The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[keighley]

Bit of a climb down here.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, I was at Rochdale for the Fiji-Ireland game.  It doesn't mean I'll be supporting any future Rochdale $uperleague team.

Do you live in Rochdale ? If not, you are not the demographic of potential new support for the Hornets which I would hope might be a result of the WC game at Spotland.

[Griff]

Do you live in Rochdale ? If not, you are not the demographic of potential new support for the Hornets which I would hope might be a result of the WC game at Spotland.

 

No.  And is that not the point ?  A lot of people were there who didn't come from Rochdale.

[keighley]

Admitted? Surely they should have been promoted and another club relegated: it's only fair and just. How was the decision taken? In a smoke filled room?

 

Your mention of Pilkington recs doesn't seem to answer my question.

On their admittance to membership of the league, Featherstone were not playing in a competition that had a pathway to the semi pro RFL competition. In fact there was no p and r. There was just one big league and anybody who wanted to join it was usually admitted but they had to apply. Castleford were admitted round about the same time as Fev. Wigan Highfield, the two London clubs, Carlisle all joined the RFL semi pro leagues in the inter war period. And, yes, at that time the decisions were almost certainly made in a smoke filled room.

St Helens rec are the team I was referencing. They were from St.Helens. They were a works team of Pilkington Glass but they were full members of the pro leagues and were a top team for a while. I think they made the Challenge Cup semi at least once.

I only referenced them as you were suggesting Thatto Heath, also from St Helens should be promoted to the league structure and I suggested that the people who want mergers wouldn't be happy with two teams in St Helens even though it had happened before,, i.e.St.Helens Recs. I hope that clears up all your questions.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I didn't say thatto Heath should at all

My point was that using your 'principles' then it ought to be the case

Super league is one big league to which people have to apply

Why is one ok and not the other

[keighley]

No.  And is that not the point ?  A lot of people were there who didn't come from Rochdale.

Indeed and I was also one of them. However I am sure there were a substantial number of Rochdale residents there who were not regular followers of the Hornets and it is that group that I would hope might be persuaded to return to watch the club as a result of a positive experience at the WC game.

If that is not the case, so be it. Next season will give us a hint one way or the other.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Do you live in Rochdale ? If not, you are not the demographic of potential new support for the Hornets which I would hope might be a result of the WC game at Spotland.

One would have thought that the demographic of support would be anyone who is interested and inspired

People in the real world don't live in pigeon holes

[l'angelo mysterioso]

At long last someone is actually wearing his heart on his sleeve and venting his feelings, not may I add feelings for the game as a whole, but by trying to protect what they consider is best for their own club, i.e. if they are in SL and receiving the benefits that go along with it, or they are a club on the fringes and would like to be part of SL.

Mr. Strides expresses that he wants the SL Chairmen to close ranks, and yes ring fence SL in as much as break away from the RL, because that will be the only scenario open to them if they do not agree with any proposed restructuring.

What would that do for the game globally, Imagine the England/GB International Team being made up of players from other than SL clubs, this is what would happen as the SL players would not be part of the GBRL or RLIF, Infact this may suit Sky as they proved this year they have no interest in International RL.

Mr. Strides, in other posts I have seen you reference your longevity of being a Fartown/Giants supporter through very thin times, when I presume you longed for a return to former glories. Please read through your post again and rewind back 10 years ago, it does not take much imagination to put Huddersfield in place as your example as one of those clubs with ambition and hope.

In fact I don’t ever think I have come across a more NIMBY statement of self protection/gratification.

We are what we are being RL fans, we all care for the game but parochialism is our main criteria, which (quite rightly) comes across loud and clear with Messer’s Yipyee and Mysterioso’s backs to the wall defence of Bradford, and Mr Keighley’s desire to have the opportunity to see the best players at a revamped Cougar Park.

Being parochial is for me the main reason that Mr Parksider’s campaign for merger’s would not work, not in the short term at least, I would consider that the fans of the club that is being asked to relocate to what is historically the “best of enemies” would stay away in their droves, does any one imagine that if say Bradford were asked to go to Headingley there would be attendances in the region of 21K from the home support only, I doubt it, and even then that would represent a loss of paying public from the average attendances of each club, and for what it's worth I feel this would be the same whether in Cheshire or Calder or Hull or wherever.

The decision being made this month is massive in terms of how will the SL Chairman take it, if they go along with Mr. Strides suggestion and believe themselves to be bigger than the game itself, then we will have some very interesting times ahead.

My back isn't to the wall

And in defending nobody

[Griff]

Indeed and I was also one of them. However I am sure there were a substantial number of Rochdale residents there who were not regular followers of the Hornets and it is that group that I would hope might be persuaded to return to watch the club as a result of a positive experience at the WC game.

If that is not the case, so be it. Next season will give us a hint one way or the other.

 

Indeed it will.

 

Though I suspect Hornets' promotion will be more significant.

[Keith T]

On the other hand lets keep it nice and parochial and narrow minded and self interested. That should take the game forward.

 

The bigger picture in the game to my mind is international rugby league but is it not the narrow minded, parochial, self preserving Chairmen of SL clubs that works against that bigger picture?     It certainly isn't Chairmen of lower league clubs.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

The bigger picture in the game to my mind is international rugby league but is it not the narrow minded, parochial, self preserving Chairmen of SL clubs that works against that bigger picture? It certainly isn't Chairmen of lower league clubs.

I didn't know the chairs of lower league clubs were involved in international development

But you are right the efforts of the sl chairs to subvert last years World Cup were despicable

On the other hand what you are saying has nothing to do with the subject at hand

Edited January 7, 2014 by l'angelo mysterioso

[sweaty craiq]

Sadly there are those who don't want there to be a bigger picture

 

that include your good self

[Ackroman]

Well thanks for the responce mate, You have got it a bit wrong here and there, If you had read any more of my posts you would have seen , I have never championed my own club over another , I have repeatedly said i know exactly where we would be without KD. 

 

I have also always stressed It makes no difference whatever to me who the clubs are in Super league, and it doesn't. If the Giants benefacter wanked away tommorrow and we tumbled down the League to finish in the lowest  league , I would still watch Fartown  ( as i always have ) but i can tell you straight out it would not stop me wanting to watch SL on TV played to the highest standards it can be.  I don't want to switch on and watch Leeds or Saints  stick 60 points on Leigh or whoever every week, And don't tell me that it wont happen cause it happened to my team for 4 years, And that was a team with serious money behind them.

 

The reason i want the SL  chairmen to make a strong stand, Is becuse i have a lot more faith in them than i do in the RFL, as far as i can see The RFL has been sat on it's thumbs long enough, Dreaming up fancyful systems ,that replace other half tried systems, each one  claimed to be what is going to change the game to what it used to be, and bring back Fans in Thousands.

 

It's all a Dream, They may bring it in , But if they have any thoughts about it Revitalising the game , at all the clubs who are barely existing, and somehow take us back to the 50s while still being Magically in 2014, then it is a masive dream, There is not one thing other than an idea, That says one extra penny will be generated  in the game as a whole. There may well be a few quid in it for a few certain clubs , but it will inevitably come from other clubs.

 

Why do people not grasp the facts, Super league crowds have increased , CC are going backwards ,Sky don't want to know them, There own fans dont want to know them ( again i know the feeling ) Thats been happening for a long time now. A new format is going to put all this right in no time at all, 

 

Suddenly Sheffield are going to become a big club because they are going to be playing the likes of Wigan a few times, They beat Wigan at wembley years ago ,and pushed on to where exactly.

 

Gary , Yes i have supported Fartown for 60 years, some of those years worse that you want to know,  Before KD came along Huddersfield would never  ever have got to the top clubs in the game again, I believe that to be a fact, but i still watched them and would have done till they disapeared , But  i would still have " and did" watch all the top clubs on TV, Just because the Giants were not there didn't make the Leeds ,Bulls games any less enjoyable on TV.

 

You can believe me or otherwise as you see fit, but i feel the same now, I don't want anything to dillute the Elite game in any way, It's the flagship comp and It's what will keep the game alive at worst, and take it forward at best

 

I don't want to hold back any club Fev Fax , Leigh, Sheffield (I don't care who the Super league clubs are) But i want them to get to the same level before they go in, Rather than reduce the Elite level to accomodate them, ( which i think is a danger ) becuse anyone who thinks that a CC without either a huge amount of money ( could happen ) Or a huge crowd every week ( won't happen ) will be able to compete with  multy million clubs ,i would say are Dreamers.

 

I don't know what the decision will be any more than anyone else, I just hope that the SL chairmen make a strong case for keeping SL " Super", As far as i can see  ( world Cups apart ) it is the only bit of Rugby League anyone is interested in commecially, the main money generator, The providor of by far the majority of junior players, What people buy Dishes to watch.

 

What is to be gained by reducing the quality , or even risking it , Just to show a world ( who by and large don't give diddly  about League ) how fair we are , to all the smaller clubs whose fans are deserting them, because they dont get to play clubs who will just thrash them.

 

Perhaps my way may be best. I go to watch my club at whatever level it's playing (Years of at Bottom ) and i get to watch the elite teams on TV.

 

I never got passed the first line in the second paragraph. If that was the method I'd be a milionaire.

[Marty Funkhouser]

Catalan dont need away fans, neither do Leeds, Saints, Warrington, Hull, Wigan...

 

If clubs need away fans to operate then they are in a league higher than they should be!

 

Dont get me wrong away fans cash will add nicely to the coffers.....but the clubs i mentioned would still break even paying full cap if away fans boycotted their grounds!

 

Also the travelling team will get a cut of the fans they take!

 

Their are a second list with rich chairmen who are happy to make up the short comings.....

 

If Cas need away fans just to pay the bills this adds strength to the argument for a ten team top division!?!

 

How do hull know how many fans HKR will bring?

 

I bet saints thought they would get a full house vs Wigan and it was only around 14K (their average)......

 

Catalan can survive without being 'propped up' by away support....they are therefore worth their weight in gold!

 

13 clubs who can average the same or more than catalan (remember with v. little away support) and the SL would be a healthy place indeed!

 

You do realise Hull FC made a loss of £500,000 in their last accounts ???

 

This included away fans...

 

How Mr Pearson must wish they could break even...

[sweaty craiq]

I didn't know the chairs of lower league clubs were involved in international development.

 

and neither are those of SL

[sweaty craiq]

My back isn't to the wall

And in defending nobody

 

the perception is different

[keighley]

Firstly how long do they stay in a hotel? If traveling on ryanair and staying in a travelodge bunking up 15 rooms at 20 a room is 300 quid flights 60 quid return x 30 1800 quid? plus a 500 quid coach?

Therefore 2 nights 600 plus 1800 plus 500 is 2900.....take that off the extra 100000 made from the return homeleg and a nice profit of 97100 per game! 

 

oh looking at that they may be able to afford to pre-pick their seats and extra leg room?

 

So you are therefore stating that you are a fan of licensing and a club should 'apply' to be promoted?

 

do you not find it a travesty that some smoking fellas in a backroom will decide Thatto heaths fate? 

 

As you say they won promotion fair and square?!?!?!!?

 

I think you are a closet fan of licensing and if Keighley were in the SL you would be shouting from the roof tops to pull up the drawbridge!

 

Your latest comments on Heath proves this!

Thatto Heath were not a member of the RFL semi pro/pro league. They are a member of an amateur league. There is no p nd r between the two. They are independent entities. IF, I repeat IF, Thatto Heath applied for and were granted membership of the semipro/pro Rugby league competition then they should be able to be promoted and relegated up and down that structure asyou say, fair and square.

The point you appear to be making is that amateur teams should be included in a tiered hierarchy which would allow p and r from pub team level all the way up to SL.

I am not fundamentally opposed to this but,at present, it's proving a mammoth task to even get p and r amongst the pro ranks from top to bottom established as a principle. Lets not run before we can walk.

The new teams in CC1, Hemel, Old Golds, Oxford, South Wales, North Wales were all admitted to the semi pro ranks by becoming members on application first. It is an established route to league membership but your hierarchal pathway from the bottom is not an anathema to me, far from it.

[Keith T]

I didn't know the chairs of lower league clubs were involved in international development

But you are right the efforts of the sl chairs to subvert last years World Cup were despicable

On the other hand what you are saying has nothing to do with the subject at hand

The reason why we haven't done as well as we should have with all the Sky money is because those same Chairmen have wasted most of it on foreign imports instead of developing more of our own.

It may have nothing to do with the subject at hand but neither did your comment about being parochial or self interested which I replied to.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

that include your good self

But of course lets go back to the great days of yester year

And sod the outside world

Now that was a big picture

[Dave T]

I didn't know the chairs of lower league clubs were involved in international development

But you are right the efforts of the sl chairs to subvert last years World Cup were despicable

On the other hand what you are saying has nothing to do with the subject at hand

I think that is harsh.

 

I know my club Warrington were very supportive of the World Cup and that must come from the top. I suspect that based on the success of the tournament there were plenty other supportive SL Chairmen.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

The reason why we haven't done as well as we should have with all the Sky money is because those same Chairmen have wasted most of it on foreign imports instead of developing more of our own.

It may have nothing to do with the subject at hand but neither did your comment about being parochial or self interested which I replied to.

I think you'll find it had everything to do with it

Since the conflict at the heart of the topic is between small minded narrow self interest and the stature and growth of the sport

Clubs throughout the game have wasted money in the way you suggest

What did your club spend its sky money on?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I think that is harsh.

I know my club Warrington were very supportive of the World Cup and that must come from the top. I suspect that based on the success of the tournament there were plenty other supportive SL Chairmen.

I know mate I was being sardonic

I agree with what you say

[yipyee]

I agree thats the safest way of going about it but FEVs average was 2400 this season,if they had been promoted do you think they would have worked off that average for the coming season?

no, you would see how many ST you could sell, then add a reasonable number.....

personally I would budget for ST sales and bank the extra cash.....use this the following season to market the games and try to grow the ST holder's. ......

[Keith T]

I don't want to hold back any club Fev Fax , Leigh, Sheffield (I don't care who the Super league clubs are) But i want them to get to the same level before they go in, Rather than reduce the Elite level to accomodate them, ( which i think is a danger ) becuse anyone who thinks that a CC without either a huge amount of money ( could happen ) Or a huge crowd every week ( won't happen ) will be able to compete with  multy million clubs ,i would say are Dreamers.

 

I don't know what the decision will be any more than anyone else, I just hope that the SL chairmen make a strong case for keeping SL " Super", As far as i can see  ( world Cups apart ) it is the only bit of Rugby League anyone is interested in commecially, the main money generator, The providor of by far the majority of junior players, What people buy Dishes to watch.

 

What is to be gained by reducing the quality , or even risking it , Just to show a world ( who by and large don't give diddly  about League ) how fair we are , to all the smaller clubs whose fans are deserting them, because they dont get to play clubs who will just thrash them.

 

Perhaps my way may be best. I go to watch my club at whatever level it's playing (Years of at Bottom ) and i get to watch the elite teams on TV.

 

You could have fooled me saying you don't want to hold anyone back and you not caring which teams are in SL.  Of course you are and do.   You are speaking from the position of being one of the top clubs and despite what you have witnessed with your own club in the past you wisj and hope for them to remain there forever more.  

 

All the clubs in SL need a large amount of money and I don't see that it makes much difference giving that money to a viable Championship club or a struggling financially unsound current SL club.    How much money has London had over the years to keep them afloat and in SL?    I'm sure Fev or Fax or Leigh with the same amount of financial support could have been pretty safe in SL by now.

 

How is the quality of SL being diminished by allowing one new club in per season?    I'm sure that replacing London with Fev would not diminish the quality of SL one iota and what you are saying is again mere attempted justification for keeping the status quo or closed shop attitude.

[Dave T]

no, you would see how many ST you could sell, then add a reasonable number.....

personally I would budget for ST sales and bank the extra cash.....use this the following season to market the games and try to grow the ST holder's. ......

But banking only on Season Ticket sales will give you a rather low budget.

 

Warrington's Season Ticket sales are probably around 3k lower than their average. Based on an average of £20 per customer this is almost £800k that you are not factoring in. Away support is probably worth around £250k of this.

[yipyee]

Thatto Heath were not a member of the RFL semi pro/pro league. They are a member of an amateur league. There is no p nd r between the two. They are independent entities. IF, I repeat IF, Thatto Heath applied for and were granted membership of the semipro/pro Rugby league competition then they should be able to be promoted and relegated up and down that structure asyou say, fair and square.

The point you appear to be making is that amateur teams should be included in a tiered hierarchy which would allow p and r from pub team level all the way up to SL.

I am not fundamentally opposed to this but,at present, it's proving a mammoth task to even get p and r amongst the pro ranks from top to bottom established as a principle. Lets not run before we can walk.

The new teams in CC1, Hemel, Old Golds, Oxford, South Wales, North Wales were all admitted to the semi pro ranks by becoming members on application first. It is an established route to league membership but your hierarchal pathway from the bottom is not an anathema to me, far from it.

so to put that in context you are happy then that there isnt P&R between tier 3 and 2.....

By that logic you should be happy that the same is the case between 2 to 1......

As stated SL is separate to the RFL and therefore teams should apply to join!

As I said you seem a big fan of licensing. .....