The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Griff]

So if the players dont want to be promoted then that would be easy to achieve would it not?

 

Stanley gene hinted at this on RL supermen did he not?

 

In general, clubs get promoted. Players don't.

 

To be fair, any player who gets the Spanish Archer because his club has got promoted won't have to look for another job in the game.  A job at some other club in the same division will come looking for him.

[Griff]

If you think the championship can get a better tv deal then you need to look into the history of it a bit more. P&R won't change a thing in that regard.

 

Why do so many people seem to think it's easy to get a tv deal ?

[gingerjon]

Why do so many people seem to think it's easy to get a tv deal ?

 

Because they look at the TV and see the dross that's on it.

[Griff]

Take it that was irony .....

Edited January 8, 2014 by Griff

[keighley]

Not sure how many away fans want to travel the very long way to Hull, but I am interested in the scale of the Hull.F.C. Loss you quote. Oddly £500,000 is exactly the same sum Hull.K.R.'s Neil Hudgell says he and Mr. Crossland has to put in annually to cover their losses.

 

So am I to conclude that in "one club" Leeds they have the correct business model, whilst in Hull to ensure the old days of FC/KR derby's it needs £1,000,000 a year from someone else's pockets to keep the past alive?

 

Again when Hull were a club who could win a challenge cup and get to a grand final (I was in the Hull end that day and what passion) they managed to up an 11,211 average crowd in 2006 by 2,000 more fans in their 2007 opening matches regardless of usurpers HKR's entry that same year.

 

The derby when it came attracted a sell out 23,002 fans. The alleged "symbiotic" relationship had started. However one year later neither club made the play offs and Hull crashed to one place off the bottom. Since then the top sides find both easy beats, and Hull's 76 point thrashing last season at Fartown was only surpassed by Hull.K.R's 84 point surrender to Wigan.

 

Last year the symbiotic beloved derby was 4,000 bored fans short. What IMVHO would be good for the game is one club in Hull giving the smug Leeds, Wires, Saints and Wigans some regular spankings. I think that would (to return to Mr. Funkmeisters original point) turn one heck of a profit and fend off the challenge of Hull City, but above all be fantastic for the game and fantastic for the TV contract.

 

All you are showing here is that success breeds success and the fans follow that. Due to the current lack f success of the Hull clubs, the crowds are decreasing. The same thing is happening at Bradford and Salford.

[The Parksider]

1. by allowing one club in at the expense of a not so virile SL club each season does not necessarily mean that you are reducing the quality.

 

2.  My club is nowhere near going back in to SL and I cannot foresee them doing it in my lifetime but that is beside the point.   You would deny others the chance who may be more ready and better suited for SL than maybe your club (Fartown) without your moneyman.   How is that taking the game forward?

 

1. Well I haven't had an answer to the Widnes/Sheffield question posed some pages back and asked a couple of times. In 2012 newly promoted Widnes came bottom of Superleague but had increased their gates to 6,000 from 3,700 and were starting to produce young professionals from their academy. Their owner was getting other businessmen on board to spread the investment, and the target was and remains 8,000 self sustaining crowds

 

During this 2012 season Sheffield were performing poorly in the academy stakes and in the attendance stakes, but they won the grand final - the qualification for promotion before it was blocked.

 

IMHO Sheffield would have floundered to find a professional side to stay up in just one year and equally all the hard work and investment Widnes were putting in would have gone down the pan.

 

Just a good example of P & R being a lose-lose situation??

 

Gary states ""Initially for promotion, there is one extremely strong candidate" – Fev" Well we are off again. Poor academy, low crowds, lower than the 3,700 Widnes had in the CC, and financially stretched to the limit. That is not extremely strong.

 

The debate constantly ignores the massive financial gap between the divisions and ignores the fact that SL failures have failed to manage their clubs in an environment that demands far far more than what is demanded of the supposedly "well managed" CC clubs. Is it really the case that the four lads who run Fax, Leigh, Fev and Sheffield are somehow proven "good managers" whilst the four lads who run London, Bradford, Wakefield and Cas are "poor managers" .

 

Should we really base P & R on such an ill judged assessment of the management qualities of individuals heading clubs???

 

2. I take your excellent point here. Is it fair to judge clubs on transient directors loans often lent against club assets. Will it strengthen Superleague If a multi millionaire owning keighley replaces Bradford???

 

Not good business and after a decade of hammering away at his club Mr. Davey has upped the crowds to over 2,000 fans less than the supposedly "badly failing" Bradford.

[The Parksider]

Due to the current lack o success of the Hull clubs, the crowds are decreasing. The same thing is happening at Bradford and Salford.

 

Then why not replace the four with Leigh, Featherstone, Sheffield and Halifax and watch the massive nett loss in paying RL fans that will produce. Administrators all round.

[The Parksider]

If the players who play in the championships want to play in SL then they can do......the reason they dont is they are not good enough.....

 

Is one point. the other point is that their own businesses or careers are often worth far more than a Superleague contract and certainly more than a one year SL contract many on here want to condemn these lads to.

 

Oh hang on - the promoted club will just buy a ready made professional team after all they are such "good managers"?

 

IIRC Castleford stayed largely professional on relegation in 2005 and part timers Whitehaven pipped them to the league title. They met in the grand final when apparently the Haven Chairman who didn't have the money to go fully professional and risk it all falling apart anyway, had plans to get the same team to go pro on the cheap and try to make some money out of the season from the SKY money.

 

So the tale goes, the lads didn't fancy going pro for a year or winning promotion just to lose their careers and businesses and hand their places over to pro players. The Final was all over in 20 minutes.

 

This debate ignores one heck of a lot of factors when it comes to P & R in all it's alleged "fairness".

Edited January 8, 2014 by The Parksider

[keighley]

Fair enough as always.

I think Leeds have sent free tickets for my lad to attend away games which I assume is to entice me to go to away matches. Not sure if there's any joint marketing venture between clubs here??

Others may know??

But in a tightly run smaller well planned Superleague I would see it as great business for both clubs to promote any game in joint marketing ventures???

 

Why can't you do the same thing in a slightly larger well planned SL ?

[The Parksider]

If fans were to vote on the future of Rugby League, in my opinion those fans that attend every game, home and away, should receive twice as many votes as those that only attend home games. There are some real stalwarts amongst the game's supporters and their wishes should not go unheeded.

 

Come on Steve, next time I want to try to revamp my business for the better am I really going do it on a vote by my customers?? If I'm interested in finding new markets and new customers, what do the old brigade have to offer?? maybe they are the problem. I want to merge but they keep sitting down in the middle of the pitch?

[The Parksider]

Why can't you do the same thing in a slightly larger well planned SL ?

 

Blimey I had all on to find 9 clubs who could be self sufficient and grow in a well planned Superleague. I sneaked Widnes in there and everyone moaned.

 

Give me your 12 then?

[keighley]

It isn't split into three divisions

At professional level it is split into two competitions one of which is split into two divisions

 

Whatever. There are three league tables in a hierachal split from SL to CC to CC1.

[Ackroman]

Not sure if this has already been stated, but this article states that ALL Championship and Championship 1 clubs are supportive of the RFL structure changes, with 8 SL clubs required to vote yes to get this in.

 

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/all-clubs/super-league-needs-resolution-fast-pearson-1-6358884

 

Interesting comments from Steve Gill from Cas, who claims he has become bored of SL, and that his club have had an attitude of 'who cares'!

 

It's articles like this that make it clear much of the arguments against PR are a waste of time. It's happening. By all means come back and say I told you so, if it's goes wrong but regarding the restructuring of the game it is definitely not on topic. The topic was and is much more about the way the game creates more fluidity between different levels of the sport.

 

I suggest, if you wish to do so, create a new thread entitled "all is doomed with P&R" and you can form the RL self flagellation society against P&R at the same time.

 

Those in favour of a closed shop SL should also move across and ask for affiliation.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Ackroman

[gingerjon]

Take it that was irony .....

 

Pretty much.

 

Do Premier pay anything to broadcast the Championship by the way?

[keighley]

Not sure if this has already been stated, but this article states that ALL Championship and Championship 1 clubs are supportive of the RFL structure changes, with 8 SL clubs required to vote yes to get this in.

 

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/all-clubs/super-league-needs-resolution-fast-pearson-1-6358884

 

Interesting comments from Steve Gill from Cas, who claims he has become bored of SL, and that his club have had an attitude of 'who cares'!

 

Interesting to me was the fact that if they can't resolve the format impasse at this meeting, the default position will be a 2 up 2 down p and r in 2015. That would suit me fine.

[gingerjon]

It's articles like this that make it clear much of the arguments against PR are a waste of time. It's happening. By all means come back and say I told you so, if it's goes wrong but regarding the restructuring of the game it is definitely not on topic. The topic was and is much more about the way the game creates more fluidity between different levels of the sport.

 

I suggest, if you wish to do so, create a new thread entitled "all is doomed with P&R" and you can form the RL self flagellation society against P&R at the same time.

 

Those in favour of a closed shop SL should also move across and ask for affiliation.

 

We're not doomed with standards-based P&R.

 

We're utterly screwed with the comedy 3x8.

[gingerjon]

Interesting to me was the fact that if they can't resolve the format impasse at this meeting, the default position will be a 2 up 2 down p and r in 2015. That would suit me fine.

 

Knowing the RFL's determination to 'make every game count' it'll have a top-ten play-off and the bottom two going down.

[keighley]

So if the players dont want to be promoted then that would be easy to achieve would it not?

 

Stanley gene hinted at this on RL supermen did he not?

 

Despite their best or would it be worst efforts, some team would win the competiton and therefore be promoted.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Fair enough Mr Strides, I applaud a guy who has convictions and sticks to them, at whatever the cost.

 

Maybe you are dead right in that your way may be the best way to go, but whichever way you dress it up it is quite apparent that you consider any team operating in the CC as of September 2013 should know their place and accept it.

 

Quote: -

 

Clubs who are barely existing, and somehow take us back to the 50s.

 

Initially for promotion, there is one extremely strong candidate – Fev, who from a group of 4  would be the most likely to, albeit to be fair to you, I think that Sheffield would be the team that would struggle to find more “home” support, than Fax or Leigh.  

 

There is not one thing other than an idea, that says one extra penny will be generated  in the game as a whole.

 

That is a very incongruous statement to make, if I am to be pedantic an increase of one on the crowd average of the promoted club would be extra income generated, Not being pedantic, I would wager that the promoted club would have more “home” support than would London, take more away support to games than would London, fans of clubs in the locality of the promoted club would probably attend that would not go to London, and finally I would not expect the RL to finance the promoted club as much(if at All) than they have London, that in itself although a saving is more money in the coffer’s.  

 

CC are going backwards  

 

Some, not all

 

 I don't want anything to dilute the Elite game in any way

 

Do you mean, financially, performance on the field, spectator numbers, or participating clubs in SL?

 

But i want them to get to the same level before they go in,

 

And how do you measure this?

 

Will be able to compete with  multy million clubs ,i would say are Dreamers.

 

So every club in SL without the Sky money falls into this bracket does it?

 

 I just hope that the SL chairmen make a strong case for keeping SL " Super",

 

Within the guidelines of the RL, if they deem to break away then there will be far more consequences than just playing in another league.  

 

What is to be gained by reducing the quality

 

Sorry to use the London state of affairs again, but just have a look at the Squads thread.

 

I also eluded to what would happen to the International team in my post, but you decided not to reply to the scenario that if SL formed their own competition against the RL’s authority the players would no longer be under the jurisdiction that would allow them selection, albeit you do state :-

 

As far as i can see  ( world Cups apart ) it is the only bit of Rugby League anyone is interested in commecially, the main money generator,

 

You omitted to mention the 3/4 nations, whether that was intentional or not, apparently this does not bother you, it is the Club v Country debate.

 

As an afterthought and I don’t know the answer to this, would the guys who are plying their trade in the antipodes still be qualified for selection? If yes, how many more would be tempted to go down under to maintain their international status if they play in a Rebel SL? Now that would Dilute SL.

 

Mr. Strides, I have no axe to grind with you, we both have our opinions, yours I understand but cannot agree with, and whatever the outcome of the RL meeting, I am sure there will be more debates to be had.

 

Finally, I do not know your background or your profession (I should imagine that you are retired, as I am) but I should imagine that you always had hopes, desires and aspirations along the life path you partook, and if anyone had tried to diminish those goals and ambitions you may have had some objections to them. I feel that by taking those qualities from some of those CC those with ambition to better themselves, we could be sucking the life blood from them.

 

 

That is a very good post, and you make some really good points, At the moment i don't have time to respond in detail,  But i will answer some of them.

 

I am not against promotion of any team, I am against promotion for the sake of being Fair, I don't see that what happened to Fax and others is helping the game in any way, It has been well discussed on here that the cost of staying alive in SL is £3.5 million, I know there are clubs in SL now that are struggling, but MO for what it's worth is they are there  because they have demonstrated that they can get crowds in, ( London is a seperate issue for me ) I fail to see how any CC can come up with that kind of money, unless they are lucky in the way my club has been ( although i may be wrong about Fev )

 

To put it at It's crudest , You may be the worlds best Poker player , But if you don't have the entry stake you wont get a game.

 

I see all your arguments and they are very laudable , They would be great in an ideal world , but we don't live in that world , Unfortuatly we live in a world that is powered by money. It is whether we like it or not, Survival of the fittest, And you are perfectly correct i am old enough to realise that.

 

Regards a breakaway, I don't think for one minute it will happen, but i do think that someone needs to shake things up at the RFL. As i remember it till SKY came along League had ground to a very low level, with one club playing at a different level to all the rest,  I don't want to get back to that state again, that's why i want to protect SL, To be honest i dont see this new format Transforming the game at all I just see it reducing SL to 8 clubs effectively,

People won't agree with me but i would save clubs like Bradford simply because they have demonstrated they can be huge, I dont think Fev for eg will ever be as big as Wakey can be, (MO only ).

 

So end of the day i think we will just have to agree to disagree,  but i do respect your point of view.

[keighley]

If you think the championship can get a better tv deal then you need to look into the history of it a bit more. P&R won't change a thing in that regard.

 

You might be right. It was Giant Strides who was "championing" that but it would certainly be an easier sell if here was he end result of a promotion to be won rather than not

[keighley]

1. Well I haven't had an answer to the Widnes/Sheffield question posed some pages back and asked a couple of times. In 2012 newly promoted Widnes came bottom of Superleague but had increased their gates to 6,000 from 3,700 and were starting to produce young professionals from their academy. Their owner was getting other businessmen on board to spread the investment, and the target was and remains 8,000 self sustaining crowds

 

During this 2012 season Sheffield were performing poorly in the academy stakes and in the attendance stakes, but they won the grand final - the qualification for promotion before it was blocked.

 

IMHO Sheffield would have floundered to find a professional side to stay up in just one year and equally all the hard work and investment Widnes were putting in would have gone down the pan.

 

Just a good example of P & R being a lose-lose situation??

 

Gary states ""Initially for promotion, there is one extremely strong candidate" – Fev" Well we are off again. Poor academy, low crowds, lower than the 3,700 Widnes had in the CC, and financially stretched to the limit. That is not extremely strong.

 

The debate constantly ignores the massive financial gap between the divisions and ignores the fact that SL failures have failed to manage their clubs in an environment that demands far far more than what is demanded of the supposedly "well managed" CC clubs. Is it really the case that the four lads who run Fax, Leigh, Fev and Sheffield are somehow proven "good managers" whilst the four lads who run London, Bradford, Wakefield and Cas are "poor managers" .

 

Should we really base P & R on such an ill judged assessment of the management qualities of individuals heading clubs???

 

2. I take your excellent point here. Is it fair to judge clubs on transient directors loans often lent against club assets. Will it strengthen Superleague If a multi millionaire owning keighley replaces Bradford???

 

Not good business and after a decade of hammering away at his club Mr. Davey has upped the crowds to over 2,000 fans less than the supposedly "badly failing" Bradford.

 

1. Sheffield, under standards based p and r, would only have had their promotion confirmed if the finances were in place to give them a chance of success.

 

2. Widnes would have been a strong bet to bounce back. The same management supported them in CC when they had been promised a SL licence, even though the team on the field was very poor. This time the team would be stronger.

 

3. Keighley with a multi millionaire, stable and growing crowds in their proposed rebuilt stadium would be better than Bradford lurching towards insolvency, losing thousands from their attendance in Odslum.

 

4. The same applies to Huddersfield. A stable Huddersfield slowly growing their crowds in a state of the art stadium are a better bet than Bradford. The point has been made elsewhere that Bradford's away following in now quite small and that, in any case, clubs should not budget based on away following ( Not that I totally agree with that ), so the only positive to having Bradford in SL is the size of their crowds which 1 are falling dramatically and 2 benefit no other club except the Bulls themselves.

[keighley]

Then why not replace the four with Leigh, Featherstone, Sheffield and Halifax and watch the massive nett loss in paying RL fans that will produce. Administrators all round.

 

Only if any of the four fall into a relegation spot will they be replaced by one of the four listed above, so 1 only one of the declining clubs will be replaced IF they end up relegated and 2. Only one of the Championship clubs will be promoted. I don't think there is any more danger of administrators moving in than there is a Bradford, Wakefield or London.

[keighley]

Blimey I had all on to find 9 clubs who could be self sufficient and grow in a well planned Superleague. I sneaked Widnes in there and everyone moaned.

 

Give me your 12 then?

 

That's not my point. My point is that the system you are discussing regarding away support co operation is not limited by the size of the league. Self sufficiency is another debate.

[Keith T]

It isn't split into three divisions

At professional level it is split into two competitions one of which is split into two divisions

Operational Rule B3.3 says,"The league competitions shall be divided in to three divisions".

[keighley]

We're not doomed with standards-based P&R.

 

We're utterly screwed with the comedy 3x8.

 

Spot on.