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The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)


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mmmmmmmmmmmm

Edited by Padge

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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007

Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.

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I'll assume you have no answer to the Bradford bit.

 

it's answered, Bradford would do very well if they were the only SL club in their region.

 

Huddersfield would do very well if they were the only SL club in their region.

 

But Bradford's record on fans and player development is much bigger.

 

However the weight of small town club fans opinions is such Bradford will be no more soon, as they are apparently going to go on shrinking and losing £Millions....

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how many clubs were ruined under P&R?

None due to P&R. All clubs who went down under P&R are still with us (bar Blackpool and Carlisle and this was much later than they were relegated). If "ruined" means nearly went bust then this has nearly always been down to bad management, and in sone rare cases, bad luck (i.e. A single benefactors business goes under).

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it's answered, Bradford would do very well if they were the only SL club in their region.

 

Huddersfield would do very well if they were the only SL club in their region.

 

But Bradford's record on fans and player development is much bigger.

 

However the weight of small town club fans opinions is such Bradford will be no more soon, as they are apparently going to go on shrinking and losing £Millions....

 

So when they were the only SL club of any worth in the area and drawing their 20.000 crowds, With a team full of N Zealanders, and very successful, How did they end up where they are now.

As far as i can see the only difference is that they were buying in players they couldn't afford, whereas Salford will be buying in players they can well afford.

 

Why would Huddersfield do well if they were the only club in the region, You have heard people state on here time and time again, They would pack in before watch another club, so where are Hudderfield to get these fans from , that will make them do very well.

 

Truth is Parky that League is a business like any other, If you cant produce the raw material in your area ,you get it in from an area where they have a surplus, It doesn't stop you from trying to improve. as long as you are competitive what more do you want. I agree big crowds are a big bonus, and it would be nice to be like Wigan, but if you are going to get rid of everyone who falls short of that, well down the road go Saints Wolves widnes , and Salford. 

 

In West yorkshire everyone bar Leeds would have to go, And with Bradfords demise in recent seasons why haven't Leeds been surging even further ahead

Dont expect anything from a pig but a grunt

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So when they were the only SL club of any worth in the area and drawing their 20.000 crowds, With a team full of N Zealanders, and very successful, How did they end up where they are now.

 

Why would Huddersfield do well if they were the only club in the region, You have heard people state on here time and time again, They would pack in before watch another club, so where are Hudderfield to get these fans from , that will make them do very well.

 

Truth is Parky that League is a business like any other, If you cant produce the raw material in your area ,you get it in from an area where they have a surplus, It doesn't stop you from trying to improve. as long as you are competitive what more do you want. I agree big crowds are a big bonus, and it would be nice to be like Wigan, but if you are going to get rid of everyone who falls short of that, well down the road go Saints Wolves widnes , and Salford. 

 

In West yorkshire everyone bar Leeds would have to go, And with Bradfords demise in recent seasons why haven't Leeds been surging even further ahead

 

Bradford's demise was well documented, they didn't have money man, stretched themselves financially made a big mistake with the Harris saga made a big mistake with the cheap season tickets, the old ground was a millstone and they tipped over the edge. You can paint that as carefree heavy overspending if you want.

 

It may also suit you to join the small number of "we would pack in" merchants "rather than watch another club". Those who say nobody from Halifax watches Bradford, nobody from Huddersfield was born anywhere but Huddersfield, and Bradford people don't go outside their town boundaries. It's like the Hull/HKR argument where nobody will watch Hull from East Hull and will all turn to soccer if Rovers packed in.

 

Make something up and then use it as an argument. In soccer and RL audiences come from far and wide and local loyalties have declined massively.

 

People want top class RL the world cup told you that, unless you also subscribe to the silly world cup argument that the 9.000 at Rochdale for te Fiji game were all from Rochdale.

 

If you haven't the players but have the money in Soccer you can do what Manchester City do, import and the quality player base of the premiership becomes international class and stadia pack out. In RL where there are no real surpluses that's why SL is shrinking you can sign them off another club and deplete them instead.

 

Your next illogical argument that if you leave a club out of SL because it doesn't add enough to it you may as well leave them all out. It's the same simplistic nonsense that you should not have mergers because inevitably you'll have to merge Wigan and Saints. Well you just won't.

 

Another unsound argument is that the game has to keep all it's "core" fans happy ignoring the thousands who may come to matches if there's something exciting on offer. Thousands did go to Bulls thousands don't go to Fartown. My point remains that the game need one club per region to swallow as much resources as they can to increase the number of big attractive clubs.

 

They don't have to get 20,000, they just need to break even. The sticking point though is the quality of players, not enough are being produced, we have duff academies where it's easier to just buy someone else's players, and that's a big problem. What if all the chairmen decided to do that?

 

I await to see how the Marwan Koucash way goes next year at the Manchester City of Rugby League.

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I thought it had been changed to what goes on, on the pitch. .. (what youve been moaning about for sooooo long!!)

 

Noooooooooooooooo, I haven't.    I've always accepted that there would have to be minimum standards of some sort and have constantly said that Sheffield doooooooooooooon't have the crowds for $uperleague.

 

You're confusing me with someone else.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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The figures I quoted were the ones presented to the meeting of Super League clubs last Wednesday, so they presumably superseded any figures from a previous document.

 

The Championship clubs meet on 14 February, and the figures may conceivably have changed again by then.

 

 

And, by first in the Championship, do we mean Grand Final winners or Table Toppers ?

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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And this, as far as I am concerned is the problem with our sport 

"I await to see how the Marwan Koucash way goes next year at the Manchester City of Rugby League." Oh, dear!

This is hardly the expression of someone excited about the sport, the new season or the interesting ingredients that the Red Devils will bring to the recipe no it's assuming it will all end in tears and it may do. But I just think that if the only thing that catches your attention is the crashes and disasters maybe you'd be better off watching a motor sport! I left the person's name off here cos this is not NOT a personal attack just dismay at the way people look at TGG!

As far as the new structure is concerned maybe it's just what a few sports need very badly not only RL.

The trouble is there is simply too much contradictory and confusing information and evidence added to personal agendas and bugbears that it is impossible either to see the truth or make any kind of informed picture of events and their implications. If you made a list of all the things the RFL are trying to fit together with this maybe we'd get a better idea about the reality of the situation.

PS only 3 more sleeps!!!!!!!

Edited by Oxford

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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 If you made a list of all the things the RFL are trying to fit together with this maybe we'd get a better idea about the reality of the situation.

 

The reality of the situation is that we need to resolve the finances of the sport before the structures.

 

This solution merely moves the dividing lines elsewhere.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Right I am now very confused.

The last sky deal was £90m over 5 years, the current one is £200m over 5 years - is that correct?

 

If so, the funding figures quoted above equate to £27m pa, do we have a plan for the remaining £13m pa plus other income?

 

I was told the top 4 in this years championship got from £500k-£650k, thus ensuring 50% of the league would be full time with a real battle for the top 4 and hence mid 8

 

I am totally behind centrally funded academies for the non producing clubs and advocate central funding for the England players to build club england and promote Youth at SL clubs, but I cant get my head around these numbers - have they been officially quoted by the RFL?

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Right I am now very confused.

The last sky deal was £90m over 5 years, the current one is £200m over 5 years - is that correct?

 

If so, the funding figures quoted above equate to £27m pa, do we have a plan for the remaining £13m pa plus other income?

 

I was told the top 4 in this years championship got from £500k-£650k, thus ensuring 50% of the league would be full time with a real battle for the top 4 and hence mid 8

 

I am totally behind centrally funded academies for the non producing clubs and advocate central funding for the England players to build club england and promote Youth at SL clubs, but I cant get my head around these numbers - have they been officially quoted by the RFL?

 

The figures quoted in July and October were never going to be final.  They were always what the RFL described as "indicative" and were to be revised once the TV deal was settled.

 

The way it's shared out may yet be changed.

Edited by Griff

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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Griff

"This solution merely moves the dividing lines elsewhere. "

I'm afraid that needs a bit more evidence to support it as a statement and there are a lot of statements like this being banded about.

I just don't see everything in terms of who killed Kennedy? Who was on the grassy knoll? Who was the umbrella man? And why did LBJ jump to the floor before the shooting began? The RFL are not buffoons or villains even when they get it wrong! Marwan Koukash is not the saviour of the world but he does display some very interesting possibilities that have been missing for a long time in our sport! He also has not deserved the kind of reaction he has received at the hands of posters/fans and pundits. I don't want to spend all my time picking over little details in order to prove something or other that wasn't very interesting in the first place and secondly won't come anywhere near the truth because like Kennedy it's a riddle wrapped in an enigma shrouded in a mystery! And the new structure maybe turn out to be the answer!

 

But the New Season's Here! 80 minutes TGG reaching the parts other sports can only dream of! :bye: 

2 warning points:kolobok_dirol:  Non-Political

 

 

 

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Griff
"This solution merely moves the dividing lines elsewhere. "
I'm afraid that needs a bit more evidence to support it as a statement and there are a lot of statements like this being banded about.

 

For evidence, look no further than the prize money structure.

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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None due to P&R. All clubs who went down under P&R are still with us (bar Blackpool and Carlisle and this was much later than they were relegated). If "ruined" means nearly went bust then this has nearly always been down to bad management, and in sone rare cases, bad luck (i.e. A single benefactors business goes under).

Or even as sacrificial lambs!!!

(Read my signature)

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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And, by first in the Championship, do we mean Grand Final winners or Table Toppers ?

It has to be table toppers Griff as these figures are also to be used from 2015 onwards when the top 4 go on to meet the bottom 4 SL clubs with the only play-off for Championship clubs being the 5th to 12th teams for the Championship Shield.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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It has to be table toppers Griff as these figures are also to be used from 2015 onwards when the top 4 go on to meet the bottom 4 SL clubs with the only play-off for Championship clubs being the 5th to 12th teams for the Championship Shield.

 

Well, that's unusually forward-looking of us - planning for 2015.

 

Right - so what's the Grand Final Play-off series for ?

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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The top 4 of the top 8 play-off for the SL title. The 5th -12th Championship teams play-off for the Championship Shield and the middle 8 don't have a play-off just a place in SL!!!!!

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.

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And this, as far as I am concerned is the problem with our sport 

"I await to see how the Marwan Koucash way goes next year at the Manchester City of Rugby League." Oh, dear!

This is hardly the expression of someone excited about the sport, the new season or the interesting ingredients that the Red Devils will bring to the recipe no it's assuming it will all end in tears

Sadly you've posted nonsense, and what's more you only had to ask me direct.

I'll be following Superleague on a season ticket at one club, visiting Bulls, farts, Wakey and cas as always, wathcing all TV games, enjoying the debates on here whilst annoying people, enjoying the politics of the game and watching the rise of some clubs and personalities and the inevitable falls of others.

I'll be in my 50th. year of loving this great game.

I was down watching LMU in the RL cup saturday, great game great club.

Yes I believe the salford soap opera will not have a great ending but then again soap operas need some light and shade to be interesting and good viewing.

Yes I believe the new structure is pants but so what. It'll be fun seeing if some of us are right or if the others are wrong. Once it's chucked out I reckon a fantastic new structure will come in, can't wait for this year? I can't wait for any year with R.L. in it.

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The top 4 of the top 8 play-off for the SL title. The 5th -12th Championship teams play-off for the Championship Shield and the middle 8 don't have a play-off just a place in SL!!!!!

 

That's 2015, Keith.

 

What's the Championship (for Dave's benefit) Grand Final Series for in 2014 ?  Some sort of sideshow ?

"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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