The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)

[Griff]

Don't worry about it Griff, you won't win it anyway

 

We'll see .......

[bobbruce]

Right I am now very confused.

The last sky deal was £90m over 5 years, the current one is £200m over 5 years - is that correct?

I though the current deal was for £127m.

[Terry Mullaney]

That's 2015, Keith.

 

What's the Championship (for Dave's benefit) Grand Final Series for in 2014 ?  Some sort of sideshow ?

I'd say it will be just as meaningful this year as any other Griff with a trophy and cash prize and sod all else.

[Griff]

I'd say it will be just as meaningful this year as any other Griff with a trophy and cash prize and sod all else.

 

Bit like $uperleague then, Terry.

[Terry Mullaney]

Bit like $uperleague then, Terry.

Well, in a way, but you can't get any higher than the pinnacle of your chosen sport..

[GIANTSTRIDES]

Bradford's demise was well documented, they didn't have money man, stretched themselves financially made a big mistake with the Harris saga made a big mistake with the cheap season tickets, the old ground was a millstone and they tipped over the edge. You can paint that as carefree heavy overspending if you want.

 

It may also suit you to join the small number of "we would pack in" merchants "rather than watch another club". Those who say nobody from Halifax watches Bradford, nobody from Huddersfield was born anywhere but Huddersfield, and Bradford people don't go outside their town boundaries. It's like the Hull/HKR argument where nobody will watch Hull from East Hull and will all turn to soccer if Rovers packed in.

 

Make something up and then use it as an argument. In soccer and RL audiences come from far and wide and local loyalties have declined massively.

 

People want top class RL the world cup told you that, unless you also subscribe to the silly world cup argument that the 9.000 at Rochdale for te Fiji game were all from Rochdale.

 

If you haven't the players but have the money in Soccer you can do what Manchester City do, import and the quality player base of the premiership becomes international class and stadia pack out. In RL where there are no real surpluses that's why SL is shrinking you can sign them off another club and deplete them instead.

 

Your next illogical argument that if you leave a club out of SL because it doesn't add enough to it you may as well leave them all out. It's the same simplistic nonsense that you should not have mergers because inevitably you'll have to merge Wigan and Saints. Well you just won't.

 

Another unsound argument is that the game has to keep all it's "core" fans happy ignoring the thousands who may come to matches if there's something exciting on offer. Thousands did go to Bulls thousands don't go to Fartown. My point remains that the game need one club per region to swallow as much resources as they can to increase the number of big attractive clubs.

 

They don't have to get 20,000, they just need to break even. The sticking point though is the quality of players, not enough are being produced, we have duff academies where it's easier to just buy someone else's players, and that's a big problem. What if all the chairmen decided to do that?

 

I await to see how the Marwan Koucash way goes next year at the Manchester City of Rugby League.

 

 

Bradford's demise was well documented, they didn't have money man, stretched themselves financially made a big mistake with the Harris saga made a big mistake with the cheap season tickets, the old ground was a millstone and they tipped over the edge. You can paint that as carefree heavy overspending if you want

 

 

 

So what's changed, Saying It's well documented cut's nothing, They will be still playing at Odsal, and there is no guarantee the rest wont happen again. as can happen at most clubs.

 

I don't think Bradford " nor do i want them to" will disapear, They have shown their worth in the past, But i don't believe if Hudd's /Fax disapeared tommorrow It would affect the bulls much at all,  It wouldn't give them a new ground, ( prob their worst problem ) and when people say they wouldn't go to watch another club, I believe them, I don't feel that way myself, but there you go.

 

I believe eventually there will have to be less clubs, Which those clubs will be I don't know, i have my opinions , but It wont be the ones without any money.

 

The world cup was a great success i agree, So are the 6 nations , Does that mean everyone wants top class Union. And quoting stuff about Soccer is wasted on me, I know nothing about it, other than there seems to be a lot of overseas players.

 

I have never advocated the merger of Wigan and Saints, You and I both know that, You just want to impose one set or your rules for some clubs , but a different set for others,  That's not how things tend to work, as in everthing else in life ,The fittest tend to  survive, You might not like that , but you won't influence it.

 

When we eventually finish up with the best clubs available in SL  ( Whoever they are, including hopefully some expansion clubs ) That will be great, But untill we get there we have to go with what we have,  and what we have is 2x12  3x8  It's not what i would have chosen , Or you, But we don't get a say do we, we don't invest millions, We get to put our opinions on here, and on this i suspect we will never agree, so we will have to agree to differ

[Oxford]

I know the title of all this is "Never ending...." but judging by the latest comments and 225 pages and many thousands of points of view and replies

don't you think it might just be time to call it a day and as far as the restructuring is concerned just "suck it and see"

[Keith T]

That's 2015, Keith.

 

What's the Championship (for Dave's benefit) Grand Final Series for in 2014 ?  Some sort of sideshow ?

 

True.   I believe that there will be more interest at the bottom end of the Championship to see which 5, yes FIVE, teams get relegated.   That has to be a record for any sport surely?

[jpmc]

Sadly you've posted nonsense, and what's more you only had to ask me direct.

I'll be following Superleague on a season ticket at one club, visiting Bulls, farts, Wakey and cas as always, wathcing all TV games, enjoying the debates on here whilst annoying people, enjoying the politics of the game and watching the rise of some clubs and personalities and the inevitable falls of others.

I'll be in my 50th. year of loving this great game.

I was down watching LMU in the RL cup saturday, great game great club.

Yes I believe the salford soap opera will not have a great ending but then again soap operas need some light and shade to be interesting and good viewing.

Yes I believe the new structure is pants but so what. It'll be fun seeing if some of us are right or if the others are wrong. Once it's chucked out I reckon a fantastic new structure will come in, can't wait for this year? I can't wait for any year with R.L. in it.

Dont you watch Hunslet?

[gingerjon]

It has to be table toppers Griff as these figures are also to be used from 2015 onwards when the top 4 go on to meet the bottom 4 SL clubs with the only play-off for Championship clubs being the 5th to 12th teams for the Championship Shield.

 

Why does it have to be the table toppers?  It specifically refers to the top 2 in the Championship (clubs 3&4 in Tier 2 in 2015).  Could easily be the grand finalists.

 

And should be.

[Keith T]

Why does it have to be the table toppers?  It specifically refers to the top 2 in the Championship (clubs 3&4 in Tier 2 in 2015).  Could easily be the grand finalists.

 

And should be.

 

Because from 2015 there isn't a GF for the middle group of 8 where the top 4 Championship clubs go after the 23 league matches have been played.

[gingerjon]

Because from 2015 there isn't a GF for the middle group of 8 where the top 4 Championship clubs go after the 23 league matches have been played.

 

Are we at cross-purposes?  I thought you were discussing how the teams would be ranked for distribution at the start of the 2015 season.  That's based on finishing positions (including relegation) in 2014.

[The Parksider]

Dont you watch Hunslet?

 

Not that much. My lad is a Leeds fan.

[Keith T]

I think confusion is being made here with these posts.    The 2014 season is still covered by the licensing system until December 2014 and therefore the Championship is exactly the same as it has been during the licensing seasons prior to this one.

 

The finishing positions in the league this season will decide only the amount of funding in the 2015 season and which teams will be relegated.    The Grand Final will be played as normal with the same prize money as in previous years and this will be the last Grand Final for the Championship as there is no provision for it under the new system from 2015.   The policy document talks of Clubs 1 and 2 getting 50% (or very nearly) of SL clubs funding and all the other Tier 2 clubs will receive central distribution of funds with meritocratic payments to the 3rd and 4th placed teams.   

 

At the commencement of the 2015 season the two relegated teams will pick up the top two prizes of Tier 2 and what should have been going to the 3rd and 4th placed teams will be going to the teams that finished 1st and 2nd in the 2014 season.   Likewise the last placed team amount will go the club promoted from Championship 1.

 

Of course all of this may have altered quite significantly but that, I believe, is the basis of what the Championship clubs were agreeing to support and I don't think they meet again until later this month.

[Oxford]

Parksider 

Again not meant as an attack on you just the general trend of pessimism that seems to linger around our sport generally.Good that you're looking forward to the season  though! I don't have a clue how the Red Devils will go this year  but I am intrigued by the response overall to their change of fortune and the reactions to the good Doctor. There are people who have said so many similar things on this very website yet insults are often the only outcome for him. I know you think it will all come crashing down but I get the feeling that you and you're not alone want it to end badly and that's what I can't fathom at all. I also reacted to your misspelling of his name was that deliberate?

[The Parksider]

I believe eventually there will have to be less clubs, Which those clubs will be I don't know,, but It wont be the ones without any money.

 

I suspect we will never agree, so we will have to agree to differ

 

I don't think we differ much. We both believe there will have to be less clubs.

 

We both believe these clubs have to have money.

 

Where we wildly differ is the definition of having money. You think it's having a multi-millionaire owner.I think it's having a large fan base and many local businesses interested in the club

 

Which club is the richer one? One with empty stands and no academy,or one with 15,000 fans packed in and a vibrant player production line?. I think the latter.

 

Your accountancy seems such that just because the rich man has £Millions in the bank the club is rich. Please consider the salary cap, he can be no richer than that in his input - unless he spends well on his academy which he doesn't.

 

You seem to think going into administration means a club has no money. Bradford will have £1.800,000 a year from SKY more than the salary cap, Bradford will have big crowds whether 8,000 or 15,000. To paint them as having no money is wrong, they didn't  have enough money  because their fellow clubs took £1,200,000 off them. That's the truth of it.

 

Finally you take the stance that we should have less clubs but that if we cut the number of clubs fans "won't watch another club". How can you know the minds of tens of thousands of RL fans and assume they all think the same? We saw with Bradord that their "fans" in 1995 numbered an average of 5654.

 

Somehow they managed to attract another 10,000 fans and more? All Bradford born, never been outside of Bradford?

 

I'm fine to agree to disagree but the points  above are there to deal with if you wish.

Edited February 5, 2014 by The Parksider

[The Parksider]

Parksider 

 

Again not meant as an attack on 

 

I don't have a clue how the Red Devils will go this year  but I am intrigued by the response overall to their change of fortune and the reactions to the good Doctor. Insults are often the only outcome for him. I know you think it will all come crashing down but I get the feeling that you and you're not alone want it to end badly and that's what I can't fathom at all. I also reacted to your misspelling of his name was that deliberate?

 

Try again please.

 

I am not the one going round insulting Marwan Koucash?.

 

I do not "want it to end badly" where on earth do you get that rubbish from?

 

Your stance seems to be that I should be sat here wishing all clubs win the league, all 37 of them.

 

They won't, sport is about winners and losers, for every winner there is a loser, but apparently I'm not allowed to talk about who may be losers and if I do I apparently want them to lose.

 

Again you have told me what I think, when all you had to do was ask.

 

I think that mega rich men taking on clubs with few fans and little player development are more likely to be the losers because what people cannot get their head round is SKY are now paying the salary bills of the SL clubs. The RFL are currrently maintaining a £1.65 salary cap.

 

So if Mr. Koucash has £Billions to put into Salford he cannot do it. He says so himself. So how is he going to get them to the top as things stand??

[Griff]

Because from 2015 there isn't a GF for the middle group of 8 where the top 4 Championship clubs go after the 23 league matches have been played.

 

I have to agree with gingerjon.  Just because we change the structure in 2015 doesn't mean that we must go for the league placings in 2014.

 

On the one hand, we're telling the fans that the Grand Final is all-important.  On the other hand, money says it isn't.

 

It's traditional RL management - we can't make up our minds.

[GIANTSTRIDES]

I don't think we differ much. We both believe there will have to be less clubs.

 

We both believe these clubs have to have money.

 

Where we wildly differ is the definition of having money. You think it's having a multi-millionaire owner.I think it's having a large fan base and many local businesses interested in the club

 

Which club is the richer one? One with empty stands and no academy,or one with 15,000 fans packed in and a vibrant player production line?. I think the latter.

 

Your accountancy seems such that just because the rich man has £Millions in the bank the club is rich. Please consider the salary cap, he can be no richer than that in his input - unless he spends well on his academy which he doesn't.

 

You seem to think going into administration means a club has no money. Bradford will have £1.800,000 a year from SKY more than the salary cap, Bradford will have big crowds whether 8,000 or 15,000. To paint them as having no money is wrong, they didn't  have enough money  because their fellow clubs took £1,200,000 off them. That's the truth of it.

 

Finally you take the stance that we should have less clubs but that if we cut the number of clubs fans "won't watch another club". How can you know the minds of tens of thousands of RL fans and assume they all think the same? We saw with Bradord that their "fans" in 1995 numbered an average of 5654.

 

Somehow they managed to attract another 10,000 fans and more? All Bradford born, never been outside of Bradford?

 

I'm fine to agree to disagree but the points  above are there to deal with if you wish.

 

Well we aren't that far apart in our end game, but you keep on taking what i say i think will happen, as what i want to happen, They are two very different things.

 

I believe somewhere down the line, (maybe after my time and yours ) that Clubs will have to reduce, whether there are mergers or not, but i expect it to have more to do with money and being able to keep standards up than the size of crowds. 

 

You know as well as i do that in the real world of League, Sky are funding it, Till they came along Wigan won everything for a decade, the rest were also ran's.

 

The latest deal is reportedly £200.000000, Now you tell me in your honest opinion, Do you really think Sky care what Bradfords ( or anyone elses crowd is ) They are paying that kind of money to sell dishes, not cause they love Rugby league. For that  money they want as many as poss  sat in front of the telly, with your Direct debit ticking along. Very cynical ? maybe ,but It's what's happening.

I agree that the clubs with big crowds will still be the bigger clubs because of the extra revenue, but thats fine they deserve to be.

 

I agree with you about Bradford, If they had a money man and a half decent stadium, they could be right up there with the best, ( they have been ) But at this moment in time they don't have either one , and so unless that changes they will always struggle,  The upkeep of the ground alone must be daunting.

 

In the future it will be the clubs who Know how to market themselves, How to get in big paying sponsers, how to make their clubs ,like Wigan or Leeds if you like, And I'm not saying Fartown will be one of them. Wolves and Saints are getting there, Despite being close together. Hull have every chance, Catalan are growing,

 

Big crowds are very desirable, but they are by no means essential, The future will be about getting to the levels of the Aussies, On the field and off it, It will not be easy because of Soccer, But it will either go forward with people like IL or it will go nowhere like it was when Sky came along, Just my opinion , and it may not be what we all want , But it's what Sky want that matters, they more or less own the game now.

 

Regards Salford and the Dr, I don't know how they will go, I hope they go well, They will certainly be better than they were, If they compete well and are good to watch, that will do me, If the Dr pulls out a few years down the track , So what ! they will have had some good years and they can start up again like any other club.

[keighley]

Try again please.

 

I am not the one going round insulting Marwan Koucash?.

 

I do not "want it to end badly" where on earth do you get that rubbish from?

 

Your stance seems to be that I should be sat here wishing all clubs win the league, all 37 of them.

 

They won't, sport is about winners and losers, for every winner there is a loser, but apparently I'm not allowed to talk about who may be losers and if I do I apparently want them to lose.

 

Again you have told me what I think, when all you had to do was ask.

 

I think that mega rich men taking on clubs with few fans and little player development are more likely to be the losers because what people cannot get their head round is SKY are now paying the salary bills of the SL clubs. The RFL are currrently maintaining a £1.65 salary cap.

 

So if Mr. Koucash has £Billions to put into Salford he cannot do it. He says so himself. So how is he going to get them to the top as things stand??

 

Sport is indeed about winners and losers. You seem to want the current winners to remain the current winners into the foreseeable future and have no time for the list of winners to change.  If your approach was to be the norm and we were in the 1960's, you would be in favour of retaining Swinton in SL/1st Division because they are a big team ( Champions, big round, decent crowds ).

 

Clearly Swinton crashed and burned because they didn't do the work necessary to remain at the top but your approach would have had then ring fenced because they were big in that present.

 

You are taking the same approach now in your defence of the Bulls. You picked a moment in time when they were top dogs and want them retained at the top for ever because of that success.  

 

Salford and Huddersfield and Widnes have improved for the cellar to the top level but because they were not elite at the time Bradford and Leeds and Wigan were, in your slice of time that set the makeup of SL for all time they are not big clubs and are in a false position because they have investors. Oh please.

 

Winners change and losers become loser and vice versa.

 

We need real  and r to enable this natural evolution of winners and losers to take place easier. 

[Oxford]

"I do not "want it to end badly" where on earth do you get that rubbish from?"  I am glad about that! Did you not say it will not end well at least once?

"I am not the one going round insulting Marwan Koucash" - Again the misspelling I asked you about !

 

I don't think I accused you personally of attacking the good doctor and if I did that was completely unintentional and not the aim of what I wrote!

 

I do find much criticism of SRD and MK to be questionable and I find it hard to understand what motivates people in this direction??

[Rover and out]

Check out how it's to be funded Griff, two SL clubs to drop to the championship and with parachute payments to be given and another half a million to be given them if they then finish first or second they should be the ones in pole position to get back there.

Check out the funding for the current CC clubs likely to be 3-12. Peanuts in comparison, awful deal for the Championship clubs IMHO however I'll let your well honed financial mind makes it's own judgement....

But you've just pointed out that if hunslet had a millionaire backer it wouldn't make a difference as they'd still be restricted to whatever they could spend with the salary cap so surely the two relegated teams won't be able to spend any more than the rest of the championship so it wouldn't give them any advantage in getting promoted.

And on the point of millionaire owners being bad for the game, it all depends how the money is spent, for example Moran at Warrington has spent money investing in their academy which has helped as we are now seeing a lot more Warrington juniors playing in sl. To a lesser extent Campbell and nahaboo at Fev are investing in facilities at the ground with the new stand being built and also with new training facilities and more coaches so that the club can bring through more home grown players. Hopefully this sort of investment will help Fev if we ever get sl as would mean we wouldn't have to chuck money at other teams and steal academy lads off cas wakey.

I know wait for you to tell me how I'm wrong and it's bad for the game and how nahaboo should have gone wot wakey with his money

[The Parksider]

I don't think I accused you personally of attacking the good doctor and if I did that was completely unintentional and not the aim of what I wrote!

 

I do find much criticism of SRD and MK to be questionable and I find it hard to understand what motivates people in this direction??

 

I'll be cheering from the rooftops if Salford came to Headingley and did Leeds. I haven't seen that since David Ward's Leeds were done many years ago. I recall getting in free at half time after we'd been away and I got back for the second half. I'm a big supporter of the "underdog" then and nowadays so I naturally hate Wigan and want their world to come crashing down. I loathe HKR by the way.

 

That's sport in it's entertainment/pleasure sense, but when the last ball is kicked I like many others on here feel that Salford need to get their fanbase back up and develop junior RL around the M60. It's a big enough place and all roads lead to Barton. There is no option to pay 17 of the worlds best RL players £half a million a year and compensate their clubs to the tune of the same sum.

 

So maybe the less than ecstatic welcome for the doctor is based on him wanting to smash the salary cap, create wage inflation and tell all us fools we have it wrong. You deduce I want him to fail because of that?

 

Well flip it over, look at the other side of things. He's saved Salford from death and created tremendous interest so maybe that outweighs the negatives for me.

Edited February 6, 2014 by The Parksider

[The Parksider]

1. But you've just pointed out that if hunslet had a millionaire backer it wouldn't make a difference as they'd still be restricted to whatever they could spend with the salary cap so surely the two relegated teams won't be able to spend any more than the rest of the championship so it wouldn't give them any advantage in getting promoted.

 

2. And on the point of millionaire owners being bad for the game, it all depends how the money is spent, for example Moran at Warrington has spent money investing in their academy which has helped as we are now seeing a lot more Warrington juniors playing in sl. To a lesser extent Campbell and nahaboo at Fev are investing in facilities at the ground with the new stand being built and also with new training facilities and more coaches so that the club can bring through more home grown players.

 

Well I do not think that SL2 will be operating on a £300K salary cap Mr. Out. I've made an assumption that won't be the case, you've assumed it will. For me they cannot set up a P & R system then load it such that no movement can happen at all.

 

I know Mr. Moran is a Millionaire many times over. He's picked up a big club in Wire, and they have a new ground and have had investment in the junior side of things, and they have attracted many more fans and done the game proud.

 

But his personal financial status is mostly irrelevant to what he's done, what is relevant is Warrington as a big club with big potential have had the required investment to get them up there with Leeds. Wigan and Saints. They now contribute a high level of RL, big crowds and junior development.

 

I personally want that elsewhere to boost the game, and just because an owner is a £Millionaire doesn't mean he'll invest in the things that can develop the club into a true Superleague giant, or that investment will work. He may be lazy and just look to buy up a team and discount tickets to buy a crowd.

 

I find it frustrating when small clubs get investment from rich people that bears little fruit like at Huddersfield, and maybe Salford, when nobody picks up Wakefield and Bradford. I've nothing against any club or rich owner etc. I simply want Superleague to be the strongest it can. That means if investment is going in it needs to be the right clubs.

 

That's why my structure would be to have one club with the strongest potential per region in SL and that's that. If millionaires want in pick a club free to invest in pick one of these. Don't pick up Hunslet and fight Leeds for the resources. 

 

In our game this is self destructive IMVHO, in soccer they just ship the worlds best players in and the fans come wherever. I just want to see the strongest SL was can.

[The Parksider]

You know as well as i do that in the real world of League, Sky are funding it, Till they came along Wigan won everything for a decade, the rest were also ran's.

 

The latest deal is reportedly £200.000000, Now you tell me in your honest opinion, Do you really think Sky care what Bradfords ( or anyone elses crowd is ) They are paying that kind of money to sell dishes, not cause they love Rugby league.

 

I agree with you about Bradford, If they had a money man and a half decent stadium, they could be right up there with the best, ( they have been ) But at this moment in time they don't have either one , and so unless that changes they will always struggle,  The upkeep of the ground alone must be daunting.

 

Big crowds are very desirable, but they are by no means essential, The future will be about getting to the levels of the Aussies, On the field and off it,

 

Thank you for replying.

 

I know that the SKY contract is just to stick a load of RL on telly to sell adverts in between the action. But does that mean it doesn't matter that many of clubs don't have much of a physical audience??

 

Physical interest by people in RL means they start to get interested in playing and forming Junior clubs. Why do Wigan have such a strong junior scene if not for the fact they've had 14,000 people interested in the club for what 30 years?? Why is junior RL growing strongly in Leeds? Is it baecause they've had big crowds for 25 years? Does it help to get kids playing and dads organising if the local SL club are a big attractive one?

 

You say the future is getting to the  levels of the NRL/Aussies. Why are they strong?? Is it because SKY pay £Millions for their clubs to play in half empty stadia?? Or is it because the game has a much bigger standing amongst the public themselves who in turn pay to watch, and organise their kids to play.

 

You say a club will "always struggle" without a rich mans subsidies. For me that's not true at all.

 

Leeds don't struggle, Caddick puts little in. Saints and Wigan struggle no more and their chairmen are keen to not be cash cows. Same at Hull, Pearson aims for a break even business. You discount the new TV deal and the TV money taken off Bradford - why would they now struggle??

 

My case is RL needs investment into the biggest clubs to attract maximum direct physical interest in the game to them, to in turn grow the local infrastructure of our game. Fartown play Wigan tomorrow, between them they mopped up the three trophies. Leeds and Salford will be busting a gut to change that.

 

You tell me  honestly that there'd be no difference difference between an SL of 12 Wigans/Leeds type clubs against an SL of 12 Fartown/salford type clubs????