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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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I didn't say thatto Heath should at all

My point was that using your 'principles' then it ought to be the case

Super league is one big league to which people have to apply

Why is one ok and not the other

No SL is an part of a three tier structure of the pro game. Therefore there should be p and r between those constituent parts. Thatto Heath is not a member of that pro game structure. If you want an avenue for p and r from all levels of the game to SL then I am not against it but, at present, the p and r system being discussed is one between the three divisions of the pro arm of the game. As things stand at present Thatto heath would have to apply to join the pro ranks to be considered for p and r as the new teams in CC1 have done.

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I think you'll find it had everything to do with it

Since the conflict at the heart of the topic is between small minded narrow self interest and the stature and growth of the sport

Clubs throughout the game have wasted money in the way you suggest

What did your club spend its sky money on?

My club only got one season in SL and after going into administration we went 2 seasons without any funding at all.    Compare that with what has happened with London and Bradford now where the RFL (SLE) do everything in their power to keep them in SL.   As my signature says we were the fall guys.    And I think by memory we had no more than 2 or 3 overseas players.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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You do realise Hull FC made a loss of £500,000 in their last accounts ???

This included away fans...

How Mr Pearson must wish they could break even...

but yet they haven't gone bust.... and they are adjusting accordingly! ! Has Mr Pearson blamed the away fans? Is he looking to add ST holders or is he sitting back hoping and praying that away fans will turn up to pull him back into profit?

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One would have thought that the demographic of support would be anyone who is interested and inspired

People in the real world don't live in pigeon holes

Well. quite so but, in this instance, the poster has already stated he is not from Rochdale and is not interested in supporting a team in Rochdale.

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But banking only on Season Ticket sales will give you a rather low budget.

 

Warrington's Season Ticket sales are probably around 3k lower than their average. Based on an average of £20 per customer this is almost £800k that you are not factoring in. Away support is probably worth around £250k of this.

 

I hear you....

 

But with respect I have no extra money to make up any shortfall and therefore deal with absolutes.....I am not saying also that away support money is scourned at!!

 

What i am saying is that if NO away fans turned up at warrington they would be ok.......

 

If Leigh got promoted and budgeted hoping away fans turned up they would be in a mess if they didnt!! wages not paid etc......(unless the chairman had deep pockets!)

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My club only got one season in SL and after going into administration we went 2 seasons without any funding at all. Compare that with what has happened with London and Bradford now where the RFL (SLE) do everything in their power to keep them in SL. As my signature says we were the fall guys. And I think by memory we had no more than 2 or 3 overseas players.

Clubs outside of super league were given sky money

If your club had one season in sl

Then it will have had money for that plus money from sky given to clubs outside sl. What did it spend the money on?

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But of course lets go back to the great days of yester year

And sod the outside world

Now that was a big picture

Yeah, sod the outside world just as we did when the game expanded to Australasia, France and made attempts several times to expand to Wales, London, Carlisle, Newcastle, Italy and recruited from South Africa. Yeah, sod the outside world.

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Clubs outside of super league were given sky money

If your club had one season in sl

Then it will have had money for that plus money from sky given to clubs outside sl. What did it spend the money on?

Players contracts many of which were for 2 years and when we were relegated we had still SL contracts to pay which sent us in to administration.  And as I have said, clubs in administration then didn't get any funding from Sky or the RFL and for us that was 2 years.    It took us 7 years to get our of administration.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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No SL is an part of a three tier structure of the pro game. Therefore there should be p and r between those constituent parts. Thatto Heath is not a member of that pro game structure. If you want an avenue for p and r from all levels of the game to SL then I am not against it but, at present, the p and r system being discussed is one between the three divisions of the pro arm of the game. As things stand at present Thatto heath would have to apply to join the pro ranks to be considered for p and r as the new teams in CC1 have done.

 

SL is a seperate entity and is fully pro....

 

Tier 2 is the next level called Championship split into 2 divisions with P&R....

 

Tier 3 again is seperate and has P &R between divisions

 

Tier 4 again is seperate and has P&R between divisions

 

currently you have to apply to jump up a Tier.....you claim this is wrong but now you are saying it is right?

 

or are you saying its right unless you are keighley?

Edited by yipyee
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no, you would see how many ST you could sell, then add a reasonable number.....

personally I would budget for ST sales and bank the extra cash.....use this the following season to market the games and try to grow the ST holder's. ......

 

How can you do that ?  You set your budgets no later than August, sign up your players in the autumn.  Long before your season ticket customers come along.

 

That's one of the problems.

Edited by Griff

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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How can you do that ?  You set your budgets no later than August, sign up your players in the autumn.  Long before your season ticket customers come along.

 

That's one of the problems.

 

 

Use historical data of ST sales, add on to your squad if you have a late surge (clubs are still signing players)....most people renew early to get the early bird deals.....theoretically you would need around 8000 ST to spend full cap....if you have had 7000 ST holders for the last 10 years its safe to say you will be there or there abouts again!

 

If you only have 5000 ST holders then budget for that and use cash reserves to try to boost that number?

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Yeah, sod the outside world just as we did when the game expanded to Australasia, France and made attempts several times to expand to Wales, London, Carlisle, Newcastle, Italy and recruited from South Africa. Yeah, sod the outside world.

Whooooooooooosh

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Players contracts many of which were for 2 years and when we were relegated we had still SL contracts to pay which sent us in to administration. And as I have said, clubs in administration then didn't get any funding from Sky or the RFL and for us that was 2 years. It took us 7 years to get our of administration.

Well that's auto prom and reg for you

My point was that it wasnt just super league clubs that wasted sky money on at best mediocre overseas players

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Well that's auto prom and reg for you

My point was that it wasnt just super league clubs that wasted sky money on at best mediocre overseas players

And my point was that Englands international players are not generally playing for Championship clubs and it is the SL clubs that bring in the antipodeans where young Brits should be playing.    That is down to SL Chairmen. 

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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The main problem in Super League has been too many weak clubs.  Cut them to ten and we will have less chaff.

 

Cats and Toulouse to spread the game to new markets.

 

Wigan, Saints and Warrington and in.

 

Leeds, Bradford and Hull FC are in.

 

That leaves two spaces for the rest.  Whoever makes the best case is in.  Then, P+R based with the lowest club not up to scratch being relegated and the best club that is up to scratch being promoted.  Of course, there may be either, but if the clubs to turn to ****, then they will be relegated.  

 

We have standards based P+R and everyone is a winner.

"You clearly have never met Bob8 then, he's like a veritable Bryan Ferry of RL." - Johnoco 19 Jul 2014

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I hear you....

 

But with respect I have no extra money to make up any shortfall and therefore deal with absolutes.....I am not saying also that away support money is scourned at!!

 

What i am saying is that if NO away fans turned up at warrington they would be ok.......

 

If Leigh got promoted and budgeted hoping away fans turned up they would be in a mess if they didnt!! wages not paid etc......(unless the chairman had deep pockets!)

Not necessarily, if no away fans turned up at Warrington, we would potentially have a £250-300k hole in our budget. We have seen clubs go extinct based on that kind of black hole.

 

All budgets are set on forecasts. How realistic they are, and how good your business is to achieve your forecasts are different things. Not factoring in income streams is not good forecasting.

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And my point was that Englands international players are not generally playing for Championship clubs and it is the SL clubs that bring in the antipodeans where young Brits should be playing. That is down to SL Chairmen.

It's down to any club that does that

Clubs inside and outside sl have been guilty of it

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so to put that in context you are happy then that there isnt P&R between tier 3 and 2.....

By that logic you should be happy that the same is the case between 2 to 1......

As stated SL is separate to the RFL and therefore teams should apply to join!

As I said you seem a big fan of licensing. .....

I'm neither happy nor sad. It just isn't in place and there is no clamour from teams outside the structure for it to be so.

So, since your purported logic that you have mistakenly attributed to me is false, point two is irrelevant.

SL self appointed itself as a breakaway league but then came back into the fold when it acquiesced in p and r between itself ad the Championship. I think you will find that all SL clubs, with the exception perhaps of Catalans are members of the RFL. The players are governed by the RFL disciplinary process, the salary cap is policed by the RFL. They all play in the Challenge Cup, a quintessential RFL competition. The RFL went to great lengths to rescue your beloved Bulls out of altruism not because they were part of the RFL system.

I am, as you say, the biggest ever fan of licencing and ring fencing. I don 't think Keighley were shafted when they wee denied promotion to SL. I think Huddersfield, Hull KR, Castleford and Wakefield should be removed immediately from SL because they were promoted to it and not given a licence. I think Bradford should be in SL forever, even if they sink to 1964 levels, because, hey, they were granted a licence. You are really lost in left field as they say in baseball with your theory that I am a closet supporter of licencing.

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SL is a seperate entity and is fully pro....

 

Tier 2 is the next level called Championship split into 2 divisions with P&R....

 

Tier 3 again is seperate and has P &R between divisions

 

Tier 4 again is seperate and has P&R between divisions

 

currently you have to apply to jump up a Tier.....you claim this is wrong but now you are saying it is right?

 

or are you saying its right unless you are keighley?

I am not saying it is right. I am saying it is what it is. I am saying that if there is a great swell of support for and demand for p and r between the amateur and semi pro leagues, then do it.

There is, however, a loud clamour and lots of support for p and r between the Championship and SL, so, just do it.

As for Keighley, I don t know if it escaped your notice but we have been promoted, demoted and promoted again. No complaints, we got what our play and admimistration deserved including a 9 points deduction for going into admin.

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Whooooooooooosh

So you are saying what with that meaningless word. Is it not true that in the past we did not say "sod it" and ignore the outside world when we expanded or tried to expand in the places I mentioned. It seems to me that that comment by you was not wholly accurate.

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It's down to any club that does that

Clubs inside and outside sl have been guilty of it

Yes of course it is but that is why I said most of the Sky money has been wasted by SL club Chairmen.   There's a big difference between £1.25 million per year and £90k.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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I hear you....

 

But with respect I have no extra money to make up any shortfall and therefore deal with absolutes.....I am not saying also that away support money is scourned at!!

 

What i am saying is that if NO away fans turned up at warrington they would be ok.......

 

If Leigh got promoted and budgeted hoping away fans turned up they would be in a mess if they didnt!! wages not paid etc......(unless the chairman had deep pockets!)

 

 

or they where able to exploit the extra and better commercial opportunities that SL offers, that is sponsors, hospitality, etc. Of course the TV monies would help putting gate money around third place in revenue income. Yep, they need to improve gates to fully compete but my point is they would have better commercial opportunities which gets over looked as most comments just focus on gate money.   Obviously depends but for the likes of Leeds commercial sponsorship & hospitality is a major factor.  Not sure if other clubs like Hull are able to maximize this major and highest revenue stream as well as the likes of Leeds are able - maybe down to better commercial focus or advantage of being in a city with many more potential sponsors than a city or region that is not as relatively economically well.   So maybe board doesn't have to dig so deep....

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So you are saying what with that meaningless word. Is it not true that in the past we did not say "sod it" and ignore the outside world when we expanded or tried to expand in the places I mentioned. It seems to me that that comment by you was not wholly accurate.

I was saying that you missed the irony

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