The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[foozler]

Apologies if this has already been dealt with previously, but I do have a life!

 

What is going to happen with regards to competition sponsorship once we get to the 3*8 part of the season. I presume Top 8 will be FU Playoff Series, and bottom 8 will be Kingstone Press Playoff Series, but what about the middle tier? 

 

Don't suppose for a minute it will be the FUKingstonePressSuperleagueChampionshipRelegation/PromotionPlayoffSeries so any ideas anyone?

[gingerjon]

Apologies if this has already been dealt with previously, but I do have a life!

 

What is going to happen with regards to competition sponsorship once we get to the 3*8 part of the season. I presume Top 8 will be FU Playoff Series, and bottom 8 will be Kingstone Press Playoff Series, but what about the middle tier? 

 

Don't suppose for a minute it will be the FUKingstonePressSuperleagueChampionshipRelegation/PromotionPlayoffSeries so any ideas anyone?

 

Don't know about sponsorship but the names are:

 

1st 8: Super League

2nd 8: Super League Qualifying

3rd 8: Championship Shield

Bottom bit no one notices: Championship 1

[yipyee]

All very laudable BUT how many of these clubs are not supported by philanthropic owner/investors. ? Maybe 4. The reality is we have no options but to rely on the Davy and Khoukash segment of the game.

 

I think his point (and its a very good one) is that a rich man who comes in stabalises the club, makes it self sufficient and leaves it in a healthy state is whats needed....

 

Guys who come in spend millions on first team players and then walks away (sometimes with all the clubs assets) and leaves the club in a mess is not whats needed!! 

[GIANTSTRIDES]

All very laudable BUT how many of these clubs are not supported by philanthropic owner/investors. ? Maybe 4. The reality is we have no options but to rely on the Davy and Khoukash segment of the game.

 

Does it matter where the money comes from as long as a club is competitive and the standards stay up,

 

I would argue that there is a much better chance of a club getting nearer to self sufficiency from a strong position rather than a weak one.

 

I know nothing of K Davy's investment in Huddersfield, Other than i am glad he is there. Maybe his stake in the stadium covers his investments. I just see him as the owner of the club ( or business if you like ) If he pulls out ,the shop shuts, like any other.

 

Like you ( i suspect ) I was watching League long before Mr Davy came along, I won't stop now, although more and more will become on TV in the next few years I expect. I hope the crowds at Huddersfield keep growing, But as has been said many times ,Sadly It is a soccer town  first and foremost.

[Ackroman]

With respect to the money argument, it's the closeness in quality of the players that will make the system work. 

 

SL is struggling to hold on to world class talent and even the more humble clubs in SL will struggle to attract even second rate antipodeans due to the exchange rates and the money awash down under.

 

The competition, for the foreseeable future will be based on your ability to build a squad not buy one. It puts the obvious candidates under a lot of pressure because they've relied too heavily on buying power rather than building their club.

 

I don't for instance, think that some of the recent pre-season games are a fluke, they'e an indication of these differences playing out.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

With respect to the money argument, it's the closeness in quality of the players that will make the system work. 

 

SL is struggling to hold on to world class talent and even the more humble clubs in SL will struggle to attract even second rate antipodeans due to the exchange rates and the money awash down under.

 

The competition, for the foreseeable future will be based on your ability to build a squad not buy one. It puts the obvious candidates under a lot of pressure because they've relied too heavily on buying power rather than building their club.

 

I don't for instance, think that some of the recent pre-season games are a fluke, they'e an indication of these differences playing out.

 

Good point, but the better run and wealthier clubs tend to produce the better young players, and more of them. ( some exceptions of course )

 

Some areas produce good youngsters but can't afford to keep them, which is where a money man would make all the difference, Wakey must come into this category

[Keith T]

The deck is more stacked in favour of the bottom four SL clubs who will fall into the middle 8. They will be playing with a full battle hardened SL squad on SL salary cap against teams who have played a championship season against such powers as Rochdale, Keighley and Crusaders on a much smaller budget although it is going to be sweetened a bit but not enough.

 

Given these circumstances it is highly unlikely that a Championship team will able to mount a credible challenge for one of the promotion spots and I think it will be rare when there is a promotion from this group.

 

A 2 x 12, straight p and r would have, subject to standards being met, guaranteed promotion.

 

Not only is it stacked in favour of the bottom 4 SL clubs but it is also stacked in favour of the two SL clubs that will be relegated this season with parachute payments of £900k and £850k respectively.    The top Championship this season will get £550k and runner-up £500k.   After that from 3rd down it ranges between £250k and £160k depending on finishing position, so the two relegated clubs have a more favourable chance of being in the mix in the middle group than the Championship clubs.

 

I also predict that if one of the two relegated SL clubs replaces one of the bottom four SL teams at the end of the 2015 season we will be fed how good the system is and how it shows that a Championship club can achieve promotion and so on.

[sweaty craiq]

I also would much rather have 2x12 and the rest of your post more or less agrees with mine, I like you can see the same clubs going up and down every season, while the Elite at the top has the chance to shrink.

You need to map out in your mind the likely reality of 3 years down the line if the funding that was mentioned is a reality

You will have 4 current championship clubs who will have been running FT for three years with the two relegated SL clubs from 2014, you then have 18 existing FT clubs add in a Toulouse and another and you have a ready made two FT tens to have P&R within, you introduce a 3 year franchise with a view to getting two twelves and hey presto you have a plan to expand the game encompassing P&R from a FT environment

[redjonn]

Does it matter where the money comes from as long as a club is competitive and the standards stay up,

 

I would argue that there is a much better chance of a club getting nearer to self sufficiency from a strong position rather than a weak one.

 

I know nothing of K Davy's investment in Huddersfield, Other than i am glad he is there. Maybe his stake in the stadium covers his investments. I just see him as the owner of the club ( or business if you like ) If he pulls out ,the shop shuts, like any other.

 

Like you ( i suspect ) I was watching League long before Mr Davy came along, I won't stop now, although more and more will become on TV in the next few years I expect. I hope the crowds at Huddersfield keep growing, But as has been said many times ,Sadly It is a soccer town  first and foremost.

Your last sentence could apply to all towns or cities, so to me is too simplistic to understand why low attendances.  

 

Even if you look from a purely football perspective the average crowds is around 15000, yep way more than rugby league but still hardly suggests massive interest in attending football match.

 

Of course depends if looking from purely the towns population  (almost 150,000)or the wider Kirkless (almost 500,000). I assume should be looking at wider Kirklee's as I would imagine that should be the target market.

 

Thus can't be as simple as saying its a football town.  Where is most entertainment spend in Huddersfield/kirklees or is the demographics such that only minimal available for spending and so no attendance but lots of interest.

[Ackroman]

Good point, but the better run and wealthier clubs tend to produce the better young players, and more of them. ( some exceptions of course )

 

Some areas produce good youngsters but can't afford to keep them, which is where a money man would make all the difference, Wakey must come into this category

 

Wakefield now there's a club who have a great opportunity, sadly they tend to ignore the kids they work with.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Wakefield now there's a club who have a great opportunity, sadly they tend to ignore the kids they work with.

 

Wakey are only a strong money man away from being a big club again IMO, That said Fev could be another Fartown, if MR N has the mind for it.

[bobbruce]

You need to map out in your mind the likely reality of 3 years down the line if the funding that was mentioned is a reality

You will have 4 current championship clubs who will have been running FT for three years with the two relegated SL clubs from 2014, you then have 18 existing FT clubs add in a Toulouse and another and you have a ready made two FT tens to have P&R within, you introduce a 3 year franchise with a view to getting two twelves and hey presto you have a plan to expand the game encompassing P&R from a FT environment

So your target if to re introduce licences

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Your last sentence could apply to all towns or cities, so to me is too simplistic to understand why low attendances.  

 

Even if you look from a purely football perspective the average crowds is around 15000, yep way more than rugby league but still hardly suggests massive interest in attending football match.

 

Of course depends if looking from purely the towns population  (almost 150,000)or the wider Kirkless (almost 500,000). I assume should be looking at wider Kirklee's as I would imagine that should be the target market.

 

Thus can't be as simple as saying its a football town.  Where is most entertainment spend in Huddersfield/kirklees or is the demographics such that only minimal available for spending and so no attendance but lots of interest.

 

 

Going back to Fartowns last really good days, people would go to watch Fartown one week, Town the next, whether people carn't afford these days i don't know.

A much more likely reason is the complete lack of anything that can be remotely regarded as success, for fifty years. They are having to grow a whole new set of Fans.

 

I know what you are saying about competition from Soccer, But Warrington , Wakey , Cas for eg don't have it directly in the same Town , let alone the same stadium. They do have competition from bigger and better clubs  in some cases, and well done to them if they win the battle..

 

Wigan are a bit different, as far as i know League is more or less regarded as the first game there, In Huddersfield It's the other way round, That said people are working very hard to change that, and you have to realize that Wigan ( a club i admire greatly ) will still pull in less Fans than a second string Huddersfield Town side do, That is a club at the very top, Let alone one who have just won their first title for 80 years.

 

This is not intended as some sort of excuse for Fartowns low crowds, I don't feel i need an excuse, I'm not responsible for it. I think It's about 3 times what it was when SL started, but i feel it will be a long job.

 

In the 50s and 60s Huddersfield like most Towns was working flat out and was regarded as one of the richest Towns in the country, don't know where it rates now , But if the amount of money being spent by the Uni ,or Kirklees is any guide it is hardly skint,

 

I'm told the Holme Valley is very popular with people from Manchester, who still work there, Don't know what their sporting tastes are,

You are right about Kirklees it has a big population, It also has other League teams, and we all know how people round here feel about watching anyone but their own team.

 

Reality is there are too many clubs in W yorks but that's another argument.

[keighley]

Going back to Fartowns last really good days, people would go to watch Fartown one week, Town the next, whether people carn't afford these days i don't know.

A much more likely reason is the complete lack of anything that can be remotely regarded as success, for fifty years. They are having to grow a whole new set of Fans.

 

I know what you are saying about competition from Soccer, But Warrington , Wakey , Cas for eg don't have it directly in the same Town , let alone the same stadium. They do have competition from bigger and better clubs  in some cases, and well done to them if they win the battle..

 

Wigan are a bit different, as far as i know League is more or less regarded as the first game there, In Huddersfield It's the other way round, That said people are working very hard to change that, and you have to realize that Wigan ( a club i admire greatly ) will still pull in less Fans than a second string Huddersfield Town side do, That is a club at the very top, Let alone one who have just won their first title for 80 years.

 

This is not intended as some sort of excuse for Fartowns low crowds, I don't feel i need an excuse, I'm not responsible for it. I think It's about 3 times what it was when SL started, but i feel it will be a long job.

 

In the 50s and 60s Huddersfield like most Towns was working flat out and was regarded as one of the richest Towns in the country, don't know where it rates now , But if the amount of money being spent by the Uni ,or Kirklees is any guide it is hardly skint,

 

I'm told the Holme Valley is very popular with people from Manchester, who still work there, Don't know what their sporting tastes are,

You are right about Kirklees it has a big population, It also has other League teams, and we all know how people round here feel about watching anyone but their own team.

 

Reality is there are too many clubs in W yorks but that's another argument.

 

Sydney has a population of 4.3 million and 9 NRL clubs which is 477,000 per club.

 

West Yorkshire has a population of 2.1 million and 5 SL clubs which is 420,000 per club. 

 

Both places have lower level clubs.  These population figures should enough to sustain the clubs.

 

The population of Wigan is 317,000 and the Wigan club does OK.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Sydney has a population of 4.3 million and 9 NRL clubs which is 477,000 per club.

 

West Yorkshire has a population of 2.1 million and 5 SL clubs which is 420,000 per club. 

 

Both places have lower level clubs.  These population figures should enough to sustain the clubs.

 

The population of Wigan is 317,000 and the Wigan club does OK.

 

Wigan is a very impressive club for many reasons.

 

Comparing West Yorkshire to Sydney is pointless IMO, At 477.000 per club how many clubs should we have in London, There must be 8 or 9 million there, What matters is how many of them want to watch Rugby league, In Wigan the figure is good, and they have worked to keep it there , In other places not so good, But if you come up with a solution, Contact KD, Or better still the RFL.

[redjonn]

Going back to Fartowns last really good days, people would go to watch Fartown one week, Town the next, whether people carn't afford these days i don't know.

A much more likely reason is the complete lack of anything that can be remotely regarded as success, for fifty years. They are having to grow a whole new set of Fans.

 

I know what you are saying about competition from Soccer, But Warrington , Wakey , Cas for eg don't have it directly in the same Town , let alone the same stadium. They do have competition from bigger and better clubs  in some cases, and well done to them if they win the battle..

 

Wigan are a bit different, as far as i know League is more or less regarded as the first game there, In Huddersfield It's the other way round, That said people are working very hard to change that, and you have to realize that Wigan ( a club i admire greatly ) will still pull in less Fans than a second string Huddersfield Town side do, That is a club at the very top, Let alone one who have just won their first title for 80 years.

 

This is not intended as some sort of excuse for Fartowns low crowds, I don't feel i need an excuse, I'm not responsible for it. I think It's about 3 times what it was when SL started, but i feel it will be a long job.

 

In the 50s and 60s Huddersfield like most Towns was working flat out and was regarded as one of the richest Towns in the country, don't know where it rates now , But if the amount of money being spent by the Uni ,or Kirklees is any guide it is hardly skint,

 

I'm told the Holme Valley is very popular with people from Manchester, who still work there, Don't know what their sporting tastes are,

You are right about Kirklees it has a big population, It also has other League teams, and we all know how people round here feel about watching anyone but their own team.

 

Reality is there are too many clubs in W yorks but that's another argument.

 

Some interesting comments.  No doubt less available spending is an issue but it doesn't seem to be spent on the Towns football either. I note from UK wide spending profile reports that theater and cinema spending has been increasing plus restaurant spending - so I'm guessing Huddersfield area would be similar. Mind you its us oldies than seem to have the spending power, so maybe clubs should look to target them more... the under 30s have the least spending... well the report I've read.

 

Whilst the town football may not be seeing particularly high attendance maybe soccer interest now goes to the likes of Manchester and the dominance of the premier league. Similar for Wigan, Saints and Warrington as their population profiles have changed with people moving in from non traditional Rugby League area's, i.e. from Merseyside, Liverpool and Manchester - for example when I go back to st helens more and more scouse accents pop up.

 

I'm assuming clubs need to broaden their fan base demographics. 

[yipyee]

So your target if to re introduce licences

I think he likes licencing but if leigh wasn't in his 20 then it would be pitch falks at the ready! !

[yipyee]

Sydney has a population of 4.3 million and 9 NRL clubs which is 477,000 per club.

West Yorkshire has a population of 2.1 million and 5 SL clubs which is 420,000 per club.

Both places have lower level clubs. These population figures should enough to sustain the clubs.

The population of Wigan is 317,000 and the Wigan club does OK.

how many total sports clubs in each??

[yipyee]

Some interesting comments. No doubt less available spending is an issue but it doesn't seem to be spent on the Towns football either. I note from UK wide spending profile reports that theater and cinema spending has been increasing plus restaurant spending - so I'm guessing Huddersfield area would be similar. Mind you its us oldies than seem to have the spending power, so maybe clubs should look to target them more... the under 30s have the least spending... well the report I've read.

Whilst the town football may not be seeing particularly high attendance maybe soccer interest now goes to the likes of Manchester and the dominance of the premier league. Similar for Wigan, Saints and Warrington as their population profiles have changed with people moving in from non traditional Rugby League area's, i.e. from Merseyside, Liverpool and Manchester - for example when I go back to st helens more and more scouse accents pop up.

I'm assuming clubs need to broaden their fan base demographics.

under thirties are spending all their wages on mortgage/rent the oldies are benefitting from this as their propertys have been inflated greatly, oldies are drawing pensions as well as working past retirement age. .. keeping jobs from the young whilst basking in double wages......

[The Parksider]

Reality is there are too many clubs in W yorks but that's another argument.

 

It's a good argument.

 

Leeds can manage to find 15,000 fans and 22 Leeds born professionals so they manage to sustain a competitive Super League club.

 

Bradford can manage 15,000 fans and were late to the quality academy system but started to turn them out sadly due to financial difficulties they have had to sell these lads on, Burgess, Whitehead, Bateman , Kopczak etc.

 

So the reality is West Yorkshire has managed to support two real Superleague clubs. Now they have one.

 

Getting Bradford back on track and getting one club in the Calder area where reality shows there's enough good young players to stock a Superleague team and 20,000 fans, enough to sustain one club even if half jump ship hankering after the past.

 

Five SL clubs is Fairyland. One is reality, three would take a strong will and good planning. 2/12/3/8 is not that it's a weak cop out and no plan at all.

[Keith T]

Why does every thread end up talking about Yorkshire, Yorkshire clubs and average attendances, etc?     Re-structure of the league is the subject!!!

[redjonn]

under thirties are spending all their wages on mortgage/rent the oldies are benefitting from this as their propertys have been inflated greatly, oldies are drawing pensions as well as working past retirement age. .. keeping jobs from the young whilst basking in double wages......

 

mind you the report also says that 18 to 30's have a high spend on alcohol and digital media, e,g film and music streaming.

 

So some sections of under 30s community have spending power, just not as high as over 50's.  I guess one of the major issues is the fan base demographics, i.e. RL doesn't have enough of those that spend and is not sufficiently attractive product to change spend.  This would have more impact than restructuring. Although some think that it will improve its attractiveness to new fans via improved intensity of the games. Comfort and facilities I suspect is more important to a other demographic of fans.

Edited January 28, 2014 by redjonn

[sweaty craiq]

I think he likes licencing but if leigh wasn't in his 20 then it would be pitch falks at the ready! !

 

Luddites get were water can't

[GIANTSTRIDES]

mind you the report also says that 18 to 30's have a high spend on alcohol and digital media, e,g film and music streaming.

 

So some sections of under 30s community have spending power, just not as high as over 50's.  I guess one of the major issues is the fan base demographics, i.e. RL doesn't have enough of those that spend and is not sufficiently attractive product to change spend.  This would have more impact than restructuring. Although some think that it will improve its attractiveness to new fans via improved intensity of the games. Comfort and facilities I suspect is more important to a other demographic of fans.

 

League is a sport IMO that many young people look on as "It's never really caught on " It's understanable, They have never seen Fev at Wembley, never saw Wigan and Hull put on the super show, they look around and see Football going loony with money, Union awash with it , and filling stadia for internationals, just about every sport seems to be going forward except League, which is a yearly story of clubs going down the pan, or barely surviving,

 

We do not project the right image, We do not have the right people running the game, we do not get our share of what's going from sponsers etc, On the field we are second to none, Off it we are also rans.

 

Last time i read anything about it Viewing figures for League were better than for Union, Who gets most TV money ?,  Just my opinion of course , but none of this has anything at all to do with formats, it has to do with people.

[keighley]

It's a good argument.

 

Leeds can manage to find 15,000 fans and 22 Leeds born professionals so they manage to sustain a competitive Super League club.

 

Bradford can manage 15,000 fans and were late to the quality academy system but started to turn them out sadly due to financial difficulties they have had to sell these lads on, Burgess, Whitehead, Bateman , Kopczak etc.

 

So the reality is West Yorkshire has managed to support two real Superleague clubs. Now they have one.

 

Getting Bradford back on track and getting one club in the Calder area where reality shows there's enough good young players to stock a Superleague team and 20,000 fans, enough to sustain one club even if half jump ship hankering after the past.

 

Five SL clubs is Fairyland. One is reality, three would take a strong will and good planning. 2/12/3/8 is not that it's a weak cop out and no plan at all.

 

E mail the RFL and ask them. There are 5 SL clubs in West Yorkshire whether you like it or not.