup not the league

They did play in front of big crowds in semi finals. I went to all of them. The competition had a different status then, sport was at the tail end of the post war boom and they played against teams with large numbers of supporters

By 1967 they played I fromt of a semi final crowd against leeds of 18'000

And by the time they played leigh at headingley in 73 it had fallen to 7000 the lowest ever into Sheffield v London in 98

 

They played leeds in front of 22,000 in their last semi. This was played at elland road, a virtual home game for leeds

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1959 and 1960 looks like consecutive to me. 1960 is two years out from Bradford's ceasing to exist. The rot was already in place and Bradford were very poor when Fev were a decent club.

Potential is one thing. Reality is another. At that time period, one team going to 3 cup semi finals in 4 years and the other dropping out of the league and being wound up would suggest that Fev were the bigger club in that epoch.

 

The bit in bold is interesting considering your statements about world cup attendances.

 

Semi final attendances have to have two things taken into account though, the standing of the opposition in the game at the time and the general average attendances at the time. Also, especially at a time when travel wasn't as easy as today where the two teams were from in comparison to the venue.

 

Once again you are trying to pluck a single figure out without comparison to the realities of the time to try and prove a point that isn't actually backed up by your flimsy evidence.

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They weren't a member of the league structure and, in any event, the merger crowd would have had a fit with two teams in St Helens even though it had happened before.

What's a merger crowd?

What difference would this act of mass hysteria have had on their promotion? This crowd...are you sure it wasn't a mob or a brigade? Didn't get what they(whoever they are) believed to be right before

Featherstone weren't a member of the league structure either.

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How do you work that out when you don't know the make up of the attendees.

 

I was sat with Wigan fans to my left, Widnes fans to my right, Warrington supporters behind me and in front more Wigan supporters, I can't recall a Leyther anywhere near where i was sat, my conclusion could be that Leythers aren't interested.

I said these things were anecdotal. I was at Headingley for the PNG game an the Scotland game. There was a true blue Scotsman behind me and a Keighley fan and his son in front of me as well as myself. My conclusion was that Leeds are in decline and Keighley should be in SL.

The RLWC people would know the addresses of all ticket buyers but I would bet that there were a very decent number of Leythers in attendance. Going by the amount of Fijian flags at Rochdale and knowing the diaspora of Fijians in the town, I would guess that there were more than he usual numbers of Rochdale residents at Spotland that night. In the absence of information from the ticket data base, I will just wait and see if the crowds at either of these two clubs, and, indeed, Workington and Halifax show any significant increase in he upcoming season.

I think you would be happier if only 2,000 had shown up at all the venues and then it would have been probable proof that no locals attended.

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I think you would be happier if only 2,000 had shown up at all the venues and then it would have been probable proof that no locals attended.

 

Utterly and completely wrong, and I find that insulting.

 

I wish I hadn't been able to get a ticket because the Leythers had bought them all on day one.

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Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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The bit in bold is interesting considering your statements about world cup attendances.

 

Semi final attendances have to have two things taken into account though, the standing of the opposition in the game at the time and the general average attendances at the time. Also, especially at a time when travel wasn't as easy as today where the two teams were from in comparison to the venue.

 

Once again you are trying to pluck a single figure out without comparison to the realities of the time to try and prove a point that isn't actually backed up by your flimsy evidence.

I never referenced attendances although I am sure Fev's were bigger than Bradford's. I was referencing the relative success of the one and complete and utter failure of the other as to which was the big team.

The realities of the time were that Featherstone were the bigger club. If you want to a longer time frame for Bradford being a big club, then I would say that from their admission to the league as Bradford Northern until almost the outbreak of WW11 they were small fry. Post war they were massive until their nadir of 1962/63. Following their resurrection they were middling right up until SL when they were huge again and right now they are once again average to below average.

This fixation with them being a big club depends very much on which single period is focussed upon. Overall I wouldn't give them an A+ as a big club in the same way that you could do for Leeds, Wigan and a couple of others.

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What's a merger crowd?

What difference would this act of mass hysteria have had on their promotion? This crowd...are you sure it wasn't a mob or a brigade? Didn't get what they(whoever they are) believed to be right before

Featherstone weren't a member of the league structure either.

1. St Helens Recreation were full league members and were located in ST Helens as the Pilkington glass works team.

2. Featherstone Rovers were admitted to the league in the 1920's. I am sure you will leap to correct me if I am wrong. Therefore, at the time of any promotions from CC1 for example to the Championship they were members of the league structure.

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Utterly and completely wrong, and I find that insulting.

 

I wish I hadn't been able to get a ticket because the Leythers had bought them all on day one.

Oh, alright, I withdraw that allegation then. I got my tickets on day one and I,m glad I did. It was a great evening, a great venue and a great crowd and a great game. I was impressed. I hope I'm right and you are wrong because an increase in attendnaces at any club wojld be a good thing.

I also made my first visit to the DW and that's very nice also but the steps to the top row of the stand are some kind of steep.

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Don't know why people just can't be honest, This is all really just about money, We have people telling us how great their club is, and how fantastic they have done and how ready they are , I don't dispute it, but what do you want with super league then,

 

SL is the most disliked club ,that everyone want to get into, That's because it's where the money is, without it the game will just wither away.

 

That's so true, but the CC clubs don't get SKY money (yet) and outside Superleague the game already withers, although die is a bad word. Bramley, Rochdale, York, Hunslet and Swinton have enough "diehards" to keep their flags flying as supporters run clubs.

 

The decline of the Championship clubs continues......

 

CC attendances     1996-2495  2013-1020

 

CC1 attendances   1996-857   2013-435

 

What is a great thing however is that as the lower levels decline IMVHO due to people being less parochial, able to travel more, and being more into top level sport in the TV sport age, Superleague has as you say saved the day for the game by not only attracting more fans to "The grounds of Rugby League" but by also creating paying spectators in their armchairs under their SKY dishes.

 

There are in any such upheavals winners and losers and that's the fans of championship clubs (still at those clubs) whose hopes to be at the party continue to fade as their clubs turn to dual registration to cut their costs and hope they can get some fans back from their big partners. Neither of these "advantages" of giving up their independence have seemingly worked.

 

We have only a few clubs (four) still waiting at the station "ready" to catch the Superleague train, or so they say (three of them fell off it last time) and they will not countenance anyone suggesting it's not coming, because that also means the end for them. P & R Is illogical and damaging to the game, but hey sport is about dreams and at least a dream is enough to hang on to, but come the day SL shuts up shop and becomes more the NRL model, the dream will be gone. The SL trains wnt be coming any more Dr. Wood-Beeching will have shut the station. So the argument continues as to why:-

 

1. World cup attendances show everyone wants to watch the Championship next year,

2. Why getting rid of big clubs for small clubs is a fab idea.

3. Why having two clubs in the same city is really good for both clubs.

4. Why a return to P & R will have rich investors flooding the game

5. Why 1990 was what Rugby League really was all about, not this modern rubbish.

 

The forthcoming decisions and those further down the line will split the decision makers between putting all eggs into the SL basket, or trying to spread the SKY money into the Championship which 2x12-3x8 does. For me investing in the half that is withering may be the dodgiest investment yet.

Edited by The Parksider
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I never suggested a full house at Leigh every week. I suggested a possible filip to Leigh's attendances, certainly not a full house.

 

Bit of a climb down here.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I was at Rochdale for the Fiji-Ireland game.  It doesn't mean I'll be supporting any future Rochdale $uperleague team.

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There seems to be a lot of talk about mergers all the time, I have mentioned Mergers from time to time, But i have never suggested they could be forced on clubs, I think they would be desirable and could promote a truly Elite SL, That said the overwhelming majority of posters have made it clear that it is never going to happen.

 

 So the alternative for me ,Or at least what i would like to see happen is that SL takes control of it's own game, All the fans  ( or most of them ) on here talking about upping the Sky money ( as thought it were a mere formality ) are clubs Fans who don't get much of it now and would like a lot more.

 

I have read all the arguments on here about how this could happen and that could happen, I haven't read one single argument that has convinced me that 1 single club from the Championship can make the grade in SL, Unless they get a huge amount of money from somewhere they will almost certainly fail. That's not doom mongering, It's saying what will most likely happen.

 

I have read how they may be able to grow their Fan base , If this or that is given a chance,  Not one thing written has has said they will enhance the Elite comp, they have said they could in years to come, and they could make the middle 8 ( which pertains to them) very competitive  with teams at their level.  How having very competitive local derbies does anything at all to make the Elite comp and better i fail to see.

 

I can see how it would be very good for some clubs, But how does it do anything at all for the top comp

 

The time when sport could run on a shoestring is gone. Just to survive  £3.5 million, What CC has got that kind of money, because any one promoted without it will be Cannon fodder.

 

If we want to go back to the days of all clubs being equal, and being satisfied with it being a game just for Y/L where you could get to most games without much trouble, and your best games were always against your Neighbours, A real community game so to speak.   Well i say let the Championship get on with it, nothing standing in the way of them getting it back to where it once was,  Get a TV contract BT sport whoever , why do they even need  SL .

 

I hope the SL chairmen take a very strong stance, somone needs to push the game forward.

 

At long last someone is actually wearing his heart on his sleeve and venting his feelings, not may I add feelings for the game as a whole, but by trying to protect what they consider is best for their own club, i.e. if they are in SL and receiving the benefits that go along with it, or they are a club on the fringes and would like to be part of SL.

 

Mr. Strides expresses that he wants the SL Chairmen to close ranks, and yes ring fence SL in as much as break away from the RL, because that will be the only scenario open to them if they do not agree with any proposed restructuring.

 

What would that do for the game globally, Imagine the England/GB International Team being made up of players from other than SL clubs, this is what would happen as the SL players would not be part of  the GBRL or RLIF, Infact this may suit Sky as they proved this year they have no interest in International RL.

 

Mr. Strides, in other posts I have seen you reference your longevity of being a Fartown/Giants supporter through very thin times, when I presume you longed for a return to former glories. Please read through your post again and rewind back 10 years ago, it does not take much imagination to put Huddersfield in place as your example as one of those clubs with ambition and hope.

 

In fact I don’t ever think I have come across a more NIMBY statement of self protection/gratification.

 

We are what we are being RL fans, we all care for the game but parochialism is our main criteria, which (quite rightly) comes across loud and clear with Messer’s Yipyee and Mysterioso’s backs to the wall defence of Bradford, and Mr Keighley’s desire to have the opportunity to see the best players at a revamped Cougar Park.

 

Being parochial is for me the main reason that Mr Parksider’s campaign for merger’s would not work, not in the short term at least, I would consider that the fans of the club that is being asked to relocate to what is historically the “best of enemies” would stay away in their droves, does any one imagine that if say Bradford were asked to go to Headingley there would be attendances in the region of 21K from the home support only, I doubt it, and even then that would represent a loss of paying public from the average attendances of each club, and for what it's worth I feel this would be the same whether in Cheshire or Calder or Hull or wherever.

 

The decision being made this month is massive in terms of how will the SL Chairman take it, if they go along with Mr. Strides suggestion and believe themselves to be bigger than the game itself, then we will have some very interesting times ahead.    

"If Rugby League had never been Invented, today we would only have Rugby League"

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How many multi million pound clubs does RL have. certainly not Bradford, Wakefield, Castleford or London.

Thatto Heath ? I have no idea what you are talking about. have they ever been a member of the professional rankjs of the RFL ?

the four clubs you name are all muli million pound clubs stop playing dumb!!! Sky money alone is over 1 mill.......

Most SL clubs operate at a minimum of 4 mill

Thatto heath won the league but wasnt promoted! Same as Sheffield! You bang on about the top end but you don't seem to care that your principles should be extrapolated downwards???

Edited by yipyee
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so catalan can get 8500 x 20 a head 170000...

Or Leigh can hope 2000 away fans can add to their 1500

So 3500x20 a head 70000.....

Eeerrrmmm no degree needed sod the away fans catalan model all the way! !!

What Catalan attract at home is of no financial benefit to the 'heartland' SL clubs is it? Ask the Cas or Wakey CEO which home fixture they'd prefer...Catalan or Fev? It's a no brainer

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