The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Griff]

You've misread.

It says they will have four home fixtures. It doesn't say they will play SL clubs at home.

 

Agreed - it's a very common misconception.

 

As is that there'll be two games at home v $uperleague teams and two v Div 2 teams.  Just not possible.

[Griff]

Why? Just because it wasn't their preferred choice doesn't mean they think it won't work or doesn't deserve their support. It just means they thought that a different route was a better option but this one is still ok.

 

If that's your take on it - fine.  But it's not mine.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

If that's your take on it - fine. But it's not mine.

What is your take?

[Dave T]

Thanks for the info Dave, very interesting, but I would imagine that changes quite dramatically with 2/3 games to go. IMO player rotation and resting will be commonplace in the last few rounds, the carrot is too important to drop games in the 2x8. In the end it will all be about retaining the SL cash season in and season out.

Naturally some teams will drop in the last game or two, but often it is quite close.

 

I think resting players is a slightly risky game, but using the full squad is a club's prerogative I suppose.

[Terry Mullaney]

If that were so, they'd have voted for it.

No Griff, they preferred the other option and voted accordingly but lost. Doesn't mean they couldn't see anything good in the plan which went through.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

No Griff, they preferred the other option and voted accordingly but lost. Doesn't mean they couldn't see anything good in the plan which went through.

 

I didn't realise there were two options on the table, I had assumed they didn't vote for this option but had no choice but to accept it because they were outvoted. 

 

That says to me they couldn't see anything good enough about it to get them to vote for it, But if it was vote for one or the other, that could change things.

[keighley]

I'd agree with you, but I fear a £900K second eight squad will be so much weaker than a Elite SL £1.65M squad. The middle eight may work as a competition but breaking the big eight may be nigh on impossible.

 

Here's Mark Aston the legend.......

 

"At least they have made a decision, It remains to be see if it does mean promotion and relegation - I actually don't believe that"

 

If the funding is not right it means a 8 club Suprleague and a two tier championship. Mark Continues:-

 

"It depends on how the money is shared out if one team has double that of another then you would still surmise that the teams getting the most would win"

 

The Swiss model was used by Martyn as a warning, what was not AFAIK reported about this model was whether there was a huge financial gap between the top Swiss football clubs and the rest. If there wasn't then the warning from their experience may be stronger. Anyway....Mark again..

 

"At the moment the part timers  are going to struggle, the gap is too big" It's money that counts not format. "The set up from 2015 does not actually signal the chance for championship clubs to get promoted".

 

As it stands the top 8 clubs can smile about the decision because they will get better fixture lists and may get bigger crowds and cement their top 8 places. The bottom SL clubs are released from financial misery and can stay afloat reducing their spending - but may have to take some hammerings in the first 23 SL rounds, the top Championship clubs currently get nothing out of the format as Mark says.

 

The argument is not about format at all IMVHO it's about, as Padge always says "money".

Mark Aston, who has an unbeatable resume in RL, is stating exactly what myself and others without his authority and standing in the game, have been saying for weeks. The 3 x 8 does not guarantee that any team will be promoted and the probability, given as you day the disparite financial resources of the Championship clubs vis a vis SL clubs, is that nobe will be.

A traditional p and r system with a guarantee of promotion for the winner, even if they have to meet minimums standards to clinch the deal, is a must, This 3 x 8 system almost guarantees the retention of the status quo. It is practically a retention of a closed shop.

[sweaty craiq]

We cannot go part time to full time and vice versa, the gap is too big hence the solution lies within some sort of full time tier two

I am a two full time tens and believe this structure will lead us to that in 3 years, if fax Leigh and Fev finish in the top 4 then I see all FT next season and much stronger the season after

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Mark Aston, who has an unbeatable resume in RL, is stating exactly what myself and others without his authority and standing in the game, have been saying for weeks. The 3 x 8 does not guarantee that any team will be promoted and the probability, given as you day the disparite financial resources of the Championship clubs vis a vis SL clubs, is that nobe will be.

A traditional p and r system with a guarantee of promotion for the winner, even if they have to meet minimums standards to clinch the deal, is a must, This 3 x 8 system almost guarantees the retention of the status quo. It is practically a retention of a closed shop.

 

It will be interesting to see which 2 teams can compete with the ( 6 at the moment) SL clubs who they will be up against in the first split.

 

If the posts on here are any indication it will be Fev and Leigh, Both claim they are going to be well funded.

 

The second season will be even more interesting because if either are successful in the first season , they will be playing 23 games against the better SL sides , rather than the worst.

 

After that it could be all change

[superten]

just wondering what would happen if London went down this year and we bring in Toulouse as well . Then the year later catalan came down . HOW would clubs in the championship fund them away trips ? Plus imagine if then they all finished in the bottom 8 of the championship it would be a financial disaster.

[Steve May]

It will be interesting to see which 2 teams can compete with the ( 6 at the moment) SL clubs who they will be up against in the first split.

 

If the posts on here are any indication it will be Fev and Leigh, Both claim they are going to be well funded.

 

The second season will be even more interesting because if either are successful in the first season , they will be playing 23 games against the better SL sides , rather than the worst.

 

After that it could be all change

 

You're right, that second reason really will be when things come home to roost.  They'll basically have to hit the top 8 in their first half season up, or end up back where they started but this time demoralised and beaten up by the likes of Wigan, Leeds and Warrington.

 

That's very, very tough to do.

 

I think you'd have to go back to 2002 when Widnes finished 7th in their first season up to find a club that got into the top 8 on the first attempt.  Most teams finish in the bottom two first tine out. 

[Griff]

What is your take?

 

Despite what Terry says, my take is that they haven't changed their minds just because they lost the vote.

[Griff]

No Griff, they preferred the other option and voted accordingly but lost. Doesn't mean they couldn't see anything good in the plan which went through.

 

Doesn't mean they could either, Terry.

[Griff]

I didn't realise there were two options on the table, I had assumed they didn't vote for this option but had no choice but to accept it because they were outvoted. 

 

That says to me they couldn't see anything good enough about it to get them to vote for it, But if it was vote for one or the other, that could change things.

 

There were more than two.  The status quo was always an option.

[Griff]

just wondering what would happen if London went down this year and we bring in Toulouse as well . Then the year later catalan came down . HOW would clubs in the championship fund them away trips ? Plus imagine if then they all finished in the bottom 8 of the championship it would be a financial disaster.

 

RFL paid last time.  Cost about £10000 a trip.

[keighley]

Not sure if this has been raised on this debate but I have seen it said that the 4 Championship teams will play all mid 8 group games against SL team at home. This will mean that either the team that finished 9th or 10th (or both) will play one at home and six away whereas the team that finished 4th in the Championship will have 5 or 6 home games and only one or two away.

 

Surely the above is a ridiculous state of affairs and doesn't reward excellence in a tougher league?

If they were excellent in the tougher league they wouldn't be in the bottom four in the first place and so would avoid th3 middle eight. You could argue that they have the lesser number of home games because they had a sub par season whereas the Championship teams are rewarded with more home games because they had a good season and qualified for the middle eight.

[sweaty craiq]

You're right, that second reason really will be when things come home to roost. They'll basically have to hit the top 8 in their first half season up, or end up back where they started but this time demoralised and beaten up by the likes of Wigan, Leeds and Warrington.

That's very, very tough to do.

I think you'd have to go back to 2002 when Widnes finished 7th in their first season up to find a club that got into the top 8 on the first attempt. Most teams finish in the bottom two first tine out.

The joys of competitive sport so many answers to be found to so many questions, so much better than go belly up and stay up dont you think

Those with better vision will see that it would be no great difference to the situation we have now except you need to improve yourself every year to stay up and the bottom 4 will always be in the radar of the top 4 of tier 2 as the ground to build from to hit top 8

You flat capping Luddites need to get out more

[GIANTSTRIDES]

There were more than two.  The status quo was always an option.

 

Thanks for that, I knew there had been preferences disclosed , i hadn't realised they were on the table at the time of the vote, Either way it says the 6 didn't want it , but were out voted.

[Griff]

If they were excellent in the tougher league they wouldn't be in the bottom four in the first place and so would avoid th3 middle eight. You could argue that they have the lesser number of home games because they had a sub par season whereas the Championship teams are rewarded with more home games because they had a good season and qualified for the middle eight.

 

It's just 4-3 though, keighley.  As mentioned on the last page, RS is labouring under a misapprehension that the Div 2 teams will play all the $uperleague teams at home.  Not so.

[Griff]

The joys of competitive sport so many answers to be found to so many questions, so much better than go belly up and stay up dont you think

Those with better vision will see that it would be no great difference to the situation we have now except you need to improve yourself every year to stay up and the bottom 4 will always be in the radar of the top 4 of tier 2 as the ground to build from to hit top 8

You flat capping Luddites need to get out more

 

We'll see.  If we live that long.

[Scubby]

You mean like the current system, like I said?

What were Cas/Wakey/Widnes playing for for most of the back end of the season?

 

You are playing for points and final standings and to say you finished higher than last year - thus improved - as Widnes did in 2013.

 

In 2015, Widnes could finish bottom on P23 L23 and start on 0 points in 2x8 and survive. In 2016 they could finish in 9th, P23 W11, miss out on the play-offs on points difference and start on 0 and get relegated. So in 2016 where have they finished 9th or 13th? Did they make progress on 2015 or go backwards?

 

The system rewards mediocrity sadly, and will be exploited fully be those clubs who want to keep their hands on the SL cash - season in; season out,.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Scubby

[Griff]

You are playing for points and final standings and to say you finished higher than last year - thus improved - as Widnes did in 2013.

 

In 2015, Widnes could finish bottom on P23 L23 and start on 0 points in 2x8 and survive. In 2016 they could finish in 9th, P23 W11, miss out on the play-offs on points difference and start on 0 and get relegated. So in 2016 where have they finished 9th or 13th? Did they make progress on 2015 or go backwards?

 

Nooooooooooooooooo!

 

What's the 2x8 ?   Not another system .........

[Scubby]

Nooooooooooooooooo!

 

What's the 2x8 ?   Not another system .........

 

The second group of eight.

[my missus]

don't know if this has been mentioned before, why did catalan not vote? if they had voted against the vote would have been 7 each and this thread would be locked by now.

and has it been mentioned that the play offs will be between the top 4.

[Griff]

don't know if this has been mentioned before, why did catalan not vote? if they had voted against the vote would have been 7 each and this thread would be locked by now.

and has it been mentioned that the play offs will be between the top 4.

 

You'll have to ask Catalan why they didn't vote.

 

Four team play-off ?  Yes - in the top and third eights.

 

In the middle eight, it's Fourth v Fifth.