The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Why does every thread end up talking about Yorkshire, Yorkshire clubs and average attendances, etc?     Re-structure of the league is the subject!!!

 

Sorry about that.

[keighley]

League is a sport IMO that many young people look on as "It's never really caught on " It's understanable, They have never seen Fev at Wembley, never saw Wigan and Hull put on the super show, they look around and see Football going loony with money, Union awash with it , and filling stadia for internationals, just about every sport seems to be going forward except League, which is a yearly story of clubs going down the pan, or barely surviving,

 

We do not project the right image, We do not have the right people running the game, we do not get our share of what's going from sponsers etc, On the field we are second to none, Off it we are also rans.

 

Last time i read anything about it Viewing figures for League were better than for Union, Who gets most TV money ?,  Just my opinion of course , but none of this has anything at all to do with formats, it has to do with people.

 

To be fair, we filled a lot of stadia for internationals only two months ago.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

It's a good argument.

 

Leeds can manage to find 15,000 fans and 22 Leeds born professionals so they manage to sustain a competitive Super League club.

 

Bradford can manage 15,000 fans and were late to the quality academy system but started to turn them out sadly due to financial difficulties they have had to sell these lads on, Burgess, Whitehead, Bateman , Kopczak etc.

 

So the reality is West Yorkshire has managed to support two real Superleague clubs. Now they have one.

 

Getting Bradford back on track and getting one club in the Calder area where reality shows there's enough good young players to stock a Superleague team and 20,000 fans, enough to sustain one club even if half jump ship hankering after the past.

 

Five SL clubs is Fairyland. One is reality, three would take a strong will and good planning. 2/12/3/8 is not that it's a weak cop out and no plan at all.

 

 

I agree in general with most of what you have posted on this thread, and i agree about there being to many clubs in west Y, however due to the difficulties of expansion we have to have enough clubs to run an elite comp.

 

It seems to me that you judge a club as a true SL if it gets a crowd average of say 15,000 fans, I can see your way of thinking that may make a club self sustaining, that may be true. Myself i don't care whether they are self sustaining or not, I am bothered about whether they can compete or not and if they are good to watch ,Either live or on TV,

 

I can see there may be trouble down the line for all clubs who are depending on people putting money in to keep them up there, We have to wait and see about that,

 

For the time being we need 12 SL clubs real or otherwise to deliver to Sky, The ones that you seem to consider real at the moment seem to me to amount to 2, with 2/3 others getting there,

 

For me the days of big big crowds will probably never come back , other than for a very few clubs, They are a huge bonus without doubt, but the game is about money, wherever it comes from, Or more accurately in League the lack of it. 

[GIANTSTRIDES]

To be fair, we filled a lot of stadia for internationals only two months ago.

 

Yes we did and it was the best for many a year I agree.

 

My real point was that Union do it every year with an inferior game and they have all the right people in place to make sure everybody knows it.

[keighley]

Yes we did and it was the best for many a year I agree.

 

My real point was that Union do it every year with an inferior game and they have all the right people in place to make sure everybody knows it.

 

Union have been trying to wring the neck of the RL chicken since 1895. They have not succeeded yet. As Winston Churchill said "some chicken, some neck ".

Despite all the known advantages of establishment support and top level aid and discriminatory practices, RL is still here. It has conquered Australia it is on the rise in New Zealand, it is spreading like the rising tide in the UK, it is rising like a Phoenix from the ashes in France and setting down increasingly strong and widespread roots in fertile soil from South Africa to continental Europe to the middle east and north America and the Pacific Islands.

 

Top level union is all but dead in our English RL heartlands. Their game is as marginalised in this country as ours. Despite RU's successes it has  serious problems of over spending by it's clubs and divisions at club level over Europe and the celtic nations are well upset with their treatment by England.

 

Our recent World Cup was well received by the general public.

 

I think Mr Murdoch, The Australian TV networks and the BBC  are well pleased with the viewing figures for RL.

 

As always our game is in various sorts of crisis but I am cautiously optimistic.

 

I don't like the 3 x 8 format but yet I wish it well. It will be new and precedent setting.

[The Parksider]

I agree in general with most of what you have posted on this thread, and i agree about there being to many clubs in west Y, however due to the difficulties of expansion we have to have enough clubs to run an elite comp.

 

It seems to me that you judge a club as a true SL if it gets a crowd average of say 15,000 fans, I can see your way of thinking that may make a club self sustaining, that may be true. Myself i don't care whether they are self sustaining or not, I am bothered about whether they can compete or not and if they are good to watch ,Either live or on TV,

 

I can see there may be trouble down the line for all clubs who are depending on people putting money in to keep them up there, We have to wait and see about that,

 

For the time being we need 12 SL clubs real or otherwise to deliver to Sky, The ones that you seem to consider real at the moment seem to me to amount to 2, with 2/3 others getting there,

 

The chairmen themselves have come out and stated their crowd averages needed to run a club with sustainability. None of them said 15,000. In  good stadium with facilities that up the take per head 8,000 was the figure e.g Salford, for older stadium 10,000 was the figure e.g. Bradford.It's worth actually noting what they say.

 

Nobody has said 12 is the right figure, it's a reduction to 12, 10 is a figure some people in the game support. You may not care that some "super" clubs are nothing but a rich man throwing £Millions into a half empty stadium and non functioning Academy, but I believe that fans and professional players are somehow the lifeblood of a vibrant game. Don't you??

 

The multi-millionaire skews the game as it is currently structured, hence your club with respect literally can't attract half the fans Bradford can, and it is said has no regard for Junior development. When the clubs were trying to keep Bradford afloat with the player transfer embargo who broke that? Huddersfield of course.

 

I love Fartown and had a walk around the old ground the other week (the two old turnstyles are gone now), I have been countless time and stood there in the lowest crowd ever when they used it to play out a late season Trafford.v.Nottingham game. I don't have it in for your club or any club, but a choice between the Bradford of a few years ago and Fartown today is a no brainer but economic reality and a cowardly decision on restructuring is forcing that choice.

Edited January 29, 2014 by The Parksider

[Steve May]

Going back to Fartowns last really good days, people would go to watch Fartown one week, Town the next, whether people carn't afford these days i don't know.

A much more likely reason is the complete lack of anything that can be remotely regarded as success, for fifty years. They are having to grow a whole new set of Fans.

 

 

It's rather boring to have to revisit the Giants crowd situation every ten minutes, but nonetheless.

 

You're spot on.   The club had atrophied to the point where there were perhaps 200 regular attendees at games.    Right now, a whole new generation of fans is having to be built up literally from nowhere.

 

The scale of Ken Davy's achievement at the Giants needs to be thought of in terms of Hunslet or Swinton being resurrected from the near-dead to go and top the table.

[Steve May]

Yes we did and it was the best for many a year I agree.

 

My real point was that Union do it every year with an inferior game and they have all the right people in place to make sure everybody knows it.

 

Union is not an inferior game.  It's a different game.   I don't like it much myself but if I had been born in Northampton I'd probably love it.

[Griff]

Going back to Fartowns last really good days, people would go to watch Fartown one week, Town the next, whether people can't afford these days i don't know.

 

Given that we now play in summer, this is surely more of a lame excuse than a genuine explanation .

 

It's not just soccer - there are many more other things for people to do with leisure time these days.  On top of that, fewer and fewer people seem to be working traditional 9-5 days.  TV gives us access to the pinnacle of the sport from the comfort of our armchairs - both in the UK and abroad (the sports, that is, not the armchairs).  All these reasons - and others - are factors without any one being the sole reason.

 

At some point in the future - many years ahead - I do see sport below the highest level reverting to its amateur roots, where the motivation is people wanting to entertain themselves, rather than others.

[Griff]

under thirties are spending all their wages on mortgage/rent the oldies are benefitting from this as their propertys have been inflated greatly, oldies are drawing pensions as well as working past retirement age. ..

 

Maybe their pensions aren't as good as you think, then.

[Griff]

Union is not an inferior game.

 

I don't understand your point here.

[The Parksider]

1. It's rather boring to have to revisit the Giants crowd situation every ten minutes,

 

2. You're spot on.   The club had atrophied to the point where there were perhaps 200 regular attendees at games.    Right now, a whole new generation of fans is having to be built up literally from nowhere.

 

3. The scale of Ken Davy's achievement at the Giants needs to be thought of in terms of Hunslet or Swinton being resurrected from the near-dead to go and top the table.

 

1. Try being told 1,000 times how Leigh will fly in SL, how Featherstone will produce whole teams from their academy and Sheffield are so well managed it's time for Superleague. Now that is boring.

 

2. He's not spot on, it's 25 years since Huddersfield averaged crowds below 1,000?

 

3. The scale of Ken Davey's achievements are fabulous if your one of the 6,368 fans who support them. Outside of that he's not interested in junior developent, and is happy to snatch players from Bradford which assists their demise.

 

Uncle Ken gets less fans into Fartown than he did six years ago

 

Is Ken doing Superleague a favour by replacing Bradford with Fartown in SL?? I suspect Ken is doing Mrs. Davey a favour.....

 

Should we rejoice if Koucash decides to outbid Wigan for their players and put them in the Swinton team? If I win the lottery will it do the game a favour if I build Hunslet a 10K stadium and chase Leeds players??

Edited January 29, 2014 by The Parksider

[redjonn]

Given that we now play in summer, this is surely more of a lame excuse than a genuine explanation .

 

It's not just soccer - there are many more other things for people to do with leisure time these days.  On top of that, fewer and fewer people seem to be working traditional 9-5 days.  TV gives us access to the pinnacle of the sport from the comfort of our armchairs - both in the UK and abroad (the sports, that is, not the armchairs).  All these reasons - and others - are factors without any one being the sole reason.

 

At some point in the future - many years ahead - I do see sport below the highest level reverting to its amateur roots, where the motivation is people wanting to entertain themselves, rather than others.

 

Fair points, this latest discussion followed on from imho simplistic view that because it was a soccer town as the reason for struggle for attendance. This sometimes seems to me to distract from a better analysis and then a more focused attempts at improving.  I agree there are many factors.

 

Take premiership football, they have seen a 10% drop in away support. The central body have given each premiership club £200,000 to spend to improve travelling support. Some clubs using it to provide free travel, subsidized away ticket prices which ties in the the supporters "twenty is plenty away tickets campaign...  The point being good analysis and focused action.

 

Good marketing (not just promotion) should be a key focus area and deserves more attention than league restructuring, unless that is the marketing department are the one's through good analysis driving the need for the restructuring. I don't get any sense that the RFL are a marketing led body as any good business should be.

Edited January 29, 2014 by redjonn

[Steve May]

1. Try being told 1,000 times how Leigh will fly in SL, how Featherstone will produce whole teams from their academy and Sheffield are so well managed it's time for Superleague. Now that is boring.

 

2. He's not spot on, it's 25 years since Huddersfield averaged crowds below 1,000?

 

3. The scale of Ken Davey's achievements are fabulous if your one of the 6,368 fans who support them. Outside of that he's not interested in junior developent, and is happy to snatch players from Bradford which assists their demise.

 

Uncle Ken gets less fans into Fartown than he did six years ago

 

Is Ken doing Superleague a favour by replacing Bradford with Fartown in SL?? I suspect Ken is doing Mrs. Davey a favour.....

 

Should we rejoice if Koucash decides to outbid Wigan for their players and put them in the Swinton team? If I win the lottery will it do the game a favour if I build Hunslet a 10K stadium and chase Leeds players??

 

1.  God, you're right.

 

2.  Yes, but it's been a very bumpy ride since then.   Can of worms, leave it closed.

 

3.  Not interested in junior development?  I'll ponder that next time Leroy Cudjoe passes the ball to Jermaine McGilvary.   As for snatching players - have a look at some of the club sides in the 80s.   If Huddersfield had actually been able to keep hold of all the local players at that time they'd have been in the top 4 every year.  For a start, you'd have Henderson Gill and Wilf George on the wings.  How is it that the player with the most SL appearances is from Huddersfield but never played for Huddersfield? - What goes around comes around on that one.  Huddersfield are in the ascendancy over Bradford, so they get the pick of Bradford's players.  

 

And as for Uncle Ken and the attendazzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.  Sorry.  Nodded off.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Steve May

[sweaty craiq]

1. Try being told 1,000 times how Leigh will fly in SL, how Featherstone will produce whole teams from their academy and Sheffield are so well managed it's time for Superleague. Now that is boring.

 

2. He's not spot on, it's 25 years since Huddersfield averaged crowds below 1,000?

 

3. The scale of Ken Davey's achievements are fabulous if your one of the 6,368 fans who support them. Outside of that he's not interested in junior developent, and is happy to snatch players from Bradford which assists their demise.

 

Uncle Ken gets less fans into Fartown than he did six years ago

 

Is Ken doing Superleague a favour by replacing Bradford with Fartown in SL?? I suspect Ken is doing Mrs. Davey a favour.....

 

Should we rejoice if Koucash decides to outbid Wigan for their players and put them in the Swinton team? If I win the lottery will it do the game a favour if I build Hunslet a 10K stadium and chase Leeds players??

 

Good post Parky

I long for the day all we talk about is Rugby, lets get the framework to grow the sport - any business picks its low hanging fruit first, they are the quick wins to strengthen our sport.

We must have unity, we must give all fans hope and the ability to dream, we must produce more professional players, we must 'win' an international comp, we must develop France, we must provide the support and infrastructure to expand within the UK and we must expand our playing pool accordingly.

No club should be guaranteed a spot at the table, it must be earned then justified

We have a fantastic future if we play on our pitch to our strengths, then as we develop our strengths will change and our strategy with them

[jpmc]

It's rather boring to have to revisit the Giants crowd situation every ten minutes, but nonetheless.

 

You're spot on.   The club had atrophied to the point where there were perhaps 200 regular attendees at games.    Right now, a whole new generation of fans is having to be built up literally from nowhere.

 

The scale of Ken Davy's achievement at the Giants needs to be thought of in terms of Hunslet or Swinton being resurrected from the near-dead to go and top the table.

Population of Swinton is what?

Population of Hunlet is what?

Population of Huddersfield is what?

Swinton is just a suburb of Salford now & Hunslet is a suburb of Leeds.

Huddersfield is a suburb of ?

[The Parksider]

Not interested in junior development?  I'll ponder that next time Leroy Cudjoe passes the ball to Jermaine McGilvary.   As for snatching players - have a look at some of the club sides in the 80s.   If Huddersfield had actually been able to keep hold of all the local players at that time they'd have been in the top 4 every year. What goes around comes around on that one.  Huddersfield are in the ascendancy over Bradford, so they get the pick of Bradford's players.  

 

This isn't the Steve May I used to know on here giving up on 3 of the four points? Anyway welcome back...

 

Your argument on the academy went back to the 1980's for some obscure reason and nobody said Huddersfield don't field a few Huddersfield lads in any event Steve. The fact is the Fartown Academy scores a "needs improvement" third rate, and when you have such a rich owner it begs the question is he bothered. I'd say no. The rumour is he takes the view why spend money developing players when you can just go out and buy them ready made.

 

Your "Ascedancy" point is a yah boo we have the money now one.

 

This is the problem with all these clubs crammed together fighting for the same resources. One minute one has the money and the other is depressed, then next they go bust and the other gets the ascendency and the musical chairs of failure goes on whilst the big four get on with tidying up on the cups that matter.

 

I'm just waiting for Hull to go bust so HKR can be on the up, Featherstone to buy up Cas players and send them bust, and Halifax to move in once Davey goes.

 

This is what is exciting about the boom and bust world of traditional Rugby league, long may it reign - well for a few years yet.......

[The Parksider]

Population of Swinton is what?

Population of Hunslet is what?

Population of Huddersfield is what?

 

1. 34,000

2. 18,000

3. 146,000

[keighley]

1. Try being told 1,000 times how Leigh will fly in SL, how Featherstone will produce whole teams from their academy and Sheffield are so well managed it's time for Superleague. Now that is boring.

 

2. He's not spot on, it's 25 years since Huddersfield averaged crowds below 1,000?

 

3. The scale of Ken Davey's achievements are fabulous if your one of the 6,368 fans who support them. Outside of that he's not interested in junior developent, and is happy to snatch players from Bradford which assists their demise.

 

Uncle Ken gets less fans into Fartown than he did six years ago

 

Is Ken doing Superleague a favour by replacing Bradford with Fartown in SL?? I suspect Ken is doing Mrs. Davey a favour.....

 

Should we rejoice if Koucash decides to outbid Wigan for their players and put them in the Swinton team? If I win the lottery will it do the game a favour if I build Hunslet a 10K stadium and chase Leeds players??

 

1. Yes. It's boring. Time to give the game a proper p and system and let those clubs see if they can justify their claims.

 

2. In 25 years Huddersfield have gone from 1,000 to 6,000. In that 25 years London have gone from 700 to 1800. Bradford have gone from boom to bust (several times) and their gates have halved from their high point. Huddersfield are a top club with an investor, London are a bottom club with an investor. Bradford are a train wreck without an investor. Why pick on Huddersfield.

 

3. A good segment of the England team are Huddersfield produced players and those said players propelled Huddersfield to the top of the league. The Huddersfield player development system is obviously not a lost cause despite the ratings given to it.

 

Looking at the state of Bradford vis a vis Huddersfield, yes he is doing the game a favour supplanting the Bulls. It's the Bulls fault that they are in the position they are and there is no blame to be attached to Huddersfield. The game would be better off with both clubs strong and successful but it's up to Bradford to regain that state. 

 

If Khoukash buys Wigan players and produces his own and get Salford to a top position playing before 10,000 crowds of course it's good for he game. It's alright for Wigan and Leeds to do the same for years but once someone from outside he cabal starts to emulate that behaviour it's bad

 

If you or any other ambitious entrepreneur with a wad of cash wanted to build Hunslet a top class stadium and develop a top team in Leeds to rival the Rhinos of course it would be good. The more top level stable teams we have the better. It works in Hull, it works in Widnes/Warrington, it works in St.Helens/Wigan. It should work in Leeds. If London Broncos revive it would be great if Skolars could join them at the top level. Rivalry and competition in local areas creates rivalry and can benefit both teams.  

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Given that we now play in summer, this is surely more of a lame excuse than a genuine explanation .

 

It's not just soccer - there are many more other things for people to do with leisure time these days.  On top of that, fewer and fewer people seem to be working traditional 9-5 days.  TV gives us access to the pinnacle of the sport from the comfort of our armchairs - both in the UK and abroad (the sports, that is, not the armchairs).  All these reasons - and others - are factors without any one being the sole reason.

 

At some point in the future - many years ahead - I do see sport below the highest level reverting to its amateur roots, where the motivation is people wanting to entertain themselves, rather than others.

 

It is one possible explanation, I don't feel any need to make excuses, lame or otherwise, There will be others as your post suggests, If there are 22.000 sports fans going to games in Huddersfield and 2/3rds of them go to football, what does that tell you.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

I don't understand your point here.

 

His point is that Union is only an inferior game if you are a league fan, I said that from a die hard league  point of view,  To people ( like my Son in law ) and many more, League is the inferior game.

[Steve May]

This isn't the Steve May I used to know on here giving up on 3 of the four points? Anyway welcome back...

 

Your argument on the academy went back to the 1980's for some obscure reason and nobody said Huddersfield don't field a few Huddersfield lads in any event Steve. The fact is the Fartown Academy scores a "needs improvement" third rate, and when you have such a rich owner it begs the question is he bothered. I'd say no. The rumour is he takes the view why spend money developing players when you can just go out and buy them ready made.

 

Your "Ascedancy" point is a yah boo we have the money now one.

 

The Academy argument goes back to the 80s because in the 80s all the good Huddersfield lads ended up playing for Bradford, Halifax and even Wigan.  Nowadays, the good Halifax and, increasingly, Bradford lads end up playing for Huddersfield.  Swings and roundabouts.   The ascendency point isn't "yah boo", it's actually pointing out that when the boot was on the other foot, those clubs wasted no time in sticking it in.  What goes around comes around.

 

In terms of the Huddersfield Academy, I don't know what Ken Davy thinks about it.  Maybe you're right and he doesn't care.  Then again, the Giants first choice 17 has 4 Huddersfield Academy products in it - 2 of whom are England regulars who've never played for anyone else.    Sure, I'd like that to be 10 players, but 4 ain't bad and especially ain't bad when two of those are Leroy Cudjoe and Eorl Crabtree.      And then again, when the 20 man England Academy squad was announced last autumn it had more Huddersfield players (three) in it than any other club bar Wigan.  And just for fun, one of the two Wire Academy players selected came from Meltham All Blacks in Huddersfield. 

 

As for it needing improvement, I don't know what the criteria for that is.  I'll tell you what though, in the league last year the Giants U19s finished 5th.  Above the likes of those mighty rugby league nurseries Hull and Wakefield.     Personally, I don't think U19 results tell you a lot, but it's still there in black and white.

[Griff]

His point is that Union is only an inferior game if you are a league fan,

 

Precisely what I didn't understand.  Doesn't matter what sort of fan you are, Union is an inferior game.  If you're a Union fan, just front up and be honest about it.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

1. Try being told 1,000 times how Leigh will fly in SL, how Featherstone will produce whole teams from their academy and Sheffield are so well managed it's time for Superleague. Now that is boring.

 

2. He's not spot on, it's 25 years since Huddersfield averaged crowds below 1,000?

 

3. The scale of Ken Davey's achievements are fabulous if your one of the 6,368 fans who support them. Outside of that he's not interested in junior developent, and is happy to snatch players from Bradford which assists their demise.

 

Uncle Ken gets less fans into Fartown than he did six years ago

 

Is Ken doing Superleague a favour by replacing Bradford with Fartown in SL?? I suspect Ken is doing Mrs. Davey a favour.....

 

Should we rejoice if Koucash decides to outbid Wigan for their players and put them in the Swinton team? If I win the lottery will it do the game a favour if I build Hunslet a 10K stadium and chase Leeds players??

 

 

1  Not particularly boring IMO, more unrealistic.

 

2 Does it matter , the point is they are growing overall, N Browns first season i think the average was 8.000.

 

3 Would be fabulous to do what Leeds Wigan do, But we have some good ones, Not enough True.

 

I loved watching Bradford when they were at the top and would be happy to see them good again, What do you think about the players who got them up there, As i remember  most of the team were N Z players, and it eventually cost them dear, because they were obviously spending money they didn't have to spend, you can't say the same of KD can you.

 I don't remember Bradford producing that many players in those days, they would pick up good players wherever they could , just like Fartown today, At the moment they are where we were a few years ago, having to let players go to survive. Hopefully that won't last.

 

If there is one club you don't need to worry about It's Wigan, If the good Doc outbids them good luck to him, Wigan will produce more from somewhere, and anything that helps make Salford into a top club is good with me, And i would absolutely love it if a big money man stepped in at Hunslet.

 

It would be great to see Stadiums full again, ( we hold ourselves in readiness for it ) until such times are upon us we have to go with what we have, that is the reality, I don't know why these money men pick the clubs they do,( I make no excuse for Fartown taking Bradfords place with a less fan base), maybe you could talk one of them into changing clubs.

 

Bradford will be back, I have no doubt about that, they have proved they can get the people in, and they can, if they get it right survive without a money man. Wakey are another club who could be big again, But as we know the days when W/Y could support all these teams are gone , Other than by way of rich owners, And as i said i don't care where Salfords ( or anybody elses ) money comes from, As long as they are a good side that will do me.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Precisely what I didn't understand.  Doesn't matter what sort of fan you are, Union is an inferior game.  If you're a Union fan, just front up and be honest about it.

 

  Have to say i like your style. Could you organize a team to go and convert  some of the full stadiums at the 6 Nations,