The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Rover and out]

If p&r comes back could we not give the promoted team an exemption from relegation for say a season or two?

Edited January 14, 2014 by Rover and out

[Martyn Sadler]

If p&r comes back could we not give the promoted team am exemption from relegation for say a season or two?

I think you need at least 3 years, which my system gives you.

[nadera78]

I stated that ring fencing SL allows them to take the pieces of silver, slash playing and development budgets to pay off debt, I stated that is what is happening now imo and is not good for the game

We need to improve our pool of FT players eligible for eng/wales/France in the short term 20 clubs does that for what we currently have, longer term I expect those 20 to grow their own wood via the junior games promotion and would also advocate centrally run academies as the majority of clubs have shown they can't produce players, possibly wire Wigan saints Leeds and hull to stand alone with a Calder Kirklees and Lancashire run by the RFL

Increased intensity at the top will put bums on seats and viewers on subs, a relegation/promotion scrap does the same

Anyone thinking this robs revenue from the elite when you consider the opportunities it opens is very blinkered

Taking an average semi-pro player and giving him full time wages not make him a quality player capable of playing for England, etc. It simply makes him better paid, but he's still going to be an average player.

 

We need a better standard elite league and a better standard of player being produced. Having 20 clubs paying full time wages instead of 14 does neither of those things.

[yipyee]

But clubs are moaning (Tony Smith certainly is) that younger players are being released and then either going to Union, being lost to the game, or being part-time in the Championship. None of these are great options. 

 

Surely you can see the benefits of these players being able to stay in  fulltime environment?

 

There are players that are even now making the step up from Championship to Super League (Chris Hill and Alex Walmsley are great examples).

 

Why do you think a player staying full time at Leigh on £30k is worse than them being part-time on £10k but having to work on a building site? I disagree strongly with this. Full time professionalism benefits players.

 

Who said anything about a building site?

 

whats wrong with working as a teacher or accountant etc....

[yipyee]

Taking an average semi-pro player and giving him full time wages not make him a quality player capable of playing for England, etc. It simply makes him better paid, but he's still going to be an average player.

 

We need a better standard elite league and a better standard of player being produced. Having 20 clubs paying full time wages instead of 14 does neither of those things.

 

 

What it would do is raise the standard of the second division....... how its funded is another matter....

[Dave T]

Taking an average semi-pro player and giving him full time wages not make him a quality player capable of playing for England, etc. It simply makes him better paid, but he's still going to be an average player.

 

We need a better standard elite league and a better standard of player being produced. Having 20 clubs paying full time wages instead of 14 does neither of those things.

It doesn't have to be an average semi-pro player. If you are allowed to spend more on players in the lower division then maybe you can offer full time contracts to some of the young talent on the verges at other clubs.

 

Also, whilst the England team should be a focus, and I am as big an international fan as you will get, not every decision should be made based on the England team. Creating a vibrant, exciting competition will have its knock on benefits for the England team.

 

Whether this option does that is up for debate, but I don't see an issue with giving more lads a chance of earning a full time living from RL.

[Dave T]

Who said anything about a building site?

 

whats wrong with working as a teacher or accountant etc....

Me.

 

Nothing.

[Dave T]

What it would do is raise the standard of the second division....... how its funded is another matter....

Do you not think it will raise the standard of the SL?

 

I certainly think cutting two teams (and 4 games) and replacing them with games against teams at your level will make it more intense. I'd rather Wigan were playing the likes of Warrington, Leeds, Saints, Catalan etc than the bottom teams.

[Terry Mullaney]

Quite the reverse, Terry.

 

Actually there is a debate to be had about the length of the season. I do agree that it's too long, and yet your club has been playing matches it doesn't need to play since New Year's Day.

 

Of course there would be a top-8 play-off (if that's what we stick with) in year 3.

 

Given what would be at stake, I don't doubt that the players, clubs and fans would be well up for it.

 

And your other question: "Would the previous two champions give full commitment in the third season, knowing they've got their place in the promotion play offs already secured?"

 

Of course they would, because it would be strongly to their advantage to reduce the number of teams that would qualify for promtion, and to secure a home play-off.

 

I'm glad to say that it's eminently workable and much more so than the alternatives.

 

Don't be such a pessimist!

 

You could have some thrilling games to look forward to.

I'm no pessimist Martyn, just a realist. How can you expect clubs to take part in two play off competitions at the end of a gruelling season? They'd still be playing while others are starting pre season training. There are too many grey areas for it to be successful and the three year period has proved unpopular with the fans during the disastrous licensing system. Crowds are down because the game has become sterile and dull. It needs reinvigorating and the RFL have come up with the answer in my opinion.

[yipyee]

Do you not think it will raise the standard of the SL?

 

I certainly think cutting two teams (and 4 games) and replacing them with games against teams at your level will make it more intense. I'd rather Wigan were playing the likes of Warrington, Leeds, Saints, Catalan etc than the bottom teams.

 

I was refering to keeping full time players full time when they drop a division...

 

 

They may lack the skill to be SL quality.....

 

But if they stay full time they will reach there potential, dropping training to semi-pro and spending 40hrs a week dedicated to anther proffesion will obviously see your performance drop and each full time player wont be hitting their full potential.....

 

therefore by keeping full-time when dropping down would raise the playing standards of the second tier...... as I mentioned the only issue is as ever money....

 

Whats also interesting is that people point to how players 'move up' from the championship tier to SL..... well from memory (please correct if wrong) they are players who have played for academy's or youth systems at 'lower' clubs and are therefore full time players... they are reaching their potential in a professional surrounding and have the quality for SL...

 

For the championship tier to be the best it can be then obviously for those players to reach their full potential they need to be training full time.... The area you can get caught up in is thinking that these players full potential is good enough for SL.....

[Dave T]

I was refering to keeping full time players full time when they drop a division...

 

 

They may lack the skill to be SL quality.....

 

But if they stay full time they will reach there potential, dropping training to semi-pro and spending 40hrs a week dedicated to anther proffesion will obviously see your performance drop and each full time player wont be hitting their full potential.....

 

therefore by keeping full-time when dropping down would raise the playing standards of the second tier...... as I mentioned the only issue is as ever money....

 

Whats also interesting is that people point to how players 'move up' from the championship tier to SL..... well from memory (please correct if wrong) they are players who have played for academy's or youth systems at 'lower' clubs and are therefore full time players... they are reaching their potential in a professional surrounding and have the quality for SL...

 

For the championship tier to be the best it can be then obviously for those players to reach their full potential they need to be training full time.... The area you can get caught up in is thinking that these players full potential is good enough for SL.....

I think we agree.

 

The other thing to look at is improving the standard and entertainment level of the lower division, which having more full time players should do should not be dismissed as unnecessary.

 

IMHO we should be looking to improve the standard at all levels of the game.

 

As you say, the stumbling block, as always, is funding.

[Methven Hornet]

 Thank you! Over 3000 posts so far but only a few days to go and all will be revealed.

 

Till the next time!

[Martyn Sadler]

I'm no pessimist Martyn, just a realist. How can you expect clubs to take part in two play off competitions at the end of a gruelling season? They'd still be playing while others are starting pre season training. There are too many grey areas for it to be successful and the three year period has proved unpopular with the fans during the disastrous licensing system. Crowds are down because the game has become sterile and dull. It needs reinvigorating and the RFL have come up with the answer in my opinion.

You mention a lot of issues there, some of them not related to the structure of the leagues. But the point is that the RFL's proposals are unpopular with supporters, as our Readers' Poll revealed. A 2 to 1 majority against the two-twelves, three-eights proposal.

 

Don't forget that any player who is involved in international competition will play beyond the Grand Final. Did Ben Hellewell look shattered when he was playing for Scotland?

 

If you believe the game has become sterile and dull that's your prerogative, but I don't think any league reorganisation will cure that feeling for you.

 

And unfortunately you're not a realist, because you close your eyes to the damage that annual promotion and relegation does to clubs when they are having constantly to adjust from full-time to part-time status, and vice versa.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Martyn Sadler

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Some great posts and some not so great, but all interesting,

 

As has been alluded too, No one knows what is happening yet, But one thing is absolutely certain for me, The games major problem is shortage of money, IMO messing about with SL in the hope it will somehow kick start everything below it, is not going to solve it.

 

The game has to generate more revenue, Especially below SL level , There have been some good ideas on here , but i have not seen one Post that said, This will improve revenue.

 

Again IMO don't do anything to jeopardize the comp that is delivering a known amount of money, on the strength of something that might work , or might not.

 

I completely fail to see how jiggling the same amount of money about, increases it in any way,  The argument is that it will revitalise fans interest in the game below SL, but there is no evidence for this as yet,

 

So it seems to me that the 4 bottom clubs in SL , will drop down to play with the top 4 of the league below, and these 4 clubs are in essence the ones who are going to bring about this transformation, Should they finish in the top 4 places, which is more than possible, what has changed ?, other than SL will have far more repeated fixtures.  Unless i have this wrong.

[Dave T]

Some great posts and some not so great, but all interesting,

 

As has been alluded too, No one knows what is happening yet, But one thing is absolutely certain for me, The games major problem is shortage of money, IMO messing about with SL in the hope it will somehow kick start everything below it, is not going to solve it.

 

The game has to generate more revenue, Especially below SL level , There have been some good ideas on here , but i have not seen one Post that said, This will improve revenue.

 

Again IMO don't do anything to jeopardize the comp that is delivering a known amount of money, on the strength of something that might work , or might not.

 

I completely fail to see how jiggling the same amount of money about, increases it in any way,  The argument is that it will revitalise fans interest in the game below SL, but there is no evidence for this as yet,

 

So it seems to me that the 4 bottom clubs in SL , will drop down to play with the top 4 of the league below, and these 4 clubs are in essence the ones who are going to bring about this transformation, Should they finish in the top 4 places, which is more than possible, what has changed ?, other than SL will have far more repeated fixtures.  Unless i have this wrong.

The top 8 will all remove 4 games against the two weakest teams in the league and replace them with 7 games against top 8 teams. That is one way where more money will be brought into the equation.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

Now I can say this at last. The game is a laughing stock.

Small time sport for small time people. Enjoy.

Sad but true

 

What a waste of a wonderful sport.

 

The irony is that rugby league has such a tradition of progressiveness.

[Dave T]

Sad but true

 

What a waste of a wonderful sport.

 

The irony is that rugby league has such a tradition of progressiveness.

It's not true. RL is not a laughing stock because of this. Most people are not bothered.

 

It's a point RL fans use when a decision goes against their thinking.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

If p&r comes back could we not give the promoted team an exemption from relegation for say a season or two?

What would happen to teams who have won the championship division two or whatever you want to call it? Where's the fairness and justice in that? You can't have promotion without relegation.

On the other has and you could do that until everyone is in the first division: jobs a good un

[l'angelo mysterioso]

I'm no pessimist Martyn, just a realist. How can you expect clubs to take part in two play off competitions at the end of a gruelling season? They'd still be playing while others are starting pre season training. There are too many grey areas for it to be successful and the three year period has proved unpopular with the fans during the disastrous licensing system. Crowds are down because the game has become sterile and dull. It needs reinvigorating and the RFL have come up with the answer in my opinion.

How do you know that this is the case?

Are you saying that games at the bigfellas stadium are sterile and dull?

[l'angelo mysterioso]

It's not true. RL is not a laughing stock because of this. Most people are not bothered.

 

It's a point RL fans use when a decision goes against their thinking

I know

[Dave T]

I know

I can't keep up, are we arguing or not??? 

[GIANTSTRIDES]

The top 8 will all remove 4 games against the two weakest teams in the league and replace them with 7 games against top 8 teams. That is one way where more money will be brought into the equation.

 

I see what you are saying, But it's based on playing more fixtures against the same clubs, and Fans turning up in bigger numbers for these fixtures. I see that it might work but it equally might not, and are these bottom 4 clubs really going to have that sort of impact on the middle league ?.

 

I'm not shooting you down here,  Its just none of it is known.

[nadera78]

What it would do is raise the standard of the second division....... how its funded is another matter....

But raising the standard of the 2nd tier does nothing for player production and does nothing to strengthen the top tier, nor the England team. Those were the claims made by the poster I was responding to.

Fundamentally, we do not have enough money for the elite game. And yet our response is to further dilute the small resources we do have. It makes no sense.

Edited January 14, 2014 by nadera78

[Keith T]

Is the first SL clubs meeting re. Governance today or next Tuesday? They meet on Friday re. Restructuring.

[Dave T]

I see what you are saying, But it's based on playing more fixtures against the same clubs, and Fans turning up in bigger numbers for these fixtures. I see that it might work but it equally might not, and are these bottom 4 clubs really going to have that sort of impact on the middle league ?.

 

I'm not shooting you down here,  Its just none of it is known.

No, but none of it will ever be 'known' they need to be calculated risks.

 

Some analysis on the repeat fixtures when we were at 12 teams would support the point I made I expect, but there will always be quirks due to the local derbies etc.

 

The repeat fixtures is a potential issue, without question, but if I'm honest in the absence of more strong teams, repeat fixtures are probably the way to go.