The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[The Parksider]

That is why the proposed funding to the second tiers top clubs is key. They must be FT, and must run on the max cap (£900k?) that way if a club takes the gamble to save money they will end up in the second tier. I expect 6 full time clubs in the second tier in 2015

 

I'd agree with you, but I fear a £900K second eight squad will be so much weaker than a Elite SL £1.65M squad. The middle eight may work as a competition but breaking the big eight may be nigh on impossible.

 

Here's Mark Aston the legend.......

 

"At least they have made a decision, It remains to be see if it does mean promotion and relegation - I actually don't believe that"

 

If the funding is not right it means a 8 club Suprleague and a two tier championship. Mark Continues:-

 

"It depends on how the money is shared out if one team has double that of another then you would still surmise that the teams getting the most would win"

 

The Swiss model was used by Martyn as a warning, what was not AFAIK reported about this model was whether there was a huge financial gap between the top Swiss football clubs and the rest. If there wasn't then the warning from their experience may be stronger. Anyway....Mark again..

 

"At the moment the part timers  are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

 

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

 

The argument is not about format at all IMVHO it's about, as Padge always says "money".

Edited January 22, 2014 by The Parksider

[bobbruce]

I have not read Garry schofields view anywhere on this. I recently watched a few YouTube bits and pieces that he was giving his views and I thought he made a lot of sense.

Thanks gary

[bamfordsbeans]

Mark Aston seems to be viewing this from his own clubs perspective.In the present system clubs like Sheffield and Batley punch above their weight- but I expect them now to struggle to keep up with the likes of Featherstone,Leigh and Halifax.

[a.n Other]

I'd agree with you, but I fear a £900K second eight squad will be so much weaker than a Elite SL £1.65M squad. The middle eight may work as a competition but breaking the big eight may be nigh on impossible.

Here's Mark Aston the legend.......

"At least they have made a decision, It remains to be see if it does mean promotion and relegation - I actually don't believe that"

If the funding is not right it means a 8 club Suprleague and a two tier championship. Mark Continues:-

"It depends on how the money is shared out if one team has double that of another then you would still surmise that the teams getting the most would win"

The Swiss model was used by Martyn as a warning, what was not AFAIK reported about this model was whether there was a huge financial gap between the top Swiss football clubs and the rest. If there wasn't then the warning from their experience may be stronger. Anyway....Mark again..

"At the moment the part timers are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

The argument is not about format at all IMVHO it's about, as Padge always says "money".

The Halifax chairman has a different outlook towards the change. He has said

"It’s what we wanted; we believe it provides the game with a platform from which to move forward,” and “You could have a bad year this year and still be able to move forward, but it will be a lot easier to progress and get ready for 2015 if you are successful this season.”

People from the same division having a different out look with regards to the changes. It may be Aston is against it as his club has shown they have been the best for the past couple of years with a very small salary cap. These changes could impact that.

[thundergaz]

The Cas chief executive was ecstatic "The whole game will be better, I don't think it will ever change back" he said "There might be doubts now but in five or six years time people will realise it's a brilliant decision"

Brilliant as you say for a poor SL side who needs to reduce their spending, and will probably be very happy staying alive in the middle eight with several derbies against Wakey and Bradford.

Steve is excited about the Championship clubs "Like Featherstone and Sheffield Eagles" who he is likely to welcome to the jungle soon. He also says "this will create more competition".

I fully understand his position on this, for a financially stretched club fed up with their inability to compete in Superleague for so many years now creating a "who cares" attitude at the club, they will now be able to compete a step down.

A you say Gaz a win win for poorer Superleague clubs, however the flip side is how will they go on in the first 23 rounds if they re-adjust their Salary spending down to "A Mil(lion) pounds" as you suggest and become even less competitive in SL against the top eight???

The poorer SL clubs know they can't make the eight parky. They won't be too bothered about becoming less competetive their main aim IMO will just be to avoid the drop and spend within their means. If a champ club tries to sign a sinfield etc the poor SL club could see that as a threat to their top tier status so with them only spending x amount on their cap the extra will help them kill any threat from a champ club too. Like I say parky I think this system suits the poorer SL clubs more than any other clubs.

[sweaty craiq]

I'd agree with you, but I fear a £900K second eight squad will be so much weaker than a Elite SL £1.65M squad. The middle eight may work as a competition but breaking the big eight may be nigh on impossible.

Here's Mark Aston the legend.......

"At least they have made a decision, It remains to be see if it does mean promotion and relegation - I actually don't believe that"

If the funding is not right it means a 8 club Suprleague and a two tier championship. Mark Continues:-

"It depends on how the money is shared out if one team has double that of another then you would still surmise that the teams getting the most would win"

The Swiss model was used by Martyn as a warning, what was not AFAIK reported about this model was whether there was a huge financial gap between the top Swiss football clubs and the rest. If there wasn't then the warning from their experience may be stronger. Anyway....Mark again..

"At the moment the part timers are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

The argument is not about format at all IMVHO it's about, as Padge always says "money".

Yes it is about money, but not just what we have but what more we can attract

Currently club A has no guaranteed path to SL, is difficult to market to fans and investors/philanthropists - this new system gives hope to fans and a guarantee of promotion to the latter for a sum under £1m subject to on field performance, that is now a realistic objective imo because what's a million to a wealthy man/woman or a group of such

As a result cash will come into the game the second tier becomes a flowing river and not the stagnant pond it is now

I can't see Fev having a problem finding that sum, Leigh won't and I believe fax also

Aston knows Sheffield are a big fish in a tiny pond and haven't the fan base to go further, they have probably maxed grants and education funding to keep all the overseas at the club so this is as good as it gets playing out of a ploughed field with fans behind a glass screen

[the phoenix]

"At the moment the part timers  are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

 

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

 

dont quite follow the logic , currently part timers struggle anyway but the new cash proposals will help 4/5 teams to go full time where as at the moment the cash difference is massive 
how does the the new proposals "not signal the chance for clubs to get promoted" - the chance is quite obviously there , finish in the top four of the championship then finish in the top 3 of the mini league or get 4th/5th and beat a team in a one off and you are there , 

it may seem to suit the top 8 but not all of them voted in favour did they , agreed some of the struggling clubs may see it as a way off stepping down but bradford arent exactly rejoicing at the prospect are they 

and the season after why should they be taking hammerings , after all they will be on the same funding as the other clubs 

sorry but Messrs Sadler and Ashton are talking rubbish

[Auntie Linzi Morris]

Is there a potential problem with the existing player contracts?

 

I believe there are, usually, Standard Clauses in there relating to a player being able to move to another Super League club (or even be released by a club) should they not be in Super League/the highest tier.

 

So when teams finish ninth to twelth after Round 23 and drop to Tier 2, will all their players be available for 'free'?

 

The above is not a statement of fact, I was just wondering?!

[a.n Other]

Is there a potential problem with the existing player contracts?

I believe there are, usually, Standard Clauses in there relating to a player being able to move to another Super League club (or even be released by a club) should they not be in Super League/the highest tier.

So when teams finish ninth to twelth after Round 23 and drop to Tier 2, will all their players be available for 'free'?

The above is not a statement of fact, I was just wondering?!

The split wouldn't change the funding the club gets for that season so it shouldn't affect the contract. If they don't qualify for SL this may have an impact for the following season.

[Scubby]

My worry is that regular SL fixtures for a club like Wigan against the likes of Castleford, Wakefield (say these clubs yo yo for a couple of seasons) in time may be viewed as games against lower division opposition - the team they put out and the variation in home crowds for those fixtures may also start to reflect this.

[GaryO]

With a bit of luck, we'll be nowhere near the middle 8 next season, or the one after that.   After that, the structure will change back to something simpler so it won't matter anyway.

 

Steve, sorry to see that your "greymatter" will not extend to the complex intricacies that this new structure will demand and you require something similar, i.e. keeping mediocrity.

 

Can't sat that I blame you really, if I was a supporter of a team that had just won it's first trophy since France surrendered, I wouldn't want to change the goal posts either, although I would always look for improvement.  

 

How is it that most SL Chairmen are commenting (and especially the one's from the expected top eight, read E McManus. #4100) at the positives that can be extracted from this new process which will far outweigh the negatives, funnily enough don't recall seeing anything from Mr. K Davy.

 

We will always have the opinions of the one's who are aggrieved by the result of any committee jurisdiction, we have the usual suspects that have been "spinning" for the against - A'La Parky - for a while now who claim that these comments are PR Hogwash, but they have to say don't they, to substantiate their debate of the last few months, and worst of all we have the "I don't agree,so I hope it fails" the category which quite obviously you are a member of.

 

There comes a time in life when there is discord in any family, but the one's that pull through are the one's that stick together whatever their view, we have got what we have got, grasp the positives, let go of the negatives, this can work for everyone, give it a chance and get behind it.     

[robinson2]

Although dead against the new system (though not a league of 12), I would hope that rugby league fans on the mainland do not use it as a stick to beat the sport with and a ready-made excuse to boycott games. I would love a team in Belfast and/or the money to go to live games. We miss that culture here and neither union nor ice hockey grab my interest.

Vive le treize!

[Steve May]

Steve, sorry to see that your "greymatter" will not extend to the complex intricacies that this new structure will demand and you require something similar, i.e. keeping mediocrity.

 

Whatever.

 

By the end of 2015 most of the people who think this is a brilliant idea will be whinging about it and wanting it to change.  

 

As a general rule in life, if something looks like a magic bullet that will fix all your problems, then it's a load of ######.

 

 

Two years.  Max.

[thundergaz]

Whatever.

By the end of 2015 most of the people who think this is a brilliant idea will be whinging about it and wanting it to change.

As a general rule in life, if something looks like a magic bullet that will fix all your problems, then it's a load of ######.

Two years. Max.

It will last as long as licensing did it as to for it stand any chance of working. No one expects it to work straight away. It takes time for anything to work to its full potential. (I'm not a fan of the system either) But I am of P&R and I think this system is a safer way to introduce P&R than the old yo yo system.

[Steve May]

worst of all we have the "I don't agree,so I hope it fails" the category which quite obviously you are a member of.

 

There comes a time in life when there is discord in any family, but the one's that pull through are the one's that stick together whatever their view, we have got what we have got, grasp the positives, let go of the negatives, this can work for everyone, give it a chance and get behind it.     

 

 

Long ago I realised that noone was ever going to take international RL seriously in this country so I walked away from it.    I watched a few World Cup matches, and enjoyed them, but I noticed that England finished third out of three again and then rehashed the same old excuses.  Same old story.  Seen it all before.

 

Recently I've moved towards a similar attitude to the club game.  It really is run by morons who don't have enough collective "grey matter" to fill a paper bag let alone think their way out of it.    I have a few remaining vestiges of interest beyond the Giants (Batley, Skolars, Oldham), but I'm pretty close to the point where I genuinely don't give a stuff about 99% of rugby league.

 

I don't hope this structure fails.  I think it's an obviously stupid idea, but I couldn't give a stuff if it fails or succeeds.   I'm past caring.   I think that the club I support will be well out of it anyway so it won't much affect me.  If it does, I'll pick and choose my matches and watch them if it seems fun.

 

There comes a time in life when you have to admit that some, possibly a lot, of your family might actually be idiots.  You still love them, but you stop taking their advice or listening to them an substantive points.    That's where I am with RL.

[The Parksider]

The poorer SL clubs know they can't make the eight parky. They won't be too bothered about becoming less competetive their main aim IMO will just be to avoid the drop and spend within their means. If a champ club tries to sign a sinfield etc the poor SL club could see that as a threat to their top tier status so with them only spending x amount on their cap the extra will help them kill any threat from a champ club too. Like I say parky I think this system suits the poorer SL clubs more than any other clubs.

 

I personally agree entirely with that analysis.

 

So the new format although merely a way to reduce debt and downsize clubs, will also throw up a tremendously interesting financial battle in the middle eight??

 

Who will shy away from spending and reduce their debts, who will increase spending, how much will Nahaboo inject? Do they really have money at Halifax?? Will London ground to a halt??

 

Such an exciting time is to come with the new format which people will state is all to do with "what happens on the pitch", but the failure or success of any club will remain IMVHO in the accountants office, where they are currently awaiting the far more important meeting/decision than last weeks i.e. the funding decision.

 

Once the clubs have re-jigged financially will the format then become as sterile as any.........

[The Parksider]

 

Dont quite follow the logic , currently part timers struggle anyway but the new cash proposals will help 4/5 teams to go full time where as at the moment the cash difference is massive. And the season after why should )SL clubs returning to SL) be taking hammerings , after all they will be on the same funding as the other clubs 

Sorry but Messrs Sadler and Ashton are talking rubbish

 

 

Yes of course part timers struggle, but it's a leap of faith for you to suggest 4/5 clubs will go "full time" under the proposals.

 

It's the definition of full time. What is the difference between a full time SL club with a £1,650,000 salary cap spend backed by an RFL approved academy........and a part time club spending another £600K on wages in a players market that is very thin, attempting to become full time, who have no effective academy?

 

The difference is the part time turned full time club will be spending 45% less than Superleague clubs.That's where one professional club can be spending nigh on twice as much as another.

 

If Castleford decide to trim say a £1,200,000 salary spend down to £900K and dump their academy next year, then of course they can look forward to at least ending the season in better financial shape and they can look forward to competing against their middle eight colleagues. But how are they going to avoid hammerings from top SL clubs with another three quality players gone from their squad.

 

I can't understand your logic that full time = even competition because Superleague's main problem is exactly that, that is not the case.......

[Griff]

Is there a potential problem with the existing player contracts?

 

I believe there are, usually, Standard Clauses in there relating to a player being able to move to another Super League club (or even be released by a club) should they not be in Super League/the highest tier.

 

So when teams finish ninth to twelth after Round 23 and drop to Tier 2, will all their players be available for 'free'?

 

The above is not a statement of fact, I was just wondering?!

 

Contracts end on 30 November so, unless that changes - which seems unlikely - no problem here.

[thundergaz]

I personally agree entirely with that analysis.

So the new format although merely a way to reduce debt and downsize clubs, will also throw up a tremendously interesting financial battle in the middle eight??

Who will shy away from spending and reduce their debts, who will increase spending, how much will Nahaboo inject? Do they really have money at Halifax?? Will London ground to a halt??

Such an exciting time is to come with the new format which people will state is all to do with "what happens on the pitch", but the failure or success of any club will remain IMVHO in the accountants office, where they are currently awaiting the far more important meeting/decision than last weeks i.e. the funding decision.

Once the clubs have re-jigged financially will the format then become as sterile as any.........

I agree parky. But I do think with this system you will get your way and the strongest 12 financially clubs will end up permanently in the big 12. You wanted a strong top tier I think this system will eventually give you that parky. The cap is the main stumbling block for champ clubs but if they do get into the top tier the clubs with the most finances will definately stay their no doubt about that. This system will tell us is Fev really financially better and a better run club than say wakey and is Leigh financially better than Widnes and better run. You get the point. This system will put all that to the rest. Edited January 22, 2014 by thundergaz

[The Parksider]

Yes it is about money, but not just what we have but what more we can attract

Currently club A has no guaranteed path to SL, is difficult to market to fans and investors/philanthropists - this new system gives hope to fans and a guarantee of promotion to the latter for a sum under £1m subject to on field performance, that is now a realistic objective imo because what's a million to a wealthy man/woman or a group of such

As a result cash will come into the game the second tier becomes a flowing river and not the stagnant pond it is now

I can't see Fev having a problem finding that sum, Leigh won't and I believe fax also

Aston knows Sheffield are a big fish in a tiny pond and haven't the fan base to go further, they have probably maxed grants and education funding to keep all the overseas at the club so this is as good as it gets playing out of a ploughed field with fans behind a glass screen

 

I agree parky. But I do think with this system you will get your way and the strongest 12 financially clubs will end up permanently in the big 12. You wanted a strong top tier I think this system will eventually give you that parky. The cap is the main stumbling block for champ clubs but if they do get into the top tier the clubs with the most finances will definately stay their no doubt about that. This system will tell us is Fev really financially better and a better run club than say wakey and is Leigh financially better than Widnes and better run. You get the point. This system will put all that to the rest.

 

Tremendous posts, I take the points entirely.

 

Just have a problem that the gap between 1-8 and 9-12 may well leave us with an eight club SL.

 

Craiq suggests cash "will come into the game the second tier becomes a flowing river and not the stagnant pond it is now" .

 

I have a problem with that wishful thinking, but we can live in hope??

Edited January 22, 2014 by The Parksider

[Griff]

 

"At the moment the part timers  are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

 

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

 

dont quite follow the logic , currently part timers struggle anyway but the new cash proposals will help 4/5 teams to go full time where as at the moment the cash difference is massive 

how does the the new proposals "not signal the chance for clubs to get promoted" - the chance is quite obviously there , finish in the top four of the championship then finish in the top 3 of the mini league or get 4th/5th and beat a team in a one off and you are there , 

it may seem to suit the top 8 but not all of them voted in favour did they , agreed some of the struggling clubs may see it as a way off stepping down but bradford arent exactly rejoicing at the prospect are they 

and the season after why should they be taking hammerings , after all they will be on the same funding as the other clubs 

sorry but Messrs Sadler and Ashton are talking rubbish

 

 

Not sure who this Ashton bloke is or what he's said but it's disingenuous to assume that clubs starting in the Second Twelve will be able to attract quality playing staff.  Players will always have a preference for playing in the Top Twelve - not least because that will comprise three quarters of the season.  Sure, funding's an important issue but in the Second Twelve - if you get any ex-$uperleague players at all - you're likely to get the odd mercenary looking for an easy life and a fat pay packet and players who reckon that they can't quite hack it against the rest of the Top Twelve.

 

It's not quite all about money - it's about the "horseflesh" you can buy with it.

[The Parksider]

The Halifax chairman has a different outlook towards the change. He has said

"It’s what we wanted; we believe it provides the game with a platform from which to move forward,” and “You could have a bad year this year and still be able to move forward, but it will be a lot easier to progress and get ready for 2015 if you are successful this season.”

People from the same division having a different out look with regards to the changes. It may be Aston is against it as his club has shown they have been the best for the past couple of years with a very small salary cap. These changes could impact that.

 

Thanks for that view

[The Parksider]

How is it that most SL Chairmen are commenting (and especially the one's from the expected top eight, read E McManus. #4100) at the positives that can be extracted from this new process which will far outweigh the negatives

 

Because they have agreed as Martyn Sadler outlined to drop their public differences for the time being for a show of public unity whilst the season tickets are on sale an TV are interested in upping the contract.

 

Chairmen from top eight clubs Davey, Moran. Lennigan, Pearson and Hudgell actually did not want this. They wanted a 12 club Superleague with a half shut door of a P & R play off every two years. They still do not want the change but will accept it for control of Superleague. They can still scupper things.

 

I note Terry likes your post but I would implore both of you to read Mr. Sadlers "behind the Public Relations" reality of the situation in his Monday editorial.

 

Favorable announcements from chairmen smiling through gritted teeth, because they don't believe a word of what they are saying but have to say it don't mean anything against the reality of their actual stance.

Edited January 22, 2014 by The Parksider

[thundergaz]

Tremendous posts, I take the points entirely.

Just have a problem that the gap between 1-8 and 9-12 may well leave us with an eight club SL.

Craiq suggests cash "will come into the game the second tier becomes a flowing river and not the stagnant pond it is now" .

I have a problem with that wishful thinking, but we can live in hope??

I think you are right to a certain extent parky. I think we will have an 8 club SL until the dust settles and we have the best 4 clubs out of the middle 8 cementing their position in the top flight. But I really do believe once the crash bang wallop as happened between those clubs we will eventually have the strongest SL we have ever had. That's just my opinion of course but the best run and best financial clubs will make up the last four in the top tier I'm confident that will eventually happen therefore presenting us with a proper elite comp.

[GaryO]

Long ago I realised that noone was ever going to take international RL seriously in this country so I walked away from it.    I watched a few World Cup matches, and enjoyed them, but I noticed that England finished third out of three again and then rehashed the same old excuses.  Same old story.  Seen it all before.

 

Recently I've moved towards a similar attitude to the club game.  It really is run by morons who don't have enough collective "grey matter" to fill a paper bag let alone think their way out of it.    I have a few remaining vestiges of interest beyond the Giants (Batley, Skolars, Oldham), but I'm pretty close to the point where I genuinely don't give a stuff about 99% of rugby league.

 

I don't hope this structure fails.  I think it's an obviously stupid idea, but I couldn't give a stuff if it fails or succeeds.   I'm past caring.   I think that the club I support will be well out of it anyway so it won't much affect me.  If it does, I'll pick and choose my matches and watch them if it seems fun.

 

There comes a time in life when you have to admit that some, possibly a lot, of your family might actually be idiots.  You still love them, but you stop taking their advice or listening to them an substantive points.    That's where I am with RL.

 

Fair enough Steve, got your message loud and clear, not much else to add.