The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Keith T]

Parky, did you read the article?

 

P&R is happening whether 3x8 comes in or not.  2 up, 2 down from 2015 if there is no agreement on 3x8.

 

Every single KPC and KPC1 club is in favour of 3x8, only six SL clubs are reported to be initially against, with Catalan said to have moved away from the rebels.  Barring disaster, RL gets it's new dawn.

 

Personally, as you may have detected, I'd prefer 3x8 to 2up, 2down.  But either is a step forward for the game.

 

Ponterover, all the Championship clubs may have voted in favour of the 3 x 8 system but that is not necessarily the view of those clubs supporters.   I know many fans of those clubs who don't want the 3 x 8 system and my personal view is that the reason clubs voted to accept it was the promise of more funding.    I don't think any of the clubs sought the views of their supporters, certainly didn't happen at my club and in general it is the supporters of the top four or five Championship clubs who seem to be wanting this most.

 

I am all for P and R returning and in a 2 x 12 competition I would have 1 club P and R.    I honestly believe that this would give your club a better chance of getting promoted than the 3 x 8 where the odds are definitely in favour of the 4 SL clubs.

[yipyee]

It takes one to know one. The point in issue was SL clubs co operating in encouraging their supporters to follow the team to away games to boost attendan

ces. This has nothing to do with the size of the competition. This scheme could be implemented whether there were 6 or 60 teams in Sl.

Please explain how you couldn't follow that ?

if you check back it's when you said to expand SL please keep up!

[l'angelo mysterioso]

You are claiming a bunch of no marks like Keighley could be a replacement. You need to get over your obsession bro.

the people at Keighley aren't no marks John

[GIANTSTRIDES]

I recon this thread has Probably run it's course for me, I am just repeating things over and over,  I see some people as dwelling in the past , They see me as something else.

 

We are all Fans at the end of the day, so we shall go with what's decided, Good luck to every team in the new season, And God please let us beat Warrington for a change.

[keighley]

You are claiming a bunch of no marks like Keighley could be a replacement. You need to get over your obsession bro.

 

The original hypothesis under discussion, and not proposed by myself, was IF Keighley had a multi million pound investor would they be a better fit for SL than the bunch of no marks running Bradford who are in and out of the club every second day.

 

You need to get over your delusions of grandeur on the greatness of the Bulls , bro. IF, and it's only a hypothetical IF, Keighley had a multi million pound investor, as things stand at present with the Bulls, Keighley would be the best fit for SL. It could be Batley. or Rochdale or even Crusaders which could fit into that analogy but the OP happened to put Keighley.

[keighley]

if you check back it's when you said to expand SL please keep up!

 

I think it's when I said "why couldn,t it be done with a larger SL as the OP had referenced a smaller league. That's not me saying expand SL although, if the money could be found, it would be a good thing. 5/10 for comprehension.

[keighley]

If he can call it Odslum, I aren't sure why I should be respectful. He can't talk about immigration or global warming without bringing the Bulls into it.

 

That's because Odsal has it's own climate.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

If he can call it Odslum, I aren't sure why I should be respectful. He can't talk about immigration or global warming without bringing the Bulls into it.

Because it's him/her  that's stupidly and inaccurately called it that

Not Keighley cougars

They are a fine club run by good people

Please don't associate him/ her with them

 

It's a  not reducing yourself to their pathetic level kind of thing

Edited January 8, 2014 by l'angelo mysterioso

[yipyee]

I used to play for Keighley Albion ALRFC, the A being for amateur. I have said that if there is a demand for it then by all means have a whole game p and r structure. I never said I was abandoning the lower tiers. However teams like the Albion have 1. no desire to be professional and 2 could not mange it for the next twenty years or more.

Right now the discussion re p and r's return is confined to the pro game.

That's not my choice. That's what is being proposed by the SL clubs with input from the championship. Stop going off on this tangent.It's not on the agenda. Furthermore, what I want for Keighley is only of passing interest in this debate. If I was only interested in their fate, I would be championing ring fencing of the Championships from the CC1 to protect Keighley as the club is much more likely to be relegated to that division than be promoted to SL.

My arguments are not about Keighley. They ARE about p and r within the professional game. If you want to start a thread about p and r within the whole game, be my guest ?

the word amateur reminds me of the class problem that plagued cricket......

I do not wish to go off topic....one of my points with the amateur clubs is that you clearly point out that your old amateur club is content at the level they are at and you think thats fine, you also think that if they wanted to progress it would take them twenty years to do so......presumably you are saying they need to develop off field.....

now this is totally different to your path of thought at tier2,

If I were to say tier2 clubs should be happy to stay at that level and if they want to progress then they should spend twenty years building and then apply.....you would support this way of thinking,?

If not why do you want to hold the community clubs back in this way when you feel differently about clubs further up the pyramid?

Do you see you want one rule for one and another for others?

You either want a pathway or you want closed tiers which you apply to jump up (or down) which is based on standards. ....

[keighley]

the word amateur reminds me of the class problem that plagued cricket......

I do not wish to go off topic....one of my points with the amateur clubs is that you clearly point out that your old amateur club is content at the level they are at and you think thats fine, you also think that if they wanted to progress it would take them twenty years to do so......presumably you are saying they need to develop off field.....

now this is totally different to your path of thought at tier2,

If I were to say tier2 clubs should be happy to stay at that level and if they want to progress then they should spend twenty years building and then apply.....you would support this way of thinking,?

If not why do you want to hold the community clubs back in this way when you feel differently about clubs further up the pyramid?

Do you see you want one rule for one and another for others?

You either want a pathway or you want closed tiers which you apply to jump up (or down) which is based on standards. ....

 

How many times do you want me to say that I am not against a total league pyramid with p and r but you just keep coming back saying I am against it. All I am saying is that there is no great clamour for a total pyramid progression ladder and that the present proposals do not encompass anyone outside the pro system. I am NOT, repeat NOT, repeat NOT against any p and r between cc1 and levels lower down the tree.

[The Parksider]

I'm dizzy from all the recycling of myths

 

I am too. I think it's time to just see what happens then we can dispel probable myths like P & R's return will increase attendances and create excitement, myths like just because a CC club is winning all it's games against bust DR minnows it's "well managed" and must replace far bigger clubs. Only time will confirm these as myths, but then again we may find it's a myth that applying strong business principles to Superleague rather than allowing drift or the tail to wag the dog could be a little more than a myth??

 

I think we have people on both sides of the broad argument (this is a mixture of threads hence the topic is wider than you indicate) who have said the same things for 135 pages, but do leave it to the moderators to decide if the thread has run it's course because they take a balanced view on these things and your view is as one sided as mine.

[The Parksider]

Parky, did you read the article? P&R is happening whether 3x8 comes in or not.  2 up, 2 down from 2015 if there is no agreement on 3x8. Every single KPC and KPC1 club is in favour of 3x8, only six SL clubs are reported to be initially against, with Catalan said to have moved away from the rebels.  Barring disaster, RL gets it's new dawn.Personally, as you may have detected, I'd prefer 3x8 to 2up, 2down.  But either is a step forward for the game.

 

Hi Ponte,

 

We knew weeks ago that the cut in Superleague and P & R were all but happening. For me there's no strong leadership here and the RFL bosses are trying to be everything to every man and the SLE bosses have no stomach for any really radical changes, as they are also club bosses and are probably a bit easier just looking after themselves (i.e. big SL clubs vote for an 8 club SL, struggling SL clubs vote for an end to the cost of licensing). For me the time will come for a closed Superleague when the problems the game has deteriorate further - IF indeed that is what will happen if we bring back P & R or 2x12=3x8.

 

For those who want to see P & R revitalise clubs and annually refresh the competition (despite this not happening in the past, many seasons where nobody came up, and those that did like Cas, HKR, Salford had serious money problems, only Huddersfield a success with their low crowds propped up by a mans £Millions) then let's hope there's a massive turn around in reality and the fans flock to the games.

 

For me any club outside SL MUST vote for P & R. How can they sell their clubs a dream if it's killed stone dead. How can they run "destination Superleague" campaigns to coincide with their season ticket advertising without P & R?? The irony is most clubs outside SL will not want promotion so why are they voting on it?? My problem is IMHO the likely overwhelming vote is overwhelmingly self interest and not for the "all for the good of the game" myth.

 

The reality I am personally sure is that promotion is about four clubs, three of whom have no money and deteriorating crowds and have failed badly in SL. However I've said for a couple of years now we have seriously unfinished business with Featherstone Rovers. If we really believe in fairness they need their chance and the vote for P & R will give them that. The die is cast, the business model is there for Rovers. Mr. Nahaboo has the Ken Davey book of how to succeed in Superleague and wouldn't it be great if we saw a grand final between Fartown and Rovers in 10 years time.

 

Rovers journey for the top will be a fascinating and interesting one, and like anyone who climbs Everest, on the way up you'll pass a few tired old bodies going down. I hope my post makes it before the thread is locked, I hope you make it before P & R is finally locked....

Edited January 9, 2014 by The Parksider

[yipyee]

How many times do you want me to say that I am not against a total league pyramid with p and r but you just keep coming back saying I am against it. All I am saying is that there is no great clamour for a total pyramid progression ladder and that the present proposals do not encompass anyone outside the pro system. I am NOT, repeat NOT, repeat NOT against any p and r between cc1 and levels lower down the tree.

but you think they should be happy at their level!

I think this of championship clubs, after growth they could apply to jump up a tier

[Ponterover]

Ponterover, all the Championship clubs may have voted in favour of the 3 x 8 system but that is not necessarily the view of those clubs supporters.   I know many fans of those clubs who don't want the 3 x 8 system and my personal view is that the reason clubs voted to accept it was the promise of more funding.    I don't think any of the clubs sought the views of their supporters, certainly didn't happen at my club and in general it is the supporters of the top four or five Championship clubs who seem to be wanting this most.

 

I am all for P and R returning and in a 2 x 12 competition I would have 1 club P and R.    I honestly believe that this would give your club a better chance of getting promoted than the 3 x 8 where the odds are definitely in favour of the 4 SL clubs.

 

You're probably right that straight forward P&R will be the best bet for Featherstone Rovers.

 

I still prefer 3x8 as the best solution for Rugby League going forward. 

 

Can't speak for other clubs, but Rovers have consulted fans, as have Cas.

[The Future is League]

Well I'm against P&R as for me its never benefitted Rugby League in the UK on the international stage.

[GaryO]

Hi Ponte,

We knew weeks ago that the cut in Superleague and P & R were all but happening. For me there's no strong leadership here and the RFL bosses are trying to be everything to every man and the SLE bosses have no stomach for any really radical changes, as they are also club bosses and are probably a bit easier just looking after themselves (i.e. big SL clubs vote for an 8 club SL, struggling SL clubs vote for an end to the cost of licensing). For me the time will come for a closed Superleague when the problems the game has deteriorate further - IF indeed that is what will happen if we bring back P & R or 2x12=3x8.

For those who want to see P & R revitalise clubs and annually refresh the competition (despite this not happening in the past, many seasons where nobody came up, and those that did like Cas, HKR, Salford had serious money problems, only Huddersfield a success with their low crowds propped up by a mans £Millions) then let's hope there's a massive turn around in reality and the fans flock to the games.

For me any club outside SL MUST vote for P & R. How can they sell their clubs a dream if it's killed stone dead. How can they run "destination Superleague" campaigns to coincide with their season ticket advertising without P & R?? The irony is most clubs outside SL will not want promotion so why are they voting on it?? My problem is IMHO the likely overwhelming vote is overwhelmingly self interest and not for the "all for the good of the game" myth.

The reality I am personally sure is that promotion is about four clubs, three of whom have no money and deteriorating crowds and have failed badly in SL. However I've said for a couple of years now we have seriously unfinished business with Featherstone Rovers. If we really believe in fairness they need their chance and the vote for P & R will give them that. The die is cast, the business model is there for Rovers. Mr. Nahaboo has the Ken Davey book of how to succeed in Superleague and wouldn't it be great if we saw a grand final between Fartown and Rovers in 10 years time.

Rovers journey for the top will be a fascinating and interesting one, and like anyone who climbs Everest, on the way up you'll pass a few tired old bodies going down. I hope my post makes it before the thread is locked, I hope you make it before P & R is finally locked....

[GaryO]

Hi Ponte,

We knew weeks ago that the cut in Superleague and P & R were all but happening. For me there's no strong leadership here and the RFL bosses are trying to be everything to every man and the SLE bosses have no stomach for any really radical changes, as they are also club bosses and are probably a bit easier just looking after themselves (i.e. big SL clubs vote for an 8 club SL, struggling SL clubs vote for an end to the cost of licensing). For me the time will come for a closed Superleague when the problems the game has deteriorate further - IF indeed that is what will happen if we bring back P & R or 2x12=3x8.

For those who want to see P & R revitalise clubs and annually refresh the competition (despite this not happening in the past, many seasons where nobody came up, and those that did like Cas, HKR, Salford had serious money problems, only Huddersfield a success with their low crowds propped up by a mans £Millions) then let's hope there's a massive turn around in reality and the fans flock to the games.

For me any club outside SL MUST vote for P & R. How can they sell their clubs a dream if it's killed stone dead. How can they run "destination Superleague" campaigns to coincide with their season ticket advertising without P & R?? The irony is most clubs outside SL will not want promotion so why are they voting on it?? My problem is IMHO the likely overwhelming vote is overwhelmingly self interest and not for the "all for the good of the game" myth.

The reality I am personally sure is that promotion is about four clubs, three of whom have no money and deteriorating crowds and have failed badly in SL. However I've said for a couple of years now we have seriously unfinished business with Featherstone Rovers. If we really believe in fairness they need their chance and the vote for P & R will give them that. The die is cast, the business model is there for Rovers. Mr. Nahaboo has the Ken Davey book of how to succeed in Superleague and wouldn't it be great if we saw a grand final between Fartown and Rovers in 10 years time.

Rovers journey for the top will be a fascinating and interesting one, and like anyone who climbs Everest, on the way up you'll pass a few tired old bodies going down. I hope my post makes it before the thread is locked, I hope you make it before P & R is finally locked....

[GaryO]

Sorry re the double post, mobile malfunction.

 

Just wanted to say after weeks on the subject my congratulations to Mr. Parksider in his eloquent summation of the topic, Great Post.  

[l'angelo mysterioso]

He started it Sir!

you let the school down, you let me down

 

 

but most of all you let yourself down

[marklaspalmas]

you let the school down, you let me down

 

 

but most of all you let yourself down

 

  The parents usually get a mention.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

  The parents usually get a mention.

bit of a minefield though Mark.

[marklaspalmas]

bit of a minefield though Mark.

 

Times change. We always used to get that.

 

We also managed to let down, or better still, be a disgrace to "the uniform" from time to time.

 

Hard to imagine. No sense in pointing that out at the time though......

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Times change. We always used to get that.

 

We also managed to let down, or better still, be a disgrace to "the uniform" from time to time.

 

Hard to imagine. No sense in pointing that out at the time though......

we were told that we were supposed to be young gentlemen

[marklaspalmas]

we were told that we were supposed to be young gentlemen

 

S'true. Everyone who went to Normanton Grammar is a gent.

[Keith T]

You're probably right that straight forward P&R will be the best bet for Featherstone Rovers.

 

I still prefer 3x8 as the best solution for Rugby League going forward. 

 

Can't speak for other clubs, but Rovers have consulted fans, as have Cas.

The RLE poll on whether individuals supported the 2 x 12, 3 x 8 system from almost 500 people, presumably from all areas of the game, voted Yes - 168 (34.1%); No - 325 (65.9%), almost 2 to 1 against.

Whilst the numbers are small I believe they are indicative of the feelings of the fans, especially Championship fans.