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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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On the whole question of P & R, I am pro to its concept but I do have an overriding fear, which for mine was the reason that it was dropped for the licensing concept in the first place, being:-

 

The promoted team had insufficient time to generate a team that was capable of competing at a much higher level than it had be come accustomed to playing in, the timing of the CC Grand Final was of such that the only players left available were the ones from the team heading in the opposite direction, or spending, or should I say wasting money on very ordinary overseas players.

 

Whatever the decision next week, and I do hope that we reinstate P & R, whether it is from 2x12 = 3x8 or straight 1 or 2 up/down, we should still use 2014 season for the qualification process for entry into the SL, but we should restrict the entry till the beginning of 2016, this could then be carried forward on that 2 season cycle, i.e. 2015 qualifiers gain entry in 2017................... and so on. 

 

The 2014 season as far as the SL is concerned could be deemed a "trial" season and not until the end of the 2015 season should the qualification for relegation be enforced, this would then revert to each season to mesh with annual P&R.

 

The promoted team should also be given the SL funding for the period they are in the “waiting season” this would allow them a full season of preparation and recruitment not only in playing personnel but also the backroom staff required, they could market the SL entry in their locality, give a big promotion to Season Ticket sales et, etc. in fact prepare accordingly and not as the knee jerk reaction as they had to do previous.

 

 

 

 

"If Rugby League had never been Invented, today we would only have Rugby League"

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What ?

Paid ? You think I'm suggesting you pay an optional separate fee for the Cup ticket ?

Get real and move on ........

you did do you suggested ten pound for the ticket, when I pointed out the error of your suggestion you tell me to move on!!! From this I take it you know see the error of your point, you are just not man enough to admit it!!!!

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Thats possibly true and it would have been mych better fanwise if theyd gone up promoted rather than gifted. We'll never know as ludicrous licensing came in about half way through the season and some clubs in that division gave up I think. If it had been all to play for who knows.....

thats a very one eyed view of events! Maybe they were just the second best team....

Fev, fax, gateshead, barrow and widnes all applied for a licence. ....who gave up? Also I am told clubs wouldnt 'give up' to prevent promotion underP&R so which is it?????

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I am not going to argue because I don 't have the facts at my disposal but, from memory the division suffered from having some not so well supported teams in it and that, plus the repetitive nature of the fixtures resulted In some poor attendances. As I recall some of the teams were Swinton, Carlisle, Rochdale and London and the attendances were poor.

 

I have searched the net and the books at my disposal but can't find the averages for the two seasons this system was in operation which was 1990/91  and 1992/93.

 

No, it was 1991/92 and 1992/93.  In 1991/92, Sheffield's average attendance was just under 2500.  Reduced to less than 1000 by last season - 60% gone.

 

The teams were, Sheffield, Leigh, Oldham, London, York, Carlisle, Rochdale and Workington.  Not many derby games in there.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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thats a very one eyed view of events! Maybe they were just the second best team....

Fev, fax, gateshead, barrow and widnes all applied for a licence. ....who gave up? Also I am told clubs wouldnt 'give up' to prevent promotion underP&R so which is it?????

fev didn't apply and neither did Gateshead, barrows was dismissed almost immediately. Only Halifax and widnes we're judged properly against the super league clubs and halifax were shot down. It was widely believed widnes was already guaranteed before the application process, they were so confident they were already taking season ticket orders
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you did do you suggested ten pound for the ticket, when I pointed out the error of your suggestion you tell me to move on!!! From this I take it you know see the error of your point, you are just not man enough to admit it!!!!

 

Yeah mate - you need to put a value on it for accounting between the clubs.

 

Aside from that, a few years ago, people had a ticket for a Challenge Cup game - not all of them used it.

 

And if I were a club secretary I'd love to have the problem of people not being able to get in my club's ground.

 

Now - if you've no sensible criticisms, move on.   I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this was just a wind-up.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Only Halifax and widnes we're judged properly against the super league clubs and halifax were shot down. It was widely believed widnes was already guaranteed before the application process, they were so confident they were already taking season ticket orders

 

There was no fiddle as far as I am concerned.

 

Widnes had a rich man waving literally hundreds of thousands of real pounds at the RFL/SLE whilst all Halifax offered was a possibility of money on paper if their fanciful plans worked out...........

Edited by The Parksider
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fev didn't apply and neither did Gateshead, barrows was dismissed almost immediately. Only Halifax and widnes we're judged properly against the super league clubs and halifax were shot down. It was widely believed widnes was already guaranteed before the application process, they were so confident they were already taking season ticket orders

I am OBVIOUSLY on about the first round of licencing when anyone could apply! Toulouse also applied!

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Yeah mate - you need to put a value on it for accounting between the clubs.

Aside from that, a few years ago, people had a ticket for a Challenge Cup game - not all of them used it.

And if I were a club secretary I'd love to have the problem of people not being able to get in my club's ground.

Now - if you've no sensible criticisms, move on. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that this was just a wind-up.

so therefore you want to give free tickets to the first round? (That SL clubs are in) this was tried and tested and failed, you are just solving a problem with an old solution that failed!

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I wonder if licensing would have worked better if there was a new club every year rather than every three years?

For me, the main issue was this "three year window" for all clubs before anything happened. It was really stale. It stopped decisions being made when they needed to be made and clubs could just trundle along fine. And the biggest thing for me was because it takes so long to get an opportunity to come in or go out, fans were losing interest because they didn't believe it would happen.

I think the licensing process would have worked better if a Championship (or other) club was given a license in January every year for the following year (giving them a year to prepare), and the team to miss out would be announced at the end of the season (shortlist as the season goes by).

New side gets three years of stay at least before being able to be shortlisted. Keeps SL fresh. Makes clubs have to sort there ship out every year and, because there's a promotion spot every year, losing a license is not the black hole that it is now. They'd have plenty of opportunities to get promotion again if they sort things out.

The current licensing system as it is (was) was never going to work.

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Just wondered if the 3 x 8 is adopted how this would affect the TV contract?At the moment Sky aren,t covering the Championship clubs so who would televise the middle tier?

Depends how they sort out the rights issue.

If this tier doesn't count as "Super League" (which I'm not sure of), then maybe BT Sport or someone could pick it up and offer a two month subscription contract? Could be a good way for them to dip their toe into RL.

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I wonder if licensing would have worked better if there was a new club every year rather than every three years?

For me, the main issue was this "three year window" for all clubs before anything happened. It was really stale. It stopped decisions being made when they needed to be made and clubs could just trundle along fine. And the biggest thing for me was because it takes so long to get an opportunity to come in or go out, fans were losing interest because they didn't believe it would happen.

I think the licensing process would have worked better if a Championship (or other) club was given a license in January every year for the following year (giving them a year to prepare), and the team to miss out would be announced at the end of the season (shortlist as the season goes by).

New side gets three years of stay at least before being able to be shortlisted. Keeps SL fresh. Makes clubs have to sort there ship out every year and, because there's a promotion spot every year, losing a license is not the black hole that it is now. They'd have plenty of opportunities to get promotion again if they sort things out.

The current licensing system as it is (was) was never going to work.

 

Lot of sense in that.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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There was no fiddle as far as I am concerned.

Widnes had a rich man waving literally hundreds of thousands of real pounds at the RFL/SLE whilst all Halifax offered was a possibility of money on paper if their fanciful plans worked out...........

Thank god they went with the robust plans of Wakefield, Bradford and Salford eh? Edited by a.n Other
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I never ever said that my old Claret and Gold Fartowner friend. The required money is £6,000,000 per club which is roughly what the big six clubs Hull, Saints, Wire, Cats, Leeds and Wigan turn over. Diluting that isn't an option unless you want more top players walking away.

 

Nobody can show me a Championship club capable of that proper SL level of spend. What their fans do is predict that Championship clubs will find very rich owners (excited by P & R) and they will become one overnight. Your own club is exactly that. In 2007 you finally made the play offs in Superleague attracting 7,068 fans.

 

Ken's pumped the £Millions in to keep the investment going since and the return over the last seven years has been no trophies and a drop in crowds to 6,368. As I understand it Featherstone Rovers are now adopting that business plan due to their mentor having "Money coming out of his ears". Salford are on the very same business plan which doesn't require an audience.

 

Far from the fans being "Important" being people who "should have a say" who should "cast votes" they are actually totally  irrelevant in terms of the Marwan Koukash, Ken Davey and Faisal Nahaboo business plan.

 

If you want an SL with the strongest "real world" business plan it looks like 10 clubs @ £6,000,0000 spread out across the M62 and southern france. That's the customer choice if anyone want's Elite RL. Every penny goes into that. Fans can take it or leave it and go watch their supporters run club, or their local amateur club.

 

Sure they play each other 3 times at least, but that's been going on for years and years. It's a problem yes.

 

 

No i know it's not something you were calling for, It's something you have mentioned once or twice that might happen, You are right  It's a very real possibillity.

 

On the face of it It should suit me well, I love to watch the big Derbies onTV Saints, Wigan ,Wolves, In fact all the top clubs, The Hull Derby is usually a cracker, But there is certainly a danger from too many repeated fixtures.

 

After the best part of 3,000 posts ,i have seen no evidence of more money coming into the game, There are plenty of might be's and so on, Myself i just dont see fans retuning in their thousands to watch the middle teir games, that people seem to be accepting now will be at a lower level.

 

I can accept the argument that it has to be tried before you will know, But all these fixtures that are going to swell the crowds were there before SL came along, Despite trying 3 leagues, 2 leagues and the traditional 1 league, the game has continued to go down hill as far as crowds are concerned.

 

The game is so dependent on Money now that apart from the odd CC upsett it is going to take something very special at the better Championship clubs for them to get anywhere near the top clubs, and i also think there is a very good chance that the second tier will be dominated by 2/3 clubs, which will be just as boring as many say that SL is,  In fact it will be worse because it will be at a lower level.

 

For me a 12 club SL with P&R of either 1 or 2 clubs could be the way forward,  This new thing will be given it's chance like all the others i expect, But SL has been getting more and more competitive, and next year looks like being even better, Why would you want to risk spoiling that. For me It's the best part of the game,

 

Whatever level Huddersfield play at i shall continue to support them , But they are 1 tooth on the cog, as are all other clubs, If they get to a position where they can't hack it in the top league, then they have to go, till they get back to where they can hack it . I still want to see the best on TV, and i would do nothing that would jepodise that, It is by far the main reason i pay for SKY,  There must be a lot more like me.

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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so therefore you want to give free tickets to the first round? (That SL clubs are in) this was tried and tested and failed, you are just solving a problem with an old solution that failed!

 

I'm not sure how many times I need to say this - the problem is in the way the clubs dealt with the gate sharing.  That's all I changed.  I don't need to defend something you thought I said.

 

If you haven't understood it by now, you never will.

 

I'm going to put you on "ignore" now before I say something very rude which I'll no doubt regret

 

I'll just leave you with one last thought - when one buys a season ticket, does one pay the same amount for each game or do some games cost more than others ?

 

Whatever your reply - how do you know that ?

Edited by Griff

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Firstly what you may have found at Leeds is that there's nothing "Vital" about most of the games at Headingley. As long as the team is winning enough games to be in the mix, the club isn't that bothered because the season starts in July when you have to try to up your game, get into form "at the right time of the season" (something Nobby taught Mac) then the real "vital" business starts.

 

I don't view RL games as "meaningless" in an attempt to justify P & R and I don't think you should fall for that. The records and the facts are clear, failure and second tier RL is "meaningless" to people.

 

When we know who will win the trophies then it renders most games meaningless but somehow tens of thousands of fans turn out for "meaningless".

 

All spectator sport is entertainment . I think the reality is people want big games, close games and a good positive night out watching top class players in front of great crowds. If they didn't them why do they buy so many season tickets for it.

 

I am aware of the repetitivenss of fixtures we have if we have too few teams, but the solution to a hitch in a good plan is not to abandon the plan but to sort it.

 

The first thing I'd look at is abandoning Millenium and saving all the costs of that, and putting on three double header league games. Hull.v.Wakefield, Leeds.v.Bradford at Elland Road with a seven comp?

 

Saints.v.Wigan, Warrington.v.Widnes at a big Lancashire soccer ground?? Toulouse.v.Les Catalans in wherever?? This could up the profits on league games, create showcase games, and cut out one of the third fixtures.

 

Then again we could bring back P & R.

I agree with your general comment and of course as now I go to games that are not vital as I enjoy watching the game but a factor that may impact me will be too much repetition... time will tell if the 2 into x3 comes about. Although it isn't the best option in my opinion as discussed previously.

 

With regards to Magic I think it may have to be re-considered in the light of a structure that means you drop down into a lower x8 tier. It would seem unfair if a likely first x8 team plays a likely lower tier team if other teams play higher level opposition and those points make the difference. You could argue that it applies now for the play-offs but it seems to me a more drastic result if a team drops into the 2nd tier x8 than currently.  Of course that premise is based on me assuming a negative impact for those SL teams that are not in the super8.

 

Maybe magic weekend should be changed, as suggested elsewhere, into a nine's type weekend major event as per the upcoming event in NZ. It including teams from outside superleague.

Edited by redjonn
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You are correct being short of money is not good for the game. I didn't know i had suggested it was. My point was that the thread was about the new structure of the game , Or both sides of the argument for it . It now seems to have been accepted as a given, and the argument has shifted to money from crowds.

.

 

I inferred from your point about recent posts being about money that you reckoned it shouldn't be so important.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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The only reason this thread hasn't been locked as past its sell-by date is that we know that someone will start another thread on the subject.

 

That said, we're not going to turn a blind eye to unwarranted abuse.  Please stop.

"When in deadly danger, when beset by doubt; run in little circles, wave your arms and shout"

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Firstly I don't advocate an 8 team league, it's you who keeps suggesting I do. I know for a fact the Superleague bosses who have the accounts say SL is unsustainable at 14. The best evidence is the sight of scratch teams at Salford and London shipping in 1,900 points before average gates of 2,600

 

I do "believe" it doesn't threfore follow that Superleague is sustainable at 12. Above those clubs you have two relatively big sides in Bradford and Wakefield both capable of big crowds, in administration and both coming out of administration and straight back into debt.

 

Next up are two clubs one heavily in debt to their directors with the asset of their ground at risk, because they couldn't sell it for enough to secure a modern venue that doesn't eat money. Then another club who have spent money on their ground to hopefully entertain more fans whilst at the same time leaking their best players to predatory clubs. Two more major accidents "waiting to happen". You say......

 

"P and r on a conventional model might be a better bet because it would sustain interest by changing the makeup of the league producing new, unusual fixtures, maybe even new derbys and also the money to be found by the CC clubs might be more sustainable than some constant cellar dwelling team who had exhausted it's financial resources.

 

There's no interest in P & R for the umpteenth time, all the interest is in top class elite RL. There's no money at the CC clubs again for the umpteenth time. The last money I heard was a Wonga loan from Nahaboo to Featherstone, which they spent.

 

From the amount of support p and r is receiving on this thread and from the expressions of interest on a return to some form of p and r emanating from the league leaders and administrators, I would say that there is a lot of interest on p and r, despite it being one of your pet hates and worst fears.

 

There is no money at Bradford and Wakefield and Castleford and who knows how long there will be any at London. Fev have it, Halifax have recently had more money from a sponsor. Leigh seem confident they can hack SL. What are you afraid of ?. Let the chips fall and relegate some of those in trouble and promote some of the stronger Championship teams with apparent investment.

 

Ring fencing failures is definitely not a good game plan for the future.

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I never ever said that my old Claret and Gold Fartowner friend. The required money is £6,000,000 per club which is roughly what the big six clubs Hull, Saints, Wire, Cats, Leeds and Wigan turn over. Diluting that isn't an option unless you want more top players walking away.

 

Nobody can show me a Championship club capable of that proper SL level of spend. What their fans do is predict that Championship clubs will find very rich owners (excited by P & R) and they will become one overnight. Your own club is exactly that. In 2007 you finally made the play offs in Superleague attracting 7,068 fans.

 

Ken's pumped the £Millions in to keep the investment going since and the return over the last seven years has been no trophies and a drop in crowds to 6,368. As I understand it Featherstone Rovers are now adopting that business plan due to their mentor having "Money coming out of his ears". Salford are on the very same business plan which doesn't require an audience.

 

Far from the fans being "Important" being people who "should have a say" who should "cast votes" they are actually totally  irrelevant in terms of the Marwan Koukash, Ken Davey and Faisal Nahaboo business plan.

 

If you want an SL with the strongest "real world" business plan it looks like 10 clubs @ £6,000,0000 spread out across the M62 and southern france. That's the customer choice if anyone want's Elite RL. Every penny goes into that. Fans can take it or leave it and go watch their supporters run club, or their local amateur club.

 

Sure they play each other 3 times at least, but that's been going on for years and years. It's a problem yes.

 

I believe Huddersfield did finally win a trophy this last season and Leeds didn't.

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Firstly what you may have found at Leeds is that there's nothing "Vital" about most of the games at Headingley. As long as the team is winning enough games to be in the mix, the club isn't that bothered because the season starts in July when you have to try to up your game, get into form "at the right time of the season" (something Nobby taught Mac) then the real "vital" business starts.

 

I don't view RL games as "meaningless" in an attempt to justify P & R and I don't think you should fall for that. The records and the facts are clear, failure and second tier RL is "meaningless" to people.

 

When we know who will win the trophies then it renders most games meaningless but somehow tens of thousands of fans turn out for "meaningless".

 

All spectator sport is entertainment . I think the reality is people want big games, close games and a good positive night out watching top class players in front of great crowds. If they didn't them why do they buy so many season tickets for it.

 

I am aware of the repetitivenss of fixtures we have if we have too few teams, but the solution to a hitch in a good plan is not to abandon the plan but to sort it.

 

The first thing I'd look at is abandoning Millenium and saving all the costs of that, and putting on three double header league games. Hull.v.Wakefield, Leeds.v.Bradford at Elland Road with a seven comp?

 

Saints.v.Wigan, Warrington.v.Widnes at a big Lancashire soccer ground?? Toulouse.v.Les Catalans in wherever?? This could up the profits on league games, create showcase games, and cut out one of the third fixtures.

 

Then again we could bring back P & R.

 

"Failure is meaningless to people" you say but you champion a format where failing teams are retained for years at a time.

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