The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[bamfordsbeans]

Championship clubs are still operating on the existing salary cap which I believe is £300k.Therefore any extra outlay shouldn,t take place until next season. It will be interesting to see the kind of players they attract-and how many overseas players they will be allowed.

[Griff]

Championship clubs are still operating on the existing salary cap which I believe is £300k.Therefore any extra outlay shouldn't take place until next season. It will be interesting to see the kind of players they attract - and how many overseas players they will be allowed.

 

Indeed.  We have a long wait ahead.

 

And - again - the salary caps and tv share-outs have yet to be agreed.

[The Parksider]

I'm sure there will be a big temptation by some Championship clubs to overspend this coming season with high stakes that have put on being in the second 12 of 24 teams. With, at the present time, 5 teams to be relegated, from a financial point of view there will be a vast difference in funding. The 23rd team of the 2 leagues (or 9th placed Championship team) will collect around £160k and the promoted team £150k, whilst the relegated teams pick a one-off payment of £25k and the £75k that all the Championship 1 clubs will receive.

Well for the championship SL wannabees it will be fascinating seeing if any of them do put a lot of money where their mouth is, or wether all the moans and groans about we can do better were just hot air. For those threatened with the "league of death" it will be important to try to stay out of that.

I keep forgetting that the new structure doesn't stop at fev, fax, leigh and Sheffield!!!

I will be fascinated to see how the crowds go at the clubs who won't be able to compete in the middle eight and end their seasons in a third tier, also the crowds of five clubs who end up in the fourth tier.

Any calculation as to "increased crowds" in this new structure has to take into the reckoning a lot of decreased crowds by the looks of it??

[Keith T]

Championship clubs are still operating on the existing salary cap which I believe is £300k.Therefore any extra outlay shouldn,t take place until next season. It will be interesting to see the kind of players they attract-and how many overseas players they will be allowed.

That is quite correct but it is this seasons placings that will determine where you play next season and, if the money is forthcoming at the end of this season, it could mean a difference of £60k+ to a relegated team.    That is how important it is to some of these clubs to be in the top 9 this season.

[Griff]

I keep forgetting that the new structure doesn't stop at fev, fax, leigh and Sheffield!!!

 

 

Indeed - and it's likely - though not certain - that two of those clubs will be consigned to an anticlimactic end to the season in the Third Eight.  The effect on gates on this division will be interesting.

[jpmc]

Well for the championship SL wannabees it will be fascinating seeing if any of them do put a lot of money where their mouth is, or wether all the moans and groans about we can do better were just hot air. For those threatened with the "league of death" it will be important to try to stay out of that.

I keep forgetting that the new structure doesn't stop at fev, fax, leigh and Sheffield!!!

I will be fascinated to see how the crowds go at the clubs who won't be able to compete in the middle eight and end their seasons in a third tier, also the crowds of five clubs who end up in the fourth tier.

Any calculation as to "increased crowds" in this new structure has to take into the reckoning a lot of decreased crowds by the looks of it??

Not sure what you mean by fourth tier?,isn't the sport staying at three tiers?

[GIANTSTRIDES]

In theory but don't bet your house on it. The deck is stacked in favour of the incumbents.

 

The deck may appear to be stacked in favor of the top SL clubs, but would you not say that whatever system you played the best teams would always end up at the top, and the reason they are the best teams is because they are the rich ones (so to speak ).

 

One thing that i think is a real possibility is that the whole standard will drop if the system stays long enough, I'm not saying it definitely will but It is definitely a possibility,

 

If there are chairmen (as Parky says, and i don't doubt him ) that are wanting to reduce the money they are having to put into their clubs to keep them competitive with the top, It stands to reason the will have to go for a lower class player, This then brings about the Super 8 that is talked about. What is to stop the same thing happening as did with the 14 side SL,

 As the comp gets more intense at the very top, maybe more chairmen will fall by the wayside and opt for the less competitive ( and cheaper second 8 league ), If that was to transpire you then have 3/4s  or more playing at a lower level, which to me is the worst possible outcome.

 

I can visualise there being a Super 6 not too far into the future. Worst case scenario ? yes ! but for me It's as feasible as the forecast of the thousands that are supposed to be going to flock to the second class games.

 

I think there is a real danger of club's trying to get into the top 12 each year, not particularly to compete but to get the funding, If 3/4s more chairmen go down this route, the same clubs would almost be guaranteed to be P and R  each season, which would mean that todays C clubs like Fev Fax whoever would be no farther forward than now, ( unless they get a very rich man ) and most of the game would be at a lower standard.

 

Does that make sense .

[Griff]

Not sure what you mean by fourth tier?,isn't the sport staying at three tiers?

 

Depends what you mean by a "tier".

[Dave T]

The policy document clearly explains what a tier is.

 

Based on current names:

 

Super League (12 teams) - Tier 1

Championship (12 teams) - Tier 2

Championship 1 (the rest!) - Tier 3

[Griff]

The policy document clearly explains what a tier is.

 

Based on current names:

 

Super League (12 teams) - Tier 1

Championship (12 teams) - Tier 2

Championship 1 (the rest!) - Tier 3

 

Thanks. That's helpful.

[sweaty craiq]

Well, once again - "investment".  What's the return on this "investment" ?

 

It encourages overspending because the funding structure means that the only way a Div 2 club can compete with a $uperleague club is to borrow money from - or issue worthless shares to - "investors". There's no way they can compete on trading income alone.

 

You are assuming return is financial,and not personal pleasure ie philanthropy, I am yet to see a person put money into a sport on the basis of seeing a cash return. The shares are worthless but it is a very tax efficient way of 'investing'

[Grollo]

You are assuming return is financial,and not personal pleasure ie philanthropy, I am yet to see a person put money into a sport on the basis of seeing a cash return. The shares are worthless but it is a very tax efficient way of 'investing'

And what is it before anything else? You seem to have your finger on the pulse.

[yipyee]

You are assuming return is financial,and not personal pleasure ie philanthropy, I am yet to see a person put money into a sport on the basis of seeing a cash return. The shares are worthless but it is a very tax efficient way of 'investing'

glazer family

[sweaty craiq]

glazer family

 yipiyee, you found one, maybe?

[yipyee]

yipiyee, you found one, maybe?

they bought the club with debt, man utd now pay this debt off....they jet all over the world on company card......

hicks and Gillette tried this with the scousers, bought them was gonna lend money to build a stadium, the profits of which would pay the debt off......the problem was they borrowed 30 mill to buy torres, they couldn't pay this back. .....

[keighley]

The deck may appear to be stacked in favor of the top SL clubs, but would you not say that whatever system you played the best teams would always end up at the top, and the reason they are the best teams is because they are the rich ones (so to speak ).

 

One thing that i think is a real possibility is that the whole standard will drop if the system stays long enough, I'm not saying it definitely will but It is definitely a possibility,

 

If there are chairmen (as Parky says, and i don't doubt him ) that are wanting to reduce the money they are having to put into their clubs to keep them competitive with the top, It stands to reason the will have to go for a lower class player, This then brings about the Super 8 that is talked about. What is to stop the same thing happening as did with the 14 side SL,

 As the comp gets more intense at the very top, maybe more chairmen will fall by the wayside and opt for the less competitive ( and cheaper second 8 league ), If that was to transpire you then have 3/4s  or more playing at a lower level, which to me is the worst possible outcome.

 

I can visualise there being a Super 6 not too far into the future. Worst case scenario ? yes ! but for me It's as feasible as the forecast of the thousands that are supposed to be going to flock to the second class games.

 

I think there is a real danger of club's trying to get into the top 12 each year, not particularly to compete but to get the funding, If 3/4s more chairmen go down this route, the same clubs would almost be guaranteed to be P and R  each season, which would mean that todays C clubs like Fev Fax whoever would be no farther forward than now, ( unless they get a very rich man ) and most of the game would be at a lower standard.

 

Does that make sense .

 

The deck is more stacked in favour of the bottom four SL clubs who will fall into the middle 8. They will be playing with a full battle hardened SL squad on SL salary cap against teams who have played a championship season against such powers as Rochdale, Keighley and Crusaders on a much smaller budget although it is going to be sweetened a bit but not enough.

 

Given these circumstances it is highly unlikely that a Championship team will able to mount a credible challenge for one of the promotion spots and I think it will be rare when there is a promotion from this group.

 

A 2 x 12, straight p and r would have, subject to standards being met, guaranteed promotion.

[The Parksider]

You are assuming return is financial,and not personal pleasure ie philanthropy, I am yet to see a person put money into a sport on the basis of seeing a cash return. The shares are worthless but it is a very tax efficient way of 'investing'

 

That's an excellent to the point reply, but doesn't it (again) depend on wether the money is against any assets i.e. the ground/land?? If that is the final return ithen that is to the long term detriment of the club.

 

Less and less clubs seem to have assets of this kind. The next question is what return is there for the game with this philanthropy? If the Philanthropist pays for five thousand empty seats in the stadium and outbids clubs who develop pro players for their services then he is building a house of cards.

 

That is then to the detriment of clubs aiming to invest in and develop the games professional player pool. If Ken Davey can't be bothered with an academy as is alleged and buys Bradfords best youngsters why should Bradford bother to develop them in the first place.

 

Take all this to it's extreme. There are those on here who support the idea of mega rich men suddenly appearing to elevate Leigh above Wigan, Keighley above Bradford. Fev above Wakey/Cas, etc.

 

What is the best situation for the game? The 12 biggest clubs using Superleague to grow the playing roster and the paying crowds??

 

Or the 12 smallest clubs propped up by a philanthropic £4Million a year until the owner gets bored, runs into business problems or dies.

 

Can we really afford Messrs Davey and Koucash to prop up essentially small clubs, whilst bigger clubs like Wakefield and Bradford flounder for want of charity?? Remember if Koucash had not stepped in Salford would be no more for all the tens of £Millions Wilkinson put in.

 

I think not. There is no great point to throwing £Millions in the wrong place just to make an individual happy. We should take every penny of philanthropy we can but SL places should not be open to being playthings, and SL clubs should grow the game, not puffed up ego's.

Edited January 28, 2014 by The Parksider

[Griff]

You are assuming return is financial,and not personal pleasure ie philanthropy, I am yet to see a person put money into a sport on the basis of seeing a cash return. The shares are worthless but it is a very tax efficient way of 'investing'

 

What is the tax advantage ?

 

Add the bloke who bought Third Lanark in 1962 and the bloke who sold Everton to Betty Turpin's lad to that list.

[Lobbygobbler]

That's an excellent to the point reply, but doesn't it (again) depend on wether the money is against any assets i.e. the ground/land?? If that is the final return ithen that is to the long term detriment of the club.

Less and less clubs seem to have assets of this kind. The next question is what return is there for the game with this philanthropy? If the Philanthropist pays for five thousand empty seats in the stadium and outbids clubs who develop pro players for their services then he is building a house of cards.

That is then to the detriment of clubs aiming to invest in and develop the games professional player pool. If Ken Davey can't be bothered with an academy as is alleged and buys Bradfords best youngsters why should Bradford bother to develop them in the first place.

Take all this to it's extreme. There are those on here who support the idea of mega rich men suddenly appearing to elevate Leigh above Wigan, Keighley above Bradford. Fev above Wakey/Cas, etc.

What is the best situation for the game? The 12 biggest clubs using Superleague to grow the playing roster and the paying crowds??

Or the 12 smallest clubs propped up by a philanthropic £4Million a year until the owner gets bored, runs into business problems or dies.

Can we really afford Messrs Davey and Koucash to prop up essentially small clubs, whilst bigger clubs like Wakefield and Bradford flounder for want of charity?? Remember if Koucash had not stepped in Salford would be no more for all the tens of £Millions Wilkinson put in.

I think not. There is no great point to throwing £Millions in the wrong place just to make an individual happy. We should take every penny of philanthropy we can but SL places should not be open to being playthings, and SL clubs should grow the game, not puffed up ego's.

Not sure what you are getting at. Is it ok for some clubs to have rich backers but not others. So Wigan don't have a rich backer? Without one they would not be a big club. They are not a big city like Leeds.

[yipyee]

Not sure what you are getting at. Is it ok for some clubs to have rich backers but not others. So Wigan don't have a rich backer? Without one they would not be a big club. They are not a big city like Leeds.

 

Wigan have a rich backer, but how much does he 'loan' to the club? Very little......also it doesn't matter the size of the area, its the size of the support from fans and sponsors......................

[GaryO]

Wigan have a rich backer, but how much does he 'loan' to the club? Very little......also it doesn't matter the size of the area, its the size of the support from fans and sponsors......................

 

How do you define a sponsor, does it have to be a corporate organization, or could it be just a individual, or maybe a very big collection of unnamed individuals lets say donating something like £500K. 

[keighley]

That's an excellent to the point reply, but doesn't it (again) depend on wether the money is against any assets i.e. the ground/land?? If that is the final return ithen that is to the long term detriment of the club.

 

Less and less clubs seem to have assets of this kind. The next question is what return is there for the game with this philanthropy? If the Philanthropist pays for five thousand empty seats in the stadium and outbids clubs who develop pro players for their services then he is building a house of cards.

 

That is then to the detriment of clubs aiming to invest in and develop the games professional player pool. If Ken Davey can't be bothered with an academy as is alleged and buys Bradfords best youngsters why should Bradford bother to develop them in the first place.

 

Take all this to it's extreme. There are those on here who support the idea of mega rich men suddenly appearing to elevate Leigh above Wigan, Keighley above Bradford. Fev above Wakey/Cas, etc.

 

What is the best situation for the game? The 12 biggest clubs using Superleague to grow the playing roster and the paying crowds??

 

Or the 12 smallest clubs propped up by a philanthropic £4Million a year until the owner gets bored, runs into business problems or dies.

 

Can we really afford Messrs Davey and Koucash to prop up essentially small clubs, whilst bigger clubs like Wakefield and Bradford flounder for want of charity?? Remember if Koucash had not stepped in Salford would be no more for all the tens of £Millions Wilkinson put in.

 

I think not. There is no great point to throwing £Millions in the wrong place just to make an individual happy. We should take every penny of philanthropy we can but SL places should not be open to being playthings, and SL clubs should grow the game, not puffed up ego's.

 

All very laudable BUT how many of these clubs are not supported by philanthropic owner/investors. ? Maybe 4. The reality is we have no options but to rely on the Davy and Khoukash segment of the game.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Wigan have a rich backer, but how much does he 'loan' to the club? Very little......also it doesn't matter the size of the area, its the size of the support from fans and sponsors......................

 

I don't know how much he loans to the club, But i agree with what you say, It's about how you run the club, and he quite obviously knows how to do it, Leeds the same, and Warrington are going that way, as well as Saints.

 

These are the clubs we should be using as a benchmark, they have kept up the standards in the same markets as everyone else, So what do the RFL do they change the system in the hope it will create more Wigans. It's not the systems It's the people.

 

I hope Fev's Man comes through and they have a lot of success,  If they do it will be because of his money or business sense, He can't play on the field but he can create all the right conditions to breed success.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

The deck is more stacked in favour of the bottom four SL clubs who will fall into the middle 8. They will be playing with a full battle hardened SL squad on SL salary cap against teams who have played a championship season against such powers as Rochdale, Keighley and Crusaders on a much smaller budget although it is going to be sweetened a bit but not enough.

 

Given these circumstances it is highly unlikely that a Championship team will able to mount a credible challenge for one of the promotion spots and I think it will be rare when there is a promotion from this group.

 

A 2 x 12, straight p and r would have, subject to standards being met, guaranteed promotion.

 

I also would much rather have 2x12 and the rest of your post more or less agrees with mine, I like you can see the same clubs going up and down every season, while the Elite at the top has the chance to shrink.

[The Parksider]

Not sure what you are getting at. Is it ok for some clubs to have rich backers but not others. So Wigan don't have a rich backer? Without one they would not be a big club. They are not a big city like Leeds.

 

Can anyone answer this excellent question??

 

Padge perhaps??