The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Ponterover]

Is there a link to that as I can't find it now?

 

Neither can I

[yipyee]

Super League feels like it has lost its appeal at the moment anyway, gone are the days that me and all my mates where excited when Friday came round so we could all go the pub and watch the match (whoever was playing).

The Championship chases Super League like Super League chases the NRL, the only difference is The Championship has closed the gap whereas the Super League is further away than it ever has been.

Over recent years the Championship has grown IMO, with the TV coverage, sponsors, attendances, competitive teams, stadium developments, club structures & finances, to the point where there is very little between the bottom 4 of Super League and the top 4 in the Championship (playing wise). im sure somebody will pick holes in this though.

SL needs to be cut, as its just not "Super" enough anymore!

 

 

I remember when NRL clubs put 40 -80 points on SL clubs...

 

Now the games are much closer with victories for both sides.....

 

OH and didn't you watch the championship champions play the worst team in SL.... wasn't very close was it?

[Martyn Sadler]

Have you forgotten the poll on this website earlier in the year that had 3x8 as a narrow winner? Was this poll less valid than the one that gives you your preferred result?

 

Ben Hellewell played only a handfull of games last year, not a great example.

 

I think you need to look again at 3x8, the adjustment you speak of simply will not be required.

If I recall correctly, that was a forum poll which would have had a far smaller number of voters than the numbers who voted in our Readers' Poll.

 

Unfortunately the two-twelves, three-eights structure will create a mentality among all clubs that they must be in the top eight come what may, and they will spend money they haven't got in order to try to get there and then remain there. It is inherently destabilising, in the same way that the old-style promotion and relegation used to be.

[Dave T]

Super League feels like it has lost its appeal at the moment anyway, gone are the days that me and all my mates where excited when Friday came round so we could all go the pub and watch the match (whoever was playing).

The Championship chases Super League like Super League chases the NRL, the only difference is The Championship has closed the gap whereas the Super League is further away than it ever has been.

Over recent years the Championship has grown IMO, with the TV coverage, sponsors, attendances, competitive teams, stadium developments, club structures & finances, to the point where there is very little between the bottom 4 of Super League and the top 4 in the Championship (playing wise). im sure somebody will pick holes in this though.

SL needs to be cut, as its just not "Super" enough anymore!

So many RL fans don't like Rugby League.

[Ponterover]

If I recall correctly, that was a forum poll which would have had a far smaller number of voters than the numbers who voted in our Readers' Poll.

 

Unfortunately the two-twelves, three-eights structure will create a mentality among all clubs that they must be in the top eight come what may, and they will spend money they haven't got in order to try to get there and then remain there. It is inherently destabilising, in the same way that the old-style promotion and relegation used to be.

 

I think it will reinvigorate our game, while at the same time providing meaningful competition for those clubs who cannot make the top 8.

 

I don't think your prediction will come true.  The Cas CEO's recent comments would appear to refute your worries about clubs over reaching to get in the top 8.

 

Shall we agree to disagree?

[roughyedspud]

I thought the idea was to give this money to SL clubs as stretching that money over 14 leaves clubs short.....

 

for what you suggest it would be the same for the top 12 as it is now.........

 

 

you see,,,thats the issue imo...RUGBY LEAGUE is more than just SUPER LEAGUE...

 

this is where the RFL needs a backbone and decide to use i bit of the money to try and strengthen the game as a whole and not just the top 12 clubs!

[Martyn Sadler]

So many RL fans don't like Rugby League.

Some fans give the impression that they like the politics of Rugby League more than the game itself.

[Martyn Sadler]

I think it will reinvigorate our game, while at the same time providing meaningful competition for those clubs who cannot make the top 8.

 

I don't think your prediction will come true.  The Cas CEO's recent comments would appear to refute your worries about clubs over reaching to get in the top 8.

 

Shall we agree to disagree?

I'm happy to do that, and I'll go further.

 

It's not often that I hope to be proved wrong, but if we go down this particular route I sincerely hope that I'm wrong and you're right.

[jpmc]

Not surprising really with some of the politics that have gone on since licencing began

[yipyee]

you see,,,thats the issue imo...RUGBY LEAGUE is more than just SUPER LEAGUE...

this is where the RFL needs a backbone and decide to use i bit of the money to try and strengthen the game as a whole and not just the top 12 clubs!

its a separate discussion regarding funding, what I am pointing out is the the current money the SL gets is only enough for 12 clubs (according to the powers that be) if you shrink it to 12 but used the money saved to fund something else (doesnt matter what) then the situation hasnt changed, the number would be 12 but each club would be no better off than when there were 14 clubs....

my point is that if you wanted to impose your plan to free up SL money you would need to cut the SL to ten to have a positive impact on SL.....

[TVBOY]

Please ignor my ignorance but don't we have a governing body that is supposed to be running this sport and in my opninion should be monitoring a clubs spending? Didn't every club with SL aspirations have to submit a business plan that was scrutinised by a very high profile firm of accountants? If any club is spending more thn it's business plan states then is it not in breach of SL rules?  I can't say iiiiiiit is wrong tht the RFL should help out clubs financialy because they helped my club Leigh at one point but clubs that are knowingly overspending should be deducted points. Not years later but at the time it happens. Are they not the rules?  

[roughyedspud]

its a separate discussion regarding funding, what I am pointing out is the the current money the SL gets is only enough for 12 clubs (according to the powers that be) if you shrink it to 12 but used the money saved to fund something else (doesnt matter what) then the situation hasnt changed, the number would be 12 but each club would be no better off than when there were 14 clubs....

my point is that if you wanted to impose your plan to free up SL money you would need to cut the SL to ten to have a positive impact on SL.....

cut it to 10 then....

 

 

but im calling bull$hit on £1.2m not being enough.....its 75% of the full salary cap paid!

[Bob8]

Super League feels like it has lost its appeal at the moment anyway, gone are the days that me and all my mates where excited when Friday came round so we could all go the pub and watch the match (whoever was playing).

The Championship chases Super League like Super League chases the NRL, the only difference is The Championship has closed the gap whereas the Super League is further away than it ever has been.

Over recent years the Championship has grown IMO, with the TV coverage, sponsors, attendances, competitive teams, stadium developments, club structures & finances, to the point where there is very little between the bottom 4 of Super League and the top 4 in the Championship (playing wise). im sure somebody will pick holes in this though.

SL needs to be cut, as its just not "Super" enough anymore!

When I was younger, the summers were longer, beer was tastier and Super League was better.

 

Funny thing is that summers are longer now, I would not touchsome of the beer I drank then and the quality of rugby league has improved.  I am older though.

[roughyedspud]

got the calculator out...

 

 

general concensus is ESL raking in £26m a year...so....give £17.5m to the 10 ESL clubs @ £1.75m per year....give £8.5m to 12champ clubs @ £700k per year...

 

or £2m per year & £500k per year....

[sweaty craiq]

Unfortunately the two-twelves, three-eights structure will create a mentality among all clubs that they must be in the top eight come what may, and they will spend money they haven't got in order to try to get there and then remain there. It is inherently destabilising, in the same way that the old-style promotion and relegation used to be.

How can a business spend money it hasn't got and remain in business Martyn - isn't that why we are where we are and franchising has failed?

The laws of the real world must be implanted in the RL world asap, who are you or I to tell a club they are not worthy. That is a gross mixture of stupidity and arrogance from a defeatist with no business understanding

Competition is the lifeblood of any vibrant industry and RL has so much to sell if we make the dinosaurs extinct and focus on the wonderful product we have together with the value it will bring to our partners - I say this employing 1900 people and making £15m profits in 2013 in a business that was nearly belly up 10 years ago operating in the private sector ( sorry about the penis measuring)

We take on people 5x our size and wipe the floor with them on the bottom line, 10 years ago we were laughed at and in your mentality would have our ambitions denied, that flat cap is impacting on your vision imo

Edited January 16, 2014 by sweaty craiq

[Dave T]

Some fans give the impression that they like the politics of Rugby League more than the game itself.

I think many actually do to be honest. I think some people get so wrapped up in these things that they actually forget that what we are actually talking about is a load of blokes throwing a Rugby ball about and strangely it is one of the most addictive and enjoyable things around!

[sweaty craiq]

I think many actually do to be honest. I think some people get so wrapped up in these things that they actually forget that what we are actually talking about is a load of blokes throwing a Rugby ball about and strangely it is one of the most addictive and enjoyable things around!

Great post

[Dave T]

I'm happy to do that, and I'll go further.

 

It's not often that I hope to be proved wrong, but if we go down this particular route I sincerely hope that I'm wrong and you're right.

On your last line. I wish more people had that attitude. There are so many people that will dig their heels in and stubbornly refuse to embrace whatever decision is made.

Licensing was never given a fair go, every time there was any bit of bad news, it was due to licensing. There were so many people grumbling, turning on Super League and basically acting like the games biggest enemy and I fear the same will happen here, meaning that we will need to reshuffle the deck in a few years.

[l'angelo mysterioso]

On your last line. I wish more people had that attitude. There are so many people that will dig their heels in and stubbornly refuse to embrace whatever decision is made.

Licensing was never given a fair go, every time there was any bit of bad news, it was due to licensing. There were so many people grumbling, turning on Super League and basically acting like the games biggest enemy and I fear the same will happen here, meaning that we will need to reshuffle the deck in a few years.

Great post

[Martyn Sadler]

How can a business spend money it hasn't got and remain in business Martyn - isn't that why we are where we are and franchising has failed?

The laws of the real world must be implanted in the RL world asap, who are you or I to tell a club they are not worthy. That is a gross mixture of stupidity and arrogance from a defeatist with no business understanding

Competition is the lifeblood of any vibrant industry and RL has so much to sell if we make the dinosaurs extinct and focus on the wonderful product we have together with the value it will bring to our partners - I say this employing 1900 people and making £15m profits in 2013 in a business that was nearly belly up 10 years ago operating in the private sector ( sorry about the penis measuring)

We take on people 5x our size and wipe the floor with them on the bottom line, 10 years ago we were laughed at and in your mentality would have our ambitions denied, that flat cap is impacting on your vision imo

Many businesses spend money they haven't got and survive and perhaps even prosper in the long term.

 

It all depends on whether you have someone, whether a bank or an investor of some sort to fund the gap.

 

Amazon is a perfect example of a company that has continuously spent money it hasn't got, but has been immensely successful because financial people have been prepared to back it in anticipation of a return in the long run.

 

I'm glad to see you doing so well, and maybe you have persuaded people to back you on a slightly smaller scale, perhaps, than Amazon.

 

And there wouldn't be a problem if there were investors on that scale queuing up to invest in Rugby League clubs. Sadly, there aren't.

 

Add to that, the fact that Rugby League is not a conventional business.

 

In a sense it is what economists call a zero-sum game, whereby those who succeed only do so because others fail. If every club borrows money to try to win a Grand Final, only one can be successful.

 

So in the absence of willing investors, we need a structure that protects clubs from themselves.

 

That has absolutely nothing to do with some clubs being not worthy, as you put it.

[gingerjon]

On your last line. I wish more people had that attitude. There are so many people that will dig their heels in and stubbornly refuse to embrace whatever decision is made.

Licensing was never given a fair go, every time there was any bit of bad news, it was due to licensing. There were so many people grumbling, turning on Super League and basically acting like the games biggest enemy and I fear the same will happen here, meaning that we will need to reshuffle the deck in a few years.

 

To be fair this is a rugby league discussion forum.  The people on it, especially in the off season, are by the nature of the fact that they're on here going to be interested in the politics of rugby league to a level that will leave normal people with a healthy relationship to reality aghast.

[Dave T]

To be fair this is a rugby league discussion forum.  The people on it, especially in the off season, are by the nature of the fact that they're on here going to be interested in the politics of rugby league to a level that will leave normal people with a healthy relationship to reality aghast.

I'm not sure you quoted my correct post for the response you gave, but yes I do agree with you.

I really enjoy the business side of the sport and will happily engage in debate on this, and I am certainly not criticising people for that, but there are a lot of fans who seem to dislike the actual sport, never engage in any RL discussion and just seem pretty bloody miserable in general!

 

I really miss the World Cup as the amount of positivity and love shown for the game was on a level I have possibly never seen.

[sweaty craiq]

Many businesses spend money they haven't got and survive and perhaps even prosper in the long term.

It all depends on whether you have someone, whether a bank or an investor of some sort to fund the gap.

Amazon is a perfect example of a company that has continuously spent money it hasn't got, but has been immensely successful because financial people have been prepared to back it in anticipation of a return in the long run.

I'm glad to see you doing so well, and maybe you have persuaded people to back you on a slightly smaller scale, perhaps, than Amazon.

And there wouldn't be a problem if there were investors on that scale queuing up to invest in Rugby League clubs. Sadly, there aren't.

Add to that, the fact that Rugby League is not a conventional business.

In a sense it is what economists call a zero-sum game, whereby those who succeed only do so because others fail. If every club borrows money to try to win a Grand Final, only one can be successful.

So in the absence of willing investors, we need a structure that protects clubs from themselves.

That has absolutely nothing to do with some clubs being not worthy, as you put it.

Martyn, what is amazons turnover compared to RL? Would Amazon have any investors if they didn't have a clear path to market? Do amazons investors have the same objectives as those in sport- I do not know one person who is looking for a return from a private sports club, the motivation is different and understanding that may help you assist in taking our game forward from your privileged position

I operate on a smaller scale than Amazon, we don't spend what we don't have, we understand our market/opportunities and sell on value to our strengths, we grow through profits and reinvestment as the bankers reputation has been rightly earned during the recent years

At some point my assetts may be capitalised, at that point I may want to put tens of millions into my club to leave a legacy after I become maggot food, I wouldn't do that with the structures in place now or proposed. I don't want guarantees because life doesn't work that way but I want to know that if I achieved results the progression is guaranteed and immediate - your proposal disenfranchises the people who can move our sport forward, let clubs find their level at that moment in time and ensure they can live the dream in the future

RL clubs are not global brands, they are the sum total of local passion. If we want brands then we create 10 new clubs in 10 catchment areas across the UK and throw all the tv money at them and take the gamble, wasn't that the dream in 1994? The ones who will support this are the so called RL evangelists and the clubs who are one of the ten, maybe the short term pain will be worth it but will Warrington fans watch the Mersey saints at langtree park? That is now one desperate roll of the dice we do not need to make IMO but that is where you logic ends up

Edited January 16, 2014 by sweaty craiq

[Dave T]

Banks certainly expect a return.

[Exiled Wiganer]

Banks certainly expect a return.

 

That works on so many levels. If it was meant as a multi layered joke, it worked for me!