The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Padge]

You do remember that one of the promoted clubs from the failed p and r system topped the SL last season and another made the top eight.

 

And Broughton Rangers were once a great side, maybe we should put to one side a slice of TV money to buy some resuscitation kit to see if we can revive them.

 

You really really still don't get it do you.

[Tonka]

Who will the 24 clubs be?

[John Drake]

I'm just a fan of RL, I like the community based aspect to it and now that I'm living so far beyond it, I miss it.

 

However, I didn't really appreciate the politics, even though I am a born and bred league fan.

 

League Express as a format was always my bible but with this topic, the agenda's are too obvious and too leading. I have accepted all previous structures to the game, all previous opinions, I've kept going and even brought my kids to the game with a 160 mile round trip. 

 

However, I object to censorship, censorship that is too sensitive. If the Editor of LE has to be protected when he comes on here frothing his opinion and baiting Fev fans so readily, then you are welcome to him. I accept that this forum has to be paid for but I would prefer to pay than be led by the nose, or cut from the debate because I think the rhetoric is beyond editorial licence.

 

I'm not sure what you're on about here regarding censorship.

 

The only posts that have been edited or removed (by me) have been either offensive, trolling or off topic.

 

I wouldn't remove posts criticising League Express or its editor, not least because the editor is reading this thread and would want to have the opportunity to respond to them himself. He certainly doesn't need or want protecting by me.

 

If you have a specific gripe about something that's been removed (and we don't actually delete anything, it's just hidden from public view, so we can refer back to it if necessary) then please PM me with the details or, even at the risk of disrupting this thread, post them here, as accusations of censorship are taken very seriously indeed when we try so hard to avoid any such thing.

 

Thank you.

[Saintslass]

Who will the 24 clubs be?

The 12 clubs of the Superleague and the 12 clubs of the Championship.

 

Championship 1 is going to be pretty unwieldy by the sounds of things but not much has been said about that league so far.

[Saintslass]

which is proof licensing works???

Personally, I think licensing has worked in one respect: it has given the opportunity for young players to be brought into first teams throughout the league in a number that would not have been seen had promotion and relegation been retained.  Three years is a great spell to know that you're safe and can take risks with young players. 

 

The whole of the licensing project would have worked far better had it actually been implemented as originally stated (or as reported as being stated anyway!).  But it never was.

[THE RED ROOSTER]

London should have given their vote to Barnet FC.

 

That actually is a fair point as there is a great deal of difference in the gate receipts Barnet FC will get between visits from Wigan and Halifax.  My views are known but a deal is a deal and one hopes Messrs Hughes and Mackay did not vote in favour of the reduction to 12 and 8/8/8 as they did without informing Mr Kleanthous that this was their intention.

 

For me this is the nub of it. I have been a fan of RL for 23 years, and as a southerner watched with great interest the creation of SL. It had such promise. Yet this promise, one of a pan European competition with such stellar names as PSG (who had wonderful promise - and yes, they did- I lived in Paris at the time and can vouch for the attention they attracted - they were simply managed poorly) and the hope for a greater footprint in the UK, has not been actualised. Instead, the sport has, if anything, regressed in terms of print profile, sponsorship, innovation, and certainly a southern awareness (another bugbear of mine - people making assumptions about how much RL is known down south - it is simply virtually non-existent in the lives and day to day experience of many here). Admittedly,the sport has 'regressed' in many respects because of the manner in which football and RU have improved their standing within broader UK culture in this time period. Nevertheless, what we are being left with is a sport that is becoming increasingly marginalized, and unfortunately, more culturally located than ever in certain northern communities. And please, do not remind me of the growth of the community game in the south. I could just as easily quote other sports, largely considered to be non mainstream ones, that have high participation levels in the south and yet still do not register in terms of national consciousness. Actually, I will give a couple of examples: American football and handball. So in sum, the sport of RL seems to be regressing. And a particularly harsh or cynical view of this might put forward the idea that it could end up abou as culturally relevant in this country as an emerging sport such as handball. And this possible regression is put quite succinctly in thequote I have

To be fair, it has been done it in a better way than I have, and I am aware of this. I guess as a fan of the game for 23 years, and one who has started to feel that it would be more worthwhile to follow another sport (remember what I said about how little relevance the sport has in the datherner down south?), I just wanted to vent some steam. Particularly as a fan of the Broncos. And what a lovely off-season we've had.

 

This +1

 

I'm just a fan of RL, I like the community based aspect to it and now that I'm living so far beyond it, I miss it.

 

However, I didn't really appreciate the politics, even though I am a born and bred league fan.

 

League Express as a format was always my bible but with this topic, the agenda's are too obvious and too leading. I have accepted all previous structures to the game, all previous opinions, I've kept going and even brought my kids to the game with a 160 mile round trip. 

 

However, I object to censorship, censorship that is too sensitive. If the Editor of LE has to be protected when he comes on here frothing his opinion and baiting Fev fans so readily, then you are welcome to him. I accept that this forum has to be paid for but I would prefer to pay than be led by the nose, or cut from the debate because I think the rhetoric is beyond editorial licence.

 

I think you will find that RLE is quite a broad church in respect of the Rugby League views that appear in print and in the ether, I am unimpressed with the expressed views of two of the RLE staffers who hold views closer to yours and of course you have Garry "Pulling No Punches" each week.in RLE. However we live in a democracy and they and Mr Sadler are entitled to their opinions and to express their views  on this forum or elsewhere. For is not any sport a game of opinions.

[Methven Hornet]

The 12 clubs of the Superleague and the 12 clubs of the Championship.

 

Championship 1 is going to be pretty unwieldy by the sounds of things but not much has been said about that league so far.

 

Wasn't there some mention of a regional component to Championship 1? (or some such wording)

I don't think there was an awful lot of attention given to the subject in the proposals document, tbh.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

One of the interesting things I've read in the policy review document is that the salary cap for Championship will be 900k. It will be interesting to see how the middle 8 goes with half the clubs operating on a salary cap of 1.8 million and the other half on 900k...

 

Also, it seems any club-trained player will have a salary cap limit of 100k (40k in Championship). So presumably the clubs will be able to pay them over and above this figure without it counting towards the salary cap.

[yipyee]

Wasn't there some mention of a regional component to Championship 1? (or some such wording)

I don't think there was an awful lot of attention given to the subject in the proposals document, tbh.

thats nice. ...fully inclusive structure it's supposed to be isn't it? ?

[Lobbygobbler]

if that were true the broncos would have at least 1 sponsor!!!

Why? The capital challenge is a Skolars initiative with naff all to do with the Broncos

[The Parksider]

im pretty sure rovers posted a profit last year

 

Hi Daz,

 

Martyn said "For the year ending 30 November 2012 Featherstone Rovers show current assets of £137,400 and current liabilities of £453,308, while they also have long term liabilities of £531,162".

 

I don't think there is any question of any profits mate......

[BBR]

All those who slate expansion are basing it on a short term view. Many would say all golds have failed with their crowds under 100. If they can hang around long enough and their schools programme works then they may eventually be a serious team. 15 years or so. I have seen the attitude towards rugby league in Gloucester change in schools already. Yet the flat cap brigade will deem it a failure unless Gloucester ru have changed codes within 2 years. Stop meddling with the structure. Support expansion. Enjoy the sport. Stop bloody moaning

[The Parksider]

You do remember that one of the promoted clubs from the failed p and r system topped the SL last season..

 

Good evening America.

 

I don't think you have got the point yet.

 

When a club has a very rich man spending £Millions in a game lacking money he can take them anywhere.

 

To say P & R was responsible for Huddersfield's success, and ignore the reality that it was approximately a £10,000,000 gift from Davey wot did it, really does miss the point big time.

[roughyedspud]

here a idea to make the top8 split not a waste of time..

the super 8 playoffs..

the top8 are seeded into 2 groups (1,3,5,7 & 2,4,6,

played on a home & away basis...

league points are not carried over

winner of each group advances to the grand final..

[keighley]

Well I don't know about that, didn't Mr. Hudgell have to put a lot of money in as well as SOC. Do those sums appear as directors loans on the balance sheet??

The Featherstone Rovers balance sheet shows a big overspend. To me it seems the RFL are trying to release clubs from having to chase the big Superleague clubs.

We did get Mr Hudgell complaining about how much he had to put in every year to stand still so I don't see any building on solid ground IMVHO.

Well I don't know about that, didn't Mr. Hudgell have to put a lot of money in as well as SOC. Do those sums appear as directors loans on the balance sheet??

The Featherstone Rovers balance sheet shows a big overspend. To me it seems the RFL are trying to release clubs from having to chase the big Superleague clubs.

We did get Mr Hudgell complaining about how much he had to put in every year to stand still so I don't see any building on solid ground IMVHO.

As I recall, Mr Hudgell entered the Hull KR picture when they were in CC1 on sub 2,000 crowds. Craven park was dire, the pitch was a bog, the ends were empty and administration was only just exited.

Today they are in SL, have replaced the pitch, built a brand new end stand and draw north of 7,000 and have a junior set up. This last season they made the eight. Yes, Mr Hudgell has reservations about his continuing investment but standing still does not seem to be where Hull KR are at given their CC1 start. Compared to the quagmire they were drowning in, I think the ground now is nicely solidifying beneath them. If they continue their progress they might just kick Hull FC out of the eight next season.

[The Parksider]

Firstly apoligies if I have caused any offence with that analogy, but Bradford do give that impression, I have been watching this game since 1961and Bradford in Trouble is a most definate recurring theme.

 

Good evening Gary,

 

Bradford Northern got into mega trouble in the early sixties. Their crowds hit an all time low of 323 late 1963.

However reformation led to an opening of Bradford Northern (1964) Ltd before 13,542.

 

I don't know where you get the "recurring theme" thing from. Bradford only slipped up once after that missing the cut for the new first division in 1973. However that year they were challenge cup finalists.

 

1974 they bounced straight back winning 24 of 26 matches, and since then they have always been in the top league and always been very well supported with peak support being 15,700.

 

Now it seems they are "In trouble" yet their 8,575 crowd from last year still makes them the sixth most attractive side in the Rugby Football League.

 

I hope I have dispelled that myth for you Gary.............

[keighley]

To be fair they went into the Superleague on merit last time, by winning the Championship 1 and Championship leagues as they progressed upward.

No they didn't. They lost to Salford in the Championship grand final and both went in on a licence. I think it was when they expanded SL to 14 maybe.

[The Parksider]

As I recall, Mr Hudgell entered the Hull KR picture when they were in CC1 on sub 2,000 crowds. Today they are in SL,

 

Thanks to Mr. Hudgell gifting them £500,000 a year, but last year he said he could not go on doing this.

 

Let's take it to the extreme. Lets say Keighley found someone to give them £3,000,000 a year for 15 years.

 

And as a result of this they won the hub cap.

 

Would you then put this success down to Promotion and Relegation?

[keighley]

which is proof licensing works???

No. it's proof that p and r works. The last two given licences before Widnes were Salford and Crusaders !!!

[Padge]

As I recall, Mr Hudgell entered the Hull KR picture when they were in CC1 on sub 2,000 crowds. Craven park was dire, the pitch was a bog, the ends were empty and administration was only just exited.

Today they are in SL, have replaced the pitch, built a brand new end stand and draw north of 7,000 and have a junior set up. This last season they made the eight. Yes, Mr Hudgell has reservations about his continuing investment but standing still does not seem to be where Hull KR are at given their CC1 start. Compared to the quagmire they were drowning in, I think the ground now is nicely solidifying beneath them. If they continue their progress they might just kick Hull FC out of the eight next season.

Because he had to invest in facilities and not just players.

 

You really, really do not get it.

[keighley]

And Broughton Rangers were once a great side, maybe we should put to one side a slice of TV money to buy some resuscitation kit to see if we can revive them.

 

You really really still don't get it do you.

Broughton Rangers closed down as Belle Vue Rangers in the 1950's. Huddersfield were promoted since 1998 and now top the league. Hull KR were promoted after Huddersfield and made the eight. No, I don't get it and I have no idea what Broughton Rangers have to do with p and r from the Championship to SL since 1998, which wasn't a failure IMVHO as some say.

[Tonka]

Seems a bit harsh to cut out the Champ 1 clubs.  Can they get promoted?

[Padge]

Broughton Rangers closed down as Belle Vue Rangers in the 1950's. Huddersfield were promoted since 1998 and now top the league. Hull KR were promoted after Huddersfield and made the eight. No, I don't get it and I have no idea what Broughton Rangers have to do with p and r from the Championship to SL since 1998, which wasn't a failure IMVHO as some say.

 

That post confirms that you don't get it.

[Lounge Room Lizard]

I support expansion but it has to be done properly and things done slowly building a foundation to work off. Its pure stupidity and madness throwing a club in SL within a couple of years and hoping it will work. For me expansion has to be done via a development officer(s) going into schools and working to strengthen or form amateur clubs within an area. Once you have that foundation then you can start looking at a pro club within the area that the foundation can support. Anybody that has worked with the development of the game knows how tough it is just at amateur level. Doing it at Pro level is even harder requiring extra money, extra effort and the need to see some success for the money and effort invested. Short term thinking and hoping things work is not the way to do things, especially running a Pro Sports Club. I would rather see clubs like Hemel Stags take many years to build something and become part of the community and be a success at a level they are comfortable. A club like London or Crusaders MK 1 playing and operating in SL when clearly they are not fit on and off the field at that level does the club nor the game any good for me. Expansion takes time and you cant cut corners if you want it to succeed. 

 

People are saying we have 8 clubs that are good for SL and can operate at that level. Sorry but we have one maybe 2 that can do that the rest rely on moneymen to help them at the higher level. Take the likes of Mcmanus, Moran, Koukash, Davy away at the clubs will soon be in big trouble and be not much if at all than the likes of Cas, Widnes, HKR. As I said the 8 x 3 concept addresses no issues that need sorting. The poor management of clubs will still continue and clubs will keep thinking short term and cut corners instead of looking long term. I have no confidence in either the RFL or the Clubs as both sides keep making dumb decisions which do nothing to help the game long term.

[jpmc]

They both went up but assuming it was purely based on tables, as they were both finalists in 2007 they both would have gone up anyway. (Based on the fact two teams were going up)

Crusaders at that time aren't a good example of good business,they broke every rule in the book to try and get were they and the rfl wanted them to be.

Werent they the scorpions at that time?

Edited January 18, 2014 by jpmc