The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Whatever. There are three league tables in a hierachal split from SL to CC to CC1.

Correct

There are three league tables. So what?

 There are two separate competitions. One of these is divided into divisions.

 

There are not three divisions.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Operational Rule B3.3 says,"The league competitions shall be divided in to three divisions".

So we have super league, the championship(divided into championship and championship 1), what is the other?

 

Both of these competitions have different conditions applying to them

[yipyee]

One day, we'll run out of chairmen prepared to put in extra.  But - hey - not my problem.

 

If you read my post you will see I am agreeing with you but to spell it out........................

 

A club can be more liberal with projections if they have a chairman willing to make up any shortfall!!!!

 

I am in no way shape or form saying that's a good business model!!!!

 

To have unrealistic projections with no plan B (a chairmen with extra money to put in) is currently were some clubs are going wrong...i.e Bradford, they gambled on attendance and had no plan B!!!

 

What I am saying (if you read back) is that they should deal with absolutes and anything else is a bonus to re-invest the following year....

[Keith T]

So we have super league, the championship(divided into championship and championship 1), what is the other?

 

Both of these competitions have different conditions applying to them

In addition to stating that the league competitions shall be divided in to three separate divisions it says that super league will be run under SLE Articles of Association and the Championships by the Rfl Board.

I read that as SLE and the Championships are the league competitions divided in to 3 divisions.

[yipyee]

Why can't you do the same thing in a slightly larger well planned SL ?

 

The idea is to reduce SL as there isn't enough money for 14 clubs.....

 

But I am sure you will dream up some illogical response as to how this is achievable????

[yipyee]

Whatever. There are three league tables in a hierachal split from SL to CC to CC1.

 

 

No,

 

There is one Pro league.....with multi million pound clubs

 

Then theres a second tier of semi pro clubs........with two divisions........with clubs who operate at <1 mill

 

A Third Tier of leading community clubs

 

And a fourth tier of community clubs and pub teams.......

[Bob8]

A vibrant championship with it's on TV deal would be great and it would be a lot easier  to get to that point if the teams were playing for a SL spot. The very fact that RL is split into three divisions is proof that the 30 clubs in one big division is a thing of the past. I have seen no posters hearking for a return to that and in any event there are 37 clubs now.

 

What is galling to me is the desire for those in the SL to preserve it as a private club and keep other ambitious clubs out and the failures in SL in that league. Clubs want to be in SL because sport is about winning and the reason clubs exist is to win and the aim is to be the best and this means being in SL and winning the Grand Final as the ultimate. goal. 

How about ten clubs, which is about how many the game can support.  

 

Promote the top team that has reached the standards and has the potential and relegate the team that is not contributing enough.  Some seasons there will not be either.  

 

Then we are agreed.

[sweaty craiq]

.

Edited January 8, 2014 by sweaty craiq

[Dave T]

I have re-read all the 134 pages and my conclusion is a SL of Saints Wire W

...orkington?

[sweaty craiq]

I have re-read all 134 pages and my conclusion is we need a sl of Wigan Wire Saints Leeds Hull and Catalan, playing each other 4 times, followed by a 6 team play off to determine the champions. Each club to get £3m pa the rest can do one.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

You might be right. It was Giant Strides who was "championing" that but it would certainly be an easier sell if here was he end result of a promotion to be won rather than not

 

 

To be fair i was championing the Idea that the RFL get of their Thumbs and attempt to get a Tv deal for the Championship,   The point is that the SL chairmen say there is not enough money for them to keep up the standards, but there doesn't seem to be any more money coming into the game .

 

I want the RFL to spend some time on other things than formats that they claim are going to right all wrongs and make many CC much more successful, Where i ask is the money coming from to bring about this big improvment,Bearing in mind that the very people who are putting money in to their clubs, who in turn  deliver the SKY money, are being branded as Greedy and wanting it all.

 

Sky up to now have shown no interest whatever in the Championship,  Even the Fans of most of the clubs ( according to Parkies stats ) are showing less and less as the years go by, SL by contrast apears to be on the up ( again acording to the stats ) despite a couple of clubs getting into trouble, and to be fair even in trouble they still deliver more Fans than anyone who can replace them.

 

It makes more sence to me for SL to be left to decide it's own numbers, Let it fly the flag (so to speak) Lets find a way to make the Championship a success, Try and bring in the men who are running their own clubs successfully, I have certainly more faith in them than the RFL to come up with the way forward.

[keighley]

Correct

There are three league tables. So what?

 There are two separate competitions. One of these is divided into divisions.

 

There are not three divisions.

 

Yeah well come the revolution. Also see post 2658.

[keighley]

The idea is to reduce SL as there isn't enough money for 14 clubs.....

 

But I am sure you will dream up some illogical response as to how this is achievable????

 

I'll leave that to the supporters and management of the two clubs who will be getting dumped.

[keighley]

No,

 

There is one Pro league.....with multi million pound clubs

 

Then theres a second tier of semi pro clubs........with two divisions........with clubs who operate at <1 mill

 

A Third Tier of leading community clubs

 

And a fourth tier of community clubs and pub teams.......

 

Why don't you go and play in the traffic.? For the purposes of this reformatting of the league structure discussion., the only teams in play are those in SL and the Championships.

[keighley]

How about ten clubs, which is about how many the game can support.  

 

Promote the top team that has reached the standards and has the potential and relegate the team that is not contributing enough.  Some seasons there will not be either.  

 

Then we are agreed.

 

I don't think that is too far beyond the realms of possibility but I think 10 teams is getting dangerously close to not providing enough fixtures as happened in CC1 last season.

 

The devil might be in the details though. Which four clubs are to be sacrificed and who decides or will there be four teams, the bottom four teams, relegated, with, of course, a special exemption for the French because this is, after all, a European SL.

 

Either system is going to result in major discord.

[keighley]

You are slipping up. Only 50% of your answer focused on Bradford.

 

If Bradford weren't in the state that they are, then they wouldn't be cropping up in discussions over suitability for SL membership based on finances. if the cap fits, then wear it.

[yipyee]

I'll leave that to the supporters and management of the two clubs who will be getting dumped.

numpty, you said to expand the comp? Please explain how this would work in cloud cookoo land

[yipyee]

Why don't you go and play in the traffic.? For the purposes of this reformatting of the league structure discussion., the only teams in play are those in SL and the Championships.

so you want to abandon the community game? You dont want a whole game solution?

Like I say you don't care what happens to RL you just want your team in th top division no matter what the cost!

[keighley]

To be fair i was championing the Idea that the RFL get of their Thumbs and attempt to get a Tv deal for the Championship,   The point is that the SL chairmen say there is not enough money for them to keep up the standards, but there doesn't seem to be any more money coming into the game .

 

I want the RFL to spend some time on other things than formats that they claim are going to right all wrongs and make many CC much more successful, Where i ask is the money coming from to bring about this big improvment,Bearing in mind that the very people who are putting money in to their clubs, who in turn  deliver the SKY money, are being branded as Greedy and wanting it all.

 

Sky up to now have shown no interest whatever in the Championship,  Even the Fans of most of the clubs ( according to Parkies stats ) are showing less and less as the years go by, SL by contrast apears to be on the up ( again acording to the stats ) despite a couple of clubs getting into trouble, and to be fair even in trouble they still deliver more Fans than anyone who can replace them.

 

It makes more sence to me for SL to be left to decide it's own numbers, Let it fly the flag (so to speak) Lets find a way to make the Championship a success, Try and bring in the men who are running their own clubs successfully, I have certainly more faith in them than the RFL to come up with the way forward.

 

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. They will never increase the numbers in SL so long as it means less money for each of them, even the self sustaining top dogs. There will be some blood in the water when they have to downsize.

 

And why do you think the fans of CC clubs are declining ? Could it be that there is no chance of competing in their competition for a chance at the big boys. Sky did televise the Championships for a couple of seasons and the viewing figures were decent but I think soccer was given their time slot and the coverage ceased. Premier have it now but don't pay. If Premier become more successful, maybe there might be some money to be had. Who knows?

[The Parksider]

It's articles like this that make it clear much of the arguments against PR are a waste of time. It's happening. Regarding the restructuring of the game it is definitely not on topic.

Says you.

Of course any discussion on possible restructures of the game can include what's happening and what people think about it and what alternatives they may want to offer. It's on topic

And of course any discussion where there's a collective opinion that P & R was never much good before and will not be any good "when" it happens can project beyond the current plans.

Because if the forthcoming structure ends up being a mess and does not serve it's purpose as many predict with fair arguments that are not negativity, then it will be all change again, something several people have said.

Please allow a bit of free speech here!

[keighley]

numpty, you said to expand the comp? Please explain how this would work in cloud cookoo land

 

 

It takes one to know one. The point in issue was SL clubs co operating in encouraging their supporters to follow the team to away games to boost attendan

ces.  This has nothing to do with the size of the competition. This scheme could be implemented whether there were 6 or 60 teams in Sl.

 

Please explain how you couldn't follow that ?

[Ponterover]

Says you.

Of course any discussion on possible restructures of the game can include what's happening and what people think about it and what alternatives they may want to offer. It's on topic

And of course any discussion where there's a collective opinion that P & R was never much good before and will not be any good "when" it happens can project beyond the current plans.

Because if the forthcoming structure ends up being a mess and does not serve it's purpose as many predict with fair arguments that are not negativity, then it will be all change again, something several people have said.

Please allow a bit of free speech here!

 

Parky, did you read the article?

 

P&R is happening whether 3x8 comes in or not.  2 up, 2 down from 2015 if there is no agreement on 3x8.

 

Every single KPC and KPC1 club is in favour of 3x8, only six SL clubs are reported to be initially against, with Catalan said to have moved away from the rebels.  Barring disaster, RL gets it's new dawn.

 

Personally, as you may have detected, I'd prefer 3x8 to 2up, 2down.  But either is a step forward for the game.

[keighley]

so you want to abandon the community game? You dont want a whole game solution?

Like I say you don't care what happens to RL you just want your team in th top division no matter what the costI

 

I used to play for Keighley Albion ALRFC, the A being for amateur. I have said that if there is a demand for it then by all means have a whole game p and r structure. I never said I was abandoning the lower tiers. However teams like the Albion have 1. no desire to be professional and 2 could not mange it for the next twenty years or more.

 

Right now the discussion re p and r's return is confined to the pro game.

That's not my choice. That's what is being proposed by the SL clubs with input from the championship. Stop going off on this tangent.It's not on the agenda. Furthermore, what I want for Keighley is only of passing interest in this debate. If I was only interested in their fate, I would be championing ring fencing of the Championships from the CC1 to protect Keighley as the club is much more likely to be relegated to that division than be promoted to SL.

 

My arguments are not about Keighley. They ARE about p and r within the professional game. If you want to start a thread about p and r within the whole game, be my guest ?

[Ackroman]

Says you.

Of course any discussion on possible restructures of the game can include what's happening and what people think about it and what alternatives they may want to offer. It's on topic

And of course any discussion where there's a collective opinion that P & R was never much good before and will not be any good "when" it happens can project beyond the current plans.

Because if the forthcoming structure ends up being a mess and does not serve it's purpose as many predict with fair arguments that are not negativity, then it will be all change again, something several people have said.

Please allow a bit of free speech here!

 

Free speech is one thing. Repetitive off topic rubbish is another. I'm not surprised after 130 odd pages that there's little sense left, as I'm dizzy from all the recycling of myths, misinformation and peeing competitions over crowds or whatever. You yourself have attempted it enough times banging on about the viability of 2 clubs in Hull and mergers. Enough is Enough! The chairman of the top clubs, the CHampionship clubs and the RFL accept P&R is coming back, they are likely to accept 3x8. It does no-one any credit by repeatedly using the thread to create disharmony for the sake of it. 

 

I'll leave this thread for those who need it most if they refuse to set up one of their own. With any luck it'll get locked.

 

Edit: and if it does go t1ts up. By all means gleafully start a thread on the topic.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Ackroman

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas. They will never increase the numbers in SL so long as it means less money for each of them, even the self sustaining top dogs. There will be some blood in the water when they have to downsize.

 

And why do you think the fans of CC clubs are declining ? Could it be that there is no chance of competing in their competition for a chance at the big boys. Sky did televise the Championships for a couple of seasons and the viewing figures were decent but I think soccer was given their time slot and the coverage ceased. Premier have it now but don't pay. If Premier become more successful, maybe there might be some money to be had. Who knows?

 

 

I don't doubt what you say about blood in the water, I also don't doubt what you say could be the reason Fans are deserting their clubs, Allowing for that being true, Knowing the cause isn't stopping it is it.

 

Problem is getting C clubs up to the standard they need to be at to compete with SL clubs, and on the field is only the start of it,  I keep asking,  Where are Fev or Fax going to get 10,000 fans from on top of a very wealthy man, I know you are thinking ,It happened at Huddersfield it can happen at Fax, I agree it can , and when it does they will very quickly be in SL.

 

It seems fairly clear Fev are going to get their shot, Good for them, I truly hope hope Mr N has the staying power to see them through, The one thing in their favor is ,The second 8 is going to be easier for them than being in a straight 14 team SL,

 

There's a thought that this will just leave a 8 team SL, is that a step forward ?